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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:45:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2012 4:45:08 PM EDT by Lancelot]
Helo. I was looking around for parts to make my AR15 as close to USMC specs as possible, and on a gun auction site I stumbled upon a M16 parts kit with all the full auto componets. Sear, disconnector, and bolt carrier.

My question is how is this legal? Just anybody could buy these and convert their 15 to a 16.
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 5:52:02 AM EDT
No it is not legal for you.
They are parts for use in pre 1986 Legally titled NFA rifles.

You can buy a Full Auto rifle but it will cost around $16-18 thousand.
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 5:52:57 AM EDT
No. Not legal.

In order to make it legally fire more than one round per operation of the trigger, you would have to purchase one converted before the '86 ban, or purchase a conversion device manufactured before the ban. Both are over $10k. Plus, it must be legal in your locality.
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 5:53:25 AM EDT
Just take a measurement a drill a thrird hole.


KIDDING! DONT DO THAT!

You have to buy a firearm originally intended to be full auto. I believe the street price of a M16 lower is about 16K right now. Start saving.
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 5:54:16 AM EDT
Well ofcourse I know it's not legal to convert one. I just didn't know you could actually buy the parts to make one.
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 6:05:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Grudgie:
Well ofcourse I know it's not legal to convert one. I just didn't know you could actually buy the parts to make one.


you can buy the parts to repair your pre 86 m16. thats whats for sale.
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 6:09:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Grudgie:
Well ofcourse I know it's not legal to convert one. I just didn't know you could actually buy the parts to make one.


just parts.

Link Posted: 7/30/2012 6:13:07 AM EDT
Your receiver won't accept those parts anyway. It doen't have the space for the full auto sear cut out of the lower receiver so you couldn't convert it without a good bit of machine shop time.
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 6:13:30 AM EDT
Most places won't even sell you any M16 parts unless you are a Class III FFL holder. But, you can legally purchase an M16 FCG, you can legally posses an M16 FCG, but, you CANNOT legally install them into an AR15 (except for the BC) without possessing the proper license.
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 6:37:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CovertChannels:
Your receiver won't accept those parts anyway. It doen't have the space for the full auto sear cut out of the lower receiver so you couldn't convert it without a good bit of machine shop time.


This is the key.
Yes you can buy full auto trigger parts, but they wont fit/work in a normal AR lower.
Select fire/full auto lowers have different specs.

If you want full auto, you have to get a registered select fire lower (pre 86') and thats like $16-$20k
You can get a registered drop in auto sear for a standard lower like you have, thats $10-$15k
Or you can get a lightning link for a stand lower like yours. There like $8-$10k and only do full auto, no semi.

And of course you have to do all the NFA paperwork.
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 6:46:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Donner_und_Blitzen:
Originally Posted By Grudgie:
Well ofcourse I know it's not legal to convert one. I just didn't know you could actually buy the parts to make one.


just parts.



ehhhh... ok this is starting to get a little awkward. You can own all the full auto parts you want for the upper receiver however, I would never put a full auto part in the lower without explicit written permission from the ATF.
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 6:47:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2012 6:48:45 AM EDT by thornejc]
Originally Posted By Saddlerocker:
Originally Posted By CovertChannels:
Your receiver won't accept those parts anyway. It doen't have the space for the full auto sear cut out of the lower receiver so you couldn't convert it without a good bit of machine shop time.


This is the key.
Yes you can buy full auto trigger parts, but they wont fit/work in a normal AR lower.
Select fire/full auto lowers have different specs.

If you want full auto, you have to get a registered select fire lower (pre 86') and thats like $16-$20k
You can get a registered drop in auto sear for a standard lower like you have, thats $10-$15k
Or you can get a lightning link for a stand lower like yours. There like $8-$10k and only do full auto, no semi.

And of course you have to do all the NFA paperwork.


I believe very early PSA ARs had the space needed to drop in a full auto sear... that has changed.
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 7:01:29 AM EDT
you're playing with fire
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 7:14:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By thornejc:
Originally Posted By Saddlerocker:
Originally Posted By CovertChannels:
Your receiver won't accept those parts anyway. It doen't have the space for the full auto sear cut out of the lower receiver so you couldn't convert it without a good bit of machine shop time.


This is the key.
Yes you can buy full auto trigger parts, but they wont fit/work in a normal AR lower.
Select fire/full auto lowers have different specs.

If you want full auto, you have to get a registered select fire lower (pre 86') and thats like $16-$20k
You can get a registered drop in auto sear for a standard lower like you have, thats $10-$15k
Or you can get a lightning link for a stand lower like yours. There like $8-$10k and only do full auto, no semi.

And of course you have to do all the NFA paperwork.


I believe very early PSA ARs had the space needed to drop in a full auto sear... that has changed.

Don't Spike's Tactical lowers have the same? Low shelf for RDIAS?
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 7:35:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Eric300:
Most places won't even sell you any M16 parts unless you are a Class III FFL holder. But, you can legally purchase an M16 FCG, you can legally posses an M16 FCG, but, you CANNOT legally install them into an AR15 (except for the BC) without possessing the proper license.

please go get educated, your embarrassing yourself
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 7:36:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thornejc:
Originally Posted By Donner_und_Blitzen:
Originally Posted By Grudgie:
Well ofcourse I know it's not legal to convert one. I just didn't know you could actually buy the parts to make one.


just parts.



ehhhh... ok this is starting to get a little awkward. You can own all the full auto parts you want for the upper receiver however, I would never put a full auto part in the lower without explicit written permission from the ATF.
that wont work either

Link Posted: 7/30/2012 7:39:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Saddlerocker:


This is the key.
Yes you can buy full auto trigger parts, but they wont fit/work in a normal AR lower.
Select fire/full auto lowers have different specs.


actually most will take the fcg, but not the sear, They are less that wont take them than will.

