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battlehawk1025
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Posted: 10/10/2012 11:04:39 AM
[Last Edit: 10/10/2012 11:29:45 AM by battlehawk1025]
I'm doing a FOIA on our m16. Got me wondering did colt ever sell the M16 directly to civilians? before the registry closed. LIke NIB or all the ones in circulation from dept guns?
Thanks
TriggerFish
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Posted: 10/10/2012 11:39:24 AM
[Last Edit: 10/10/2012 11:44:46 AM by TriggerFish]
Tony will be along shortly (if he hasn't already beat my sloooow typing!)... but sort of in my case. In 1979 the Alyeska Pipeline Co. went to Colt to buy a buttload (technical term) of AR-15 rifles for their private security guards along the route of the pipeline. Colt somehow convinced them to get M16A1s instead. Maybe Colt had too many MGs left over from the ending of Vietnam and made the boys at Alyeska a deal they couldn't refuse. They shipped pallet loads (from a FOIA request I got) in '79 of M16A1 assault rifles with only semi-auto selectors installed. My theory on this was A.P.C. did not want bored pipeline guards, in the middle of nowhere, "greasing" bears with machine guns for sh!ts and grins. In '02 my LGS/Title II dealer got 10 of them in from A.P.C. and I picked one up. Looking back, a pristine-never-fired-in-full-auto M16A1, I should have bought them all.

$7200 ea.
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battlehawk1025
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Posted: 10/10/2012 11:54:26 AM
Originally Posted By TriggerFish:
Tony will be along shortly (if he hasn't already beat my sloooow typing!)... but sort of in my case. In 1979 the Alyeska Pipeline Co. went to Colt to buy a buttload (technical term) of AR-15 rifles for their private security guards along the route of the pipeline. Colt somehow convinced them to get M16A1s instead. Maybe Colt had too many MGs left over from the ending of Vietnam and made the boys at Alyeska a deal they couldn't refuse. They shipped pallet loads (from a FOIA request I got) in '79 of M16A1 assault rifles with only semi-auto selectors installed. My theory on this was A.P.C. did not want bored pipeline guards, in the middle of nowhere, "greasing" bears with machine guns for sh!ts and grins. In '02 my LGS/Title II dealer got 10 of them in from A.P.C. and I picked one up. Looking back, a pristine-never-fired-in-full-auto M16A1, I should have bought them all.
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c314/Z06M16A1/Title%202%20Toys/79right.jpg
$7200 ea.


Nice. Gives me some incite of how the got to civilian hands. Just wondering if they ever sold them directly to civilians.
tony_k
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Posted: 10/10/2012 12:38:32 PM
Colt's official policy was that their NFA items were for sale only to military/law enforcement. They went so far as to threaten to drop LE dealers and distributors who sold to civilians.

Of course, a few "slipped through the cracks" from dealers to their best customers, but Colt would raise a stink if any dealers advertised they had new ones for sale to us regular folk.

That's why so many M16s are ex-LE, and so few are still NIB.
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sardo_67
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Posted: 10/10/2012 7:34:15 PM
did colt ever sell full auto AR-15 or SP1s or are all of the Colt non m-16s conversions after they were sold as title 1 guns?
I did love my job, working hard is what K9s do…. I was born for it, I lived for it, and died for it; for my country….but mostly for you.
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Posted: 10/10/2012 7:46:29 PM
Originally Posted By TriggerFish:
Tony will be along shortly (if he hasn't already beat my sloooow typing!)... but sort of in my case. In 1979 the Alyeska Pipeline Co. went to Colt to buy a buttload (technical term) of AR-15 rifles for their private security guards along the route of the pipeline. Colt somehow convinced them to get M16A1s instead. Maybe Colt had too many MGs left over from the ending of Vietnam and made the boys at Alyeska a deal they couldn't refuse. They shipped pallet loads (from a FOIA request I got) in '79 of M16A1 assault rifles with only semi-auto selectors installed. My theory on this was A.P.C. did not want bored pipeline guards, in the middle of nowhere, "greasing" bears with machine guns for sh!ts and grins. In '02 my LGS/Title II dealer got 10 of them in from A.P.C. and I picked one up. Looking back, a pristine-never-fired-in-full-auto M16A1, I should have bought them all.
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c314/Z06M16A1/Title%202%20Toys/79right.jpg
$7200 ea.


