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Posted: 12/12/2012 9:21:02 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Not considering any sort of government bans. Unless ATF cracks down on issuing SOTs, that will cap prices. Not to mention people with enough money will just become friends with their local LEOs or go overseas and shoot god knows what with a friendly 3rd world general. Also at some point, you won't find anyone willing to weld on a $80k receiver, therefore people will stop shooting them which will stunt any further appreciation. Ultimately though, I think the country is going to go a lot more left in the future, I think we have seen a peak in pro gun feelings and enthusiasm. Plus another 10-20 years of technology combined with lousy economic growth, leaving the house paying $4 a gallon gas to sit at a range to blast expensive ammo surrounded by dust and loud noises will seem so foreign when you can just ride the couch and plug into the iholobrain for cheap. As far as the olden days go, I didn't see any mentioned ammo costs. From what I understand, unadjusted for inflation, ammo prices in the early 80s are pretty much the same as today. Also, this may be hard to understand for the facebook generation, but people didn't want to fill out government forms and let people know their business. Heck even in the early 90s in Texas, you could go to two or three wellstocked gunshops and maybe see one AR15. I went to a fair number of gunshows in Texas in the early and mid 90s, I can only remember seeing one table with NFA weapons. I agree with some you are saying, but this is just incorrect. A lot of the public and the government may be going left, but guns are more popular now than ever period. It has not peaked out and it is growing more and more every single day. Go to any gun shop, turn on the Discovery channel, go to Walmart, just talk to people.....you'll see it. So many people that even look and sound anti gun...aren't at all, and have CHLs and own 5 guns. It's great. The left and the government are trying to take them away, but guns are just plain growing in popularity at an exponential rate right now, and it has not peaked yet, nor do I think it will peak for a while. Of course, in the end no one knows, and these are just my opinions. |
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Posted: 12/13/2012 12:08:44 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Not considering any sort of government bans. Unless ATF cracks down on issuing SOTs, that will cap prices. Not to mention people with enough money will just become friends with their local LEOs or go overseas and shoot god knows what with a friendly 3rd world general. Also at some point, you won't find anyone willing to weld on a $80k receiver, therefore people will stop shooting them which will stunt any further appreciation. Ultimately though, I think the country is going to go a lot more left in the future, I think we have seen a peak in pro gun feelings and enthusiasm. Plus another 10-20 years of technology combined with lousy economic growth, leaving the house paying $4 a gallon gas to sit at a range to blast expensive ammo surrounded by dust and loud noises will seem so foreign when you can just ride the couch and plug into the iholobrain for cheap. As far as the olden days go, I didn't see any mentioned ammo costs. From what I understand, unadjusted for inflation, ammo prices in the early 80s are pretty much the same as today. Also, this may be hard to understand for the facebook generation, but people didn't want to fill out government forms and let people know their business. Heck even in the early 90s in Texas, you could go to two or three wellstocked gunshops and maybe see one AR15. I went to a fair number of gunshows in Texas in the early and mid 90s, I can only remember seeing one table with NFA weapons. I agree with some you are saying, but this is just incorrect. A lot of the public and the government may be going left, but guns are more popular now than ever period. It has not peaked out and it is growing more and more every single day. Go to any gun shop, turn on the Discovery channel, go to Walmart, just talk to people.....you'll see it. So many people that even look and sound anti gun...aren't at all, and have CHLs and own 5 guns. It's great. The left and the government are trying to take them away, but guns are just plain growing in popularity at an exponential rate right now, and it has not peaked yet, nor do I think it will peak for a while. Of course, in the end no one knows, and these are just my opinions. You are correct. Until the mid-80s, ammo prices were much much higher in inflation adjusted dollars. This made full-autos a rich man's game even back then. |