I would buy it for that price! Sell it to me!
tony_k
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Posted: 10/10/2012 9:53:47 PM
Originally Posted By sardo_67:
did colt ever sell full auto AR-15 or SP1s or are all of the Colt non m-16s conversions after they were sold as title 1 guns?

For clarity's sake ...

Gene Stoner designed the AR15 as a full-auto (or select-fire) rifle for Armalite, which later sold the rights to Colt. Colt produced it and convinced the U.S.military to try out limited numbers in Vietnam. When it was accepted, the military designated it as the M16, though many thousands were sold to .gov and issued still wearing the "AR15" rollmark. Only later did Colt (and then H&R and Hydramatic) change the rollmark to M16 etc. Even after that, some foreign contracts for select-fire guns continued to be rollmarked "AR15".

Years later, Colt decided to develop and market a semi-auto version for sale to civilians. These also were rollmarked AR15 but, of course, only had two selector positions, and the serial numbers started with "SP."

Colt never sold a full-auto SP version, nor did they ever convert a semi SP to full-auto –– their lawyers would not let them for liability reasons. So if it has an SP serial number, it left Colt as a semi, and was later converted to FA by a third party.
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timkel
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Posted: 10/11/2012 7:24:05 AM

Originally Posted By tony_k:
Colt's official policy was that their NFA items were for sale only to military/law enforcement. They went so far as to threaten to drop LE dealers and distributors who sold to civilians.

Of course, a few "slipped through the cracks" from dealers to their best customers, but Colt would raise a stink if any dealers advertised they had new ones for sale to us regular folk.

That's why so many M16s are ex-LE, and so few are still NIB.

This is the way I remember it.
Dedeye
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Posted: 10/11/2012 7:35:19 AM
When I bought my 16, the dealer and I shared a laugh at the way he had to lie his ass off to Colt in order to get guns to sell. They were adamant that none of their M16s would go to civilians, even though it was perfectly legal so he assured them that each and every one of them went to LE. Actually that was true in my case, but probably not the way Colt wanted it.

They still hold the title of "World's Most Anti-gun Gun Company" in my opinion.
TriggerFish
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Posted: 10/11/2012 10:39:20 AM
[Last Edit: 10/11/2012 10:39:40 AM by TriggerFish]
Originally Posted By Dedeye:

They still hold the title of "World's Most Anti-gun Gun Company" in my opinion.


With Ruger (when 'ol Bill was still above dirt and in charge) right up there with Colt... re: AC556/GB/Mini 20 rnd (and above) mags.
He is probably spinning in the box with the newer rifles/products.

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Dedeye
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Posted: 10/11/2012 6:51:57 PM
Yeah, Ruger used to give Colt a run for the title, but with Bill taking the Big Dirt Nap, they have gotten much more reasonable.

I can only imagine his reaction to his guns being offered with factory threading for EVIL SILENCERS!!!!!

Fuck you, Bill. Rot in peace.
sardo_67
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Posted: 10/11/2012 10:49:45 PM
Originally Posted By Dedeye:
When I bought my 16, the dealer and I shared a laugh at the way he had to lie his ass off to Colt in order to get guns to sell. They were adamant that none of their M16s would go to civilians, even though it was perfectly legal so he assured them that each and every one of them went to LE. Actually that was true in my case, but probably not the way Colt wanted it.

They still hold the title of "World's Most Anti-gun Gun Company" in my opinion.


ahhhhh i wish i was around back in the day haha. did that rifle cost any more than the semi version back in the day?
I did love my job, working hard is what K9s do…. I was born for it, I lived for it, and died for it; for my country….but mostly for you.
IDD Sgt Streaker (R556) KIA 11-15-2011 Helmand Afg
tony_k
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Posted: 10/11/2012 11:09:57 PM
[Last Edit: 10/11/2012 11:11:46 PM by tony_k]
Originally Posted By sardo_67:
Originally Posted By Dedeye:
When I bought my 16, the dealer and I shared a laugh at the way he had to lie his ass off to Colt in order to get guns to sell. They were adamant that none of their M16s would go to civilians, even though it was perfectly legal so he assured them that each and every one of them went to LE. Actually that was true in my case, but probably not the way Colt wanted it.

They still hold the title of "World's Most Anti-gun Gun Company" in my opinion.


ahhhhh i wish i was around back in the day haha. did that rifle cost any more than the semi version back in the day?


This may sound really weird to ya ... But back in the '70s, M16s were worth less than semi versions, because of the $200 transfer tax. I remember folks cutting and demilling receivers because they could not find a buyer willing to pay that tax, and the only way to sell them was as parts kits.

Sigh.
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collegeboy
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Posted: 10/11/2012 11:56:23 PM
Originally Posted By tony_k:
Originally Posted By sardo_67:
Originally Posted By Dedeye:
When I bought my 16, the dealer and I shared a laugh at the way he had to lie his ass off to Colt in order to get guns to sell. They were adamant that none of their M16s would go to civilians, even though it was perfectly legal so he assured them that each and every one of them went to LE. Actually that was true in my case, but probably not the way Colt wanted it.

They still hold the title of "World's Most Anti-gun Gun Company" in my opinion.


ahhhhh i wish i was around back in the day haha. did that rifle cost any more than the semi version back in the day?


This may sound really weird to ya ... But back in the '70s, M16s were worth less than semi versions, because of the $200 transfer tax. I remember folks cutting and demilling receivers because they could not find a buyer willing to pay that tax, and the only way to sell them was as parts kits.

Sigh.


WTF

jbntex
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Posted: 10/12/2012 1:28:49 AM
Originally Posted By tony_k:
Originally Posted By sardo_67:
Originally Posted By Dedeye:
When I bought my 16, the dealer and I shared a laugh at the way he had to lie his ass off to Colt in order to get guns to sell. They were adamant that none of their M16s would go to civilians, even though it was perfectly legal so he assured them that each and every one of them went to LE. Actually that was true in my case, but probably not the way Colt wanted it.

They still hold the title of "World's Most Anti-gun Gun Company" in my opinion.


ahhhhh i wish i was around back in the day haha. did that rifle cost any more than the semi version back in the day?


This may sound really weird to ya ... But back in the '70s, M16s were worth less than semi versions, because of the $200 transfer tax. I remember folks cutting and demilling receivers because they could not find a buyer willing to pay that tax, and the only way to sell them was as parts kits.

Sigh.


You don't even have to go back that far to when M16s were worth less than some of their semi counterparts. When I first started getting into NFA back in the late 90's and it was the height of the 94 AWB and the panic buying leading up to the W2K scare, nice preban semi Colts (like factory 6721s) and even some preban Bushmasters in good condition commanded more of a premium than lower end M16's. I remember looking at lightning links for $1500, and non Colt M16s in the 3K range. When I bought my first M16 in 2001 (an oly registered receiver) it was about the same price as a highly valued preban semi-auto at $3500ish dollars.

I remember thinking at the time it was stupid for somebody to pay upwards of $5000 for a preban Colt 6721 or a OA93, when they could just buy a lighting link for $1500 and build up a preban style gun out of post-ban parts for less than a grand, since the whole gun was no longer a semi-auto "assault weapon" but now a machinegun. You would get a brand new gun with all the evil features for less than a preban semi counterpart and would get full auto on top of that.

Alot of that pricing disparity back then was probably because trust transfer didn't exist and very few people knew about or wanted to go through the trouble to form and maintain a corporation. The overall segment of black rifle owning public was much smaller, so your pool of available buyers for M16s was much reduced. Vector also had a mountain of Uzi's for sale at $2500 to $2900 until maybe 03 or 04 which probably depressed the overall machinegun market for quite a few years as many first time buyer just purchased an Uzi over an M16.
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Posted: 10/12/2012 8:44:04 AM
Originally Posted By sardo_67:
Originally Posted By Dedeye:
When I bought my 16, the dealer and I shared a laugh at the way he had to lie his ass off to Colt in order to get guns to sell. They were adamant that none of their M16s would go to civilians, even though it was perfectly legal so he assured them that each and every one of them went to LE. Actually that was true in my case, but probably not the way Colt wanted it.

They still hold the title of "World's Most Anti-gun Gun Company" in my opinion.


ahhhhh i wish i was around back in the day haha. did that rifle cost any more than the semi version back in the day?