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Posted: 12/14/2012 9:17:20 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Not considering any sort of government bans. Unless ATF cracks down on issuing SOTs, that will cap prices. Not to mention people with enough money will just become friends with their local LEOs or go overseas and shoot god knows what with a friendly 3rd world general. Also at some point, you won't find anyone willing to weld on a $80k receiver, therefore people will stop shooting them which will stunt any further appreciation. Ultimately though, I think the country is going to go a lot more left in the future, I think we have seen a peak in pro gun feelings and enthusiasm. Plus another 10-20 years of technology combined with lousy economic growth, leaving the house paying $4 a gallon gas to sit at a range to blast expensive ammo surrounded by dust and loud noises will seem so foreign when you can just ride the couch and plug into the iholobrain for cheap. As far as the olden days go, I didn't see any mentioned ammo costs. From what I understand, unadjusted for inflation, ammo prices in the early 80s are pretty much the same as today. Also, this may be hard to understand for the facebook generation, but people didn't want to fill out government forms and let people know their business. Heck even in the early 90s in Texas, you could go to two or three wellstocked gunshops and maybe see one AR15. I went to a fair number of gunshows in Texas in the early and mid 90s, I can only remember seeing one table with NFA weapons. I agree with some you are saying, but this is just incorrect. A lot of the public and the government may be going left, but guns are more popular now than ever period. It has not peaked out and it is growing more and more every single day. Go to any gun shop, turn on the Discovery channel, go to Walmart, just talk to people.....you'll see it. So many people that even look and sound anti gun...aren't at all, and have CHLs and own 5 guns. It's great. The left and the government are trying to take them away, but guns are just plain growing in popularity at an exponential rate right now, and it has not peaked yet, nor do I think it will peak for a while. Of course, in the end no one knows, and these are just my opinions. You are correct. Until the mid-80s, ammo prices were much much higher in inflation adjusted dollars. This made full-autos a rich man's game even back then. until the 1986 FOPA you had to buy all ammo in person which also made the prices higher since places like AIM could not ship cases to your house as i know now all online places have much much better prices than any store i've seen |
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Posted: 12/15/2012 4:09:48 AM EDT
[#4]
Not to get too far off the subject, but why isn't there any more surplus 5.56 like there was in the early 2000s? I'm 26, & when I turned 18 in 04, there was Guatemalan, South African, British Radway Green, South Korean, etc., and they were cheap. Is it because so many more people have ARs, or do those countries just not have anymore surplus?
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Posted: 12/16/2012 7:33:02 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Not to get too far off the subject, but why isn't there any more surplus 5.56 like there was in the early 2000s? I'm 26, & when I turned 18 in 04, there was Guatemalan, South African, British Radway Green, South Korean, etc., and they were cheap. Is it because so many more people have ARs, or do those countries just not have anymore surplus? There is. America, Dutch, Australian, etc. They have been popping up randomly for a while. |
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Posted: 12/16/2012 9:51:20 PM EDT
[#6]
quality brass 5.56 surplus ammo is on par with new production like PMC and such.
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Posted: 12/16/2012 10:36:21 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Not to get too far off the subject, but why isn't there any more surplus 5.56 like there was in the early 2000s? I'm 26, & when I turned 18 in 04, there was Guatemalan, South African, British Radway Green, South Korean, etc., and they were cheap. Is it because so many more people have ARs, or do those countries just not have anymore surplus? Several reasons, biggest is that much of it may now be destroyed due to UN regulations and treaties. Much if not all of the South African that used to be everywhere should have been destroyed as per UN agreements. Other reasons, a lot of ammo may have been piled up due to the cold war and was surplussed out 10-15 years after production. The volumes being acquired are just lower now. |
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Posted: 3/5/2013 7:31:29 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Not considering any sort of government bans. Unless ATF cracks down on issuing SOTs, that will cap prices. Not to mention people with enough money will just become friends with their local LEOs or go overseas and shoot god knows what with a friendly 3rd world general. Also at some point, you won't find anyone willing to weld on a $80k receiver, therefore people will stop shooting them which will stunt any further appreciation. Ultimately though, I think the country is going to go a lot more left in the future, I think we have seen a peak in pro gun feelings and enthusiasm. Plus another 10-20 years of technology combined with lousy economic growth, leaving the house paying $4 a gallon gas to sit at a range to blast expensive ammo surrounded by dust and loud noises will seem so foreign when you can just ride the couch and plug into the iholobrain for cheap. As far as the olden days go, I didn't see any mentioned ammo costs. From what I understand, unadjusted for inflation, ammo prices in the early 80s are pretty much the same as today. Also, this may be hard to understand for the facebook generation, but people didn't want to fill out government forms and