I have no idea what semi's were going for back then, but the 16 cost me a whole $600 NIB.

I wonder how much of a loss I'll take when I sell it.......
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Posted: 10/12/2012 11:53:03 AM
[Last Edit: 10/12/2012 1:13:43 PM by cyborg543]
Originally Posted By Dedeye:
Originally Posted By sardo_67:
Originally Posted By Dedeye:
When I bought my 16, the dealer and I shared a laugh at the way he had to lie his ass off to Colt in order to get guns to sell. They were adamant that none of their M16s would go to civilians, even though it was perfectly legal so he assured them that each and every one of them went to LE. Actually that was true in my case, but probably not the way Colt wanted it.

They still hold the title of "World's Most Anti-gun Gun Company" in my opinion.


ahhhhh i wish i was around back in the day haha. did that rifle cost any more than the semi version back in the day?


I have no idea what semi's were going for back then, but the 16 cost me a whole $600 NIB.

I wonder how much of a loss I'll take when I sell it.......



Wonder no more my fine friend. $650 is yours for the asking.

That's 8.3% profit, no small potaters in this down economy
sardo_67
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Posted: 10/12/2012 1:16:24 PM
Originally Posted By Dedeye:
Originally Posted By sardo_67:
Originally Posted By Dedeye:
When I bought my 16, the dealer and I shared a laugh at the way he had to lie his ass off to Colt in order to get guns to sell. They were adamant that none of their M16s would go to civilians, even though it was perfectly legal so he assured them that each and every one of them went to LE. Actually that was true in my case, but probably not the way Colt wanted it.

They still hold the title of "World's Most Anti-gun Gun Company" in my opinion.

ahhhhh i wish iwas around back in the day haha. did that rifle cost any more than the semi version back in the day?

I have no idea what semi's were going for back then, but the 16 cost me a whole $600 NIB.
I wonder how much of a loss I'll take when I sell it.......


since you are in CT yours is truly irreplaceable since it's still "select fire" hahah
i'd love to shoot it some time since CT isn't that big a place

as for the other mentioned pre-bans, is that what they were going for during the fed ban? we still have that faggotry here in CT with average lower price of $500-650 as normal but WOW that's just stupid.
i too would have just gotten a machine gun in stead, well if i was aware of it anyway. besides those are 100% pre-ban hahah
I did love my job, working hard is what K9s do…. I was born for it, I lived for it, and died for it; for my country….but mostly for you.
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Posted: 10/12/2012 2:10:56 PM
Originally Posted By sardo_67:
as for the other mentioned pre-bans, is that what they were going for during the fed ban? we still have that faggotry here in CT with average lower price of $500-650 as normal but WOW that's just stupid.


In 2003, pre-ban complete rifles were going for $1500-$2000, with an occasional bargain here and there to be found. Not sure what they got like in 2004, because I was confident the ban was going to be allowed to sunset, so didn't track any prices.
"The only real difference between the men and the boys, is the number and size, and cost of their toys."
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Posted: 10/12/2012 5:04:02 PM
The peak was right before W2K when everybody had to have an AR because the end of the world was coming. The most expensive were those 130ish preban Colt 6721s rollmarked (AR15 A3 Tactical Carbine) which commanded upward of 5K or more. Low volume stuff like OA93 pistols were also really expensive.

New in box Colts between the green and blue label generation that had a mix of more desirable traits found in blue labels like small front pushpin, fence, black annodizing but with green lable traits like no sear block, standard fire control pins, factory bayo lug were next in line along with bushy's. The less desirable and more common Colts which were rollmarked "Sporter" and had a bunch of undesireable characterists like sear blocks, no fence, and a big front pin, light gray annodizin, etc were worth markedly less.

I bought a well used preban Oly carbine (bottom of the totem pole) in 99 and it was $1500, which was a fair deal at the time.

I had a LNIB box Colt Lightweight with small push pin, normal sized trigger pins, but with a one side pinned sear block and paid about $2500 for it in 2001. Sold the Colt and the Oly for close to what I paid for them to fund my Oly registered receiver acouple years later.

After W2K calmed down and GW was elected prices started stabilizing and then coming down. As time went on and the odds of the ban getting renewed became less and less as each year passed prices continued to fall as folks like myself started unloaded preban gear, like Colts and CMAGs.

However, I still have at least a dozen NIW preban $125 dollar plastic ramline 50rd 10/22 mags if anybody is interested.
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Posted: 10/12/2012 6:08:42 PM
[Last Edit: 10/12/2012 6:09:23 PM by cyborg543]
Actually the ironic thing is that post-ban ARs are a pretty good configuration.

Almost liike a semi-target version.

Of course the law was absurd and aside from being a disgusting infringement of our rights, also had no effect on crime.

Just a complete failure all around. Totally incompetent lawmaking.

Actually it did have the positive effect of making about 1 million new members join the NRA
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Posted: 10/13/2012 12:37:14 PM
I must say I really enjoy reading your conversations, I'm only 25 so I had no chance of ever picking up a cheap full auto. I dream to one day be able to purchase a rr or Uzi, but I find it so interesting to read that prices for these guns used to be so cheap. Thanks for the info that you all always provide to us younger generation of shooters...
tony_k
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Posted: 10/13/2012 1:49:19 PM
Originally Posted By collegeboy:
Originally Posted By tony_k:
Originally Posted By sardo_67:
Originally Posted By Dedeye:
When I bought my 16, the dealer and I shared a laugh at the way he had to lie his ass off to Colt in order to get guns to sell. They were adamant that none of their M16s would go to civilians, even though it was perfectly legal so he assured them that each and every one of them went to LE. Actually that was true in my case, but probably not the way Colt wanted it.

They still hold the title of "World's Most Anti-gun Gun Company" in my opinion.


ahhhhh i wish i was around back in the day haha. did that rifle cost any more than the semi version back in the day?


This may sound really weird to ya ... But back in the '70s, M16s were worth less than semi versions, because of the $200 transfer tax. I remember folks cutting and demilling receivers because they could not find a buyer willing to pay that tax, and the only way to sell them was as parts kits.

Sigh.


WTF


The '70s were a really different world. Just as today, most gun ranges would not allow full-auto. And MGs (and NFA) were generally ignored by gun magazines, reflecting the Fudd theory that "nobody needs those things." And don't forget that the only way to legally buy ammo was in stores, and you were limited to what your local gun store had in inventory (GCA '68 banned mail-order sales of ammo).

Finally, there was no such thing as the internet. If you wanted to find out about machine guns, you headed to your local library. If you wanted to meet other MG owners, you pretty much had to ask around at ranges and gun stores ... and just as today, a stranger asking who owned MGs usually got the "nobody owns them, kid. Get outa here" response from longtime MG owners.

Some were lucky enough to find a copy of Shotgun News, maybe hear about the one big MG shoot (Knob Creek) and make a pilgrimage. But most would-be MG fans couldn't just drop everything and drive across the country, to find someone to talk to.

Thus, a whole lot of registered machine guns were simply destroyed, when the owners died or had to relocate to a non-MG state. There was no place to sell them (most newspapers refused to list machine guns in the classifieds) and no way to reach potential buyers. Shops wouldn't take them because you can't consign NFA, you have to buy it and pay the $200 transfer tax to the dealer; thus, the FFL would have the cost he paid you, plus the $200 to get it ... and then he had to find someone who actually wanted to buy it after hearing, "What!?!?! There's a $200 federal tax on this? No way."

Like I said, a really weird world back then. Without the internet as an information resource and contact point for NFA fans to meet, you were pretty much on your own, unless someone in your family was into MGs (in that way, I was lucky). And through them, I did meet other MG owners ... and, unfortunately, many ex-owners selling parts kits that used to be transferable guns. Sigh.

HTH.
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TriggerFish
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Posted: 10/13/2012 3:57:15 PM
I really gotta get back to working on that time machine.
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Posted: 10/13/2012 7:39:19 PM
Originally Posted By TriggerFish:
I really gotta get back to working on that time machine.


Let me know when you figure it out.
GRATIOFLASH
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Posted: 10/13/2012 10:52:14 PM
So Tony, I've heard you refer to guys cutting up MGs so they could sell them as parts kits, my question is, are those guns still on the registry? Or have they been deducted from the total that the ATF says is out there?
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