let people know their business. Heck even in the early 90s in Texas, you could go to two or three wellstocked gunshops and maybe see one AR15. I went to a fair number of gunshows in Texas in the early and mid 90s, I can only remember seeing one table with NFA weapons. I agree with some you are saying, but this is just incorrect. A lot of the public and the government may be going left, but guns are more popular now than ever period. It has not peaked out and it is growing more and more every single day. Go to any gun shop, turn on the Discovery channel, go to Walmart, just talk to people.....you'll see it. So many people that even look and sound anti gun...aren't at all, and have CHLs and own 5 guns. It's great. The left and the government are trying to take them away, but guns are just plain growing in popularity at an exponential rate right now, and it has not peaked yet, nor do I think it will peak for a while. Of course, in the end no one knows, and these are just my opinions. Do I get an award for unfortunate timely predictions... Damn, I knew we were living the good old days, didn't think they would be over so soon. The battle in Colorado will soon tell us where the future is going... |
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Posted: 3/10/2013 7:00:28 PM EDT
[#9]
Today's machine gun prices will always be "too high" to the average buyer. That is, until tomorrow's machine gun prices come along, which are even higher. At that point, the average buyer will typically say they should've bought a machine gun at what is then yesterday's price. Of course it's easy to say you'd buy something for $10 Grand when that item is selling for $20 Grand, no matter what that item is. However, they still won't buy at what is then today's price though, (because "today's machine gun prices are too high") and again, tomorrow's price will be higher.
And so the cycle repeats. Again, and again, and again... |
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Posted: 3/23/2013 9:15:48 PM EDT
[#10]
Other reason interest was officially low in machine guns during the 70s and before... people just made their own under the table to avoid the tax and having to give up their information to the government.
I love reading the old timer stories in SAR. The crap the guys got away with in front of local LE is hilarious by modern standards. Many of the old school surplus importers were out of California. Can't remember the names, but the stuff this guy could get away with concerning unregistered NFA items in the 60s and 70s is beyond belief, esp when it was in San Francisco. |
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Posted: 3/30/2013 5:23:33 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Other reason interest was officially low in machine guns during the 70s and before... people just made their own under the table to avoid the tax and having to give up their information to the government. I love reading the old timer stories in SAR. The crap the guys got away with in front of local LE is hilarious by modern standards. Many of the old school surplus importers were out of California. Can't remember the names, but the stuff this guy could get away with concerning unregistered NFA items in the 60s and 70s is beyond belief, esp when it was in San Francisco. I love a good story. My old man has a few good stories of shit he got away with back in the 60's. |
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Posted: 10/9/2013 8:04:51 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Both. I'm speaking of about a decade before John started doing the weld-ups ... and most of the guns I know of being cut up were WWII bringbacks, not M16s, though there were a few. And yes, the lack of market communication was a root cause. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
RE: cutting up Colt M16s into parts kits. It seems strange that people would do this and yet you had C2's like Norrell taking demilled M16 receiver halves and welding them together to remanufacture them into functional guns. Were these happening at different times or was the market for machine guns so localized that someone might cut up a gun because they didn't realize there was a market a couple states over for that gun? Both. I'm speaking of about a decade before John started doing the weld-ups ... and most of the guns I know of being cut up were WWII bringbacks, not M16s, though there were a few. And yes, the lack of market communication was a root cause. I know its hard to fathom with the internet now, but even though I am only in my early 30's, I remember when all the information on guns came from the American Rifleman, Guns & Ammo, and Shotgun News. I remember seeing ads for NIB Uzi's for under $2,000 , and MAC's for $700 but I had no Idea how to go about getting one as I knew no one who was a Title II SOT, and at the time you had to have an FFL to own NFA in Missouri. Ignorance was the biggest obstacle, and the Internet removed that and really opened up the NFA game to anyone who had the money. |
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Posted: 10/9/2013 8:17:21 AM EDT
[#13]
Oh I realize there was a lot more ignorance about the NFA on the part of the general firearm-buying public. But the people sawing up machine guns or welding them back together again were FFL/SOTs, so I assumed they'd be more aware of the market.
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Posted: 10/9/2013 9:11:50 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh I realize there was a lot more ignorance about the NFA on the part of the general firearm-buying public. But the people sawing up machine guns or welding them back together again were FFL/SOTs, so I assumed they'd be more aware of the market. The SOTs knew their market - why tie up money in inventory for a niche market with slow sales turnover? Until 86 if you wanted a machinegun your SOT would scrounge around to find one, or make you one. The ones with a big inventory were either like junkyards, where they'd buy huge lots of stuff dirt cheap to keep around like auto graveyards do, or manufacturers keeping a modest amount of excess product on hand for casual sales. |
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Posted: 10/9/2013 9:27:51 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh I realize there was a lot more ignorance about the NFA on the part of the general firearm-buying public. But the people sawing up machine guns or welding them back together again were FFL/SOTs, so I assumed they'd be more aware of the market. If you are referring to my post above, you are taking it out of context. The people cutting them up in the 1960's/early '70s were not FFL/SOTs. Instead, they were individuals who had acquired a lawfully registered MG years previously, primarily either by bringing one back from the war and registering it, or by buying one from a buddy who had done so, or by inheritance. Back then, MG owners kept a much, much lower profile than they do today. There were practically no machine gun shoots; there was no internet to spread the word, no internet to reach potential buyers. When they went to sell, they asked their friends and at local gun shops. Many gun owners & shops backed away because of ignorance of the law; those who did understand the requirements didn't want to buy them because of the $200 tax. The only market was by stripping them and cutting the receiver, and selling them as parts kits, which was legal (and known to be legal). HTH. |
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Posted: 10/9/2013 9:44:47 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This may sound really weird to ya ... But back in the '70s, M16s were worth less than semi versions, because of the $200 transfer tax. I remember folks cutting and demilling receivers because they could not find a buyer willing to pay that tax, and the only way to sell them was as parts kits. Sigh.  Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
When I bought my 16, the dealer and I shared a laugh at the way he had to lie his ass off to Colt in order to get guns to sell. They were adamant that none of their M16s would go to civilians, even though it was perfectly legal so he assured them that each and every one of them went to LE. Actually that was true in my case, but probably not the way Colt wanted it. They still hold the title of "World's Most Anti-gun Gun Company" in my opinion. ahhhhh i wish i was around back in the day haha. did that rifle cost any more than the semi version back in the day? This may sound really weird to ya ... But back in the '70s, M16s were worth less than semi versions, because of the $200 transfer tax. I remember folks cutting and demilling receivers because they could not find a buyer willing to pay that tax, and the only way to sell them was as parts kits. Sigh. I can remember seeing full auto weapons for sale back then and thinking: "Who wants to pay that kind of money for that and go through the hassle of a tax stamp?" Well, I wish that I had. Hindsight and all that. |
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Posted: 10/9/2013 6:38:37 PM EDT
[#17]
Colt could only sell direct to CT residents, and those residents could not buy a select fire gun. In the other states or FFLs in CT, Colt sold to a dealer, and if that dealer was a SP, then technically Colt did sell direct civilians. I had a friend in FL who inherited from his dad 6 Colts M16s, NIB when they closed LE supply store and son did not want to run it. He traded them for boating crap in the early 90s (depth finders, sonar, radios, etc).
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Posted: 11/7/2013 1:54:54 PM EDT
[#18]
I'll add what I remember as I seriously considered an A1 many years ago.
In the early 80's a local dealer was encouraging me to buy an A1 for $650 sans taxes,etc. He'd been selling to some state troopers as duty weapons (private purchase though) and thought I should jump aboard the gravy train. Need to mention right now I was full time LEO also. I don't know if the price was a "police price" or what, but the rifles were new manufacture Colt. IIRC the price was not far off from the price of a semi-auto. I really did think seriously about getting one. The money was not an issue. So why didn't I get one? It simply came down to ammo costs. Plus I was reaching the 500k mark for handloads, mostly on a single stage press and was burning out loading mass quantities. I already had a Colt SP1 that could spray bullets without hitting what I was shooting at, no point in spraying & missing even faster.....right? 
The same dealer mentioned he'd some A1's to coyote hunters "out west". Apparently some guys hunting coyotes would chase them on snowmobiles and blast away at the yotes on full auto. I have no idea if they were LE related or strictly civilians or what. It was a different time than now. 
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