I have a dias and have looked into it more than once
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 7:39:33 AM EDT
IBTL
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 9:24:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2012 9:49:43 AM EDT by Eric300]
Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:

Originally Posted By Eric300:
Most places won't even sell you any M16 parts unless you are a Class III FFL holder. But, you can legally purchase an M16 FCG, you can legally posses an M16 FCG, but, you CANNOT legally install them into an AR15 (except for the BC) without possessing the proper license.

please go get educated, your embarrassing yourself


Please explain how I'm 'embarrassing myself'?? Everything that I posted is true. Other then not getting in-depth as what needs to be done to the lower to install an auto-sear. I have personally seen it done to 2 different Bushmaster lowers and they worked exactly how a select-fire should. Not only that, but also with the 3 round burst cam installed. Perhaps you are the one who is embarrassing your self and needs educating....... I can even produce the blueprints on how it's done.
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 9:29:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2012 9:50:42 AM EDT by Forest]
Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:

Originally Posted By thornejc:
Originally Posted By Donner_und_Blitzen:
Originally Posted By Grudgie:
Well ofcourse I know it's not legal to convert one. I just didn't know you could actually buy the parts to make one.


just parts.



ehhhh... ok this is starting to get a little awkward. You can own all the full auto parts you want for the upper receiver however, I would never put a full auto part in the lower without explicit written permission from the ATF.
that wont work either



Oh I beg to differ. Now who's embarrassing themselves?

<Text Removed - Mod's note: Individual citizens can no longer get permission to modify their lowers for the standard Auto Sear - that requires a specific type of FFL that allows one to manufacture such firearms (which are intended for demonstration by the FFL, for the Mil/Police, or for export. - F >
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 11:53:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GANDYDANCER:
It must just be me, but I always have bad feelings when someone requests/asks about how to do something illegal. Make bombs. Silencers, Full Auto weapons. etc etc.

No offence to anybody. It's just me being wary.

GD


There are legal methods to make an AR-15 shoot fully automatic. However, there is no legal way to make a machinegun for civilian ownership.

So, the question posed by the op is not illegal in and of itself. It is perfectly legal to make an AR15 fully automatic, by purchasing a conversion device that was registered before the 86 ban.

Link Posted: 7/30/2012 11:56:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GANDYDANCER:
It must just be me, but I always have bad feelings when someone requests/asks about how to do something illegal. Make bombs. Silencers, Full Auto weapons. etc etc.

No offence to anybody. It's just me being wary.

GD


you ever just thought mybe they watch alot of action movies and want too have the option of full auto. i ask the same thing when i first got into AR's. are these fully auto and why would i want a AR if its not fully auto. i didnt know they passed a law where we cant have a full auto without form 4. i still think its stupid you cant just buya 10.5 barrel or whatever length you want. and its dumb that suppresors are illegal without the form 4. when did these stupid laws pass and cant the NRA get it reversed where we can own anything we want. i could see full auto being banned thats it. goverment is making guns not as fun by the day.
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 12:11:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Eric300:
Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:

Originally Posted By Eric300:
Most places won't even sell you any M16 parts unless you are a Class III FFL holder. But, you can legally purchase an M16 FCG, you can legally posses an M16 FCG, but, you CANNOT legally install them into an AR15 (except for the BC) without possessing the proper license.

please go get educated, your embarrassing yourself


Please explain how I'm 'embarrassing myself'?? Everything that I posted is true. Other then not getting in-depth as what needs to be done to the lower to install an auto-sear. I have personally seen it done to 2 different Bushmaster lowers and they worked exactly how a select-fire should. Not only that, but also with the 3 round burst cam installed. Perhaps you are the one who is embarrassing your self and needs educating....... I can even produce the blueprints on how it's done.


excuse me taylor, i was going to post how hes making him self look bad and all. i guess i will anyways.

notice how he highlighted the part where you said you needed a class III FFL? you now get to explain what a class III license is, and you get to do it while not embarrassing your self. but you can't. cause a "class III FFL" doesn't exist.

getting on afrcom and talking about a "class III FFL" is about as mall ninja as you can get.

your either a type 1 FFL (dealer), with a class 3 SOT (NFA dealer). or a type 7 FFL (manufacturer) with a class 2 SOT (NFA manufacturer and dealer). other Federal Firearms License and Special Occupation Tax combinations work but these are the main ones.

you can not get any of these with out a storefront that is making money. as in, a normal joe can't get one with out actually making a business out of it. you can't get a 07/02 or 01/03 license just to collect.

oh god, i just got to the part where you talk about how its legal to get a m16 fcg. what fail.

you havn't seen shit done with two bushmasters. stop telling lies.
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 1:29:58 PM EDT
why are full auto so expensive??

I was just thinking about this today

bear in mind I am relatively new to AR's and live in a state where I can have nothing fun but if we are allowed to own full auto guns with the proper paperwork why is the hardware so stinking expensive?? It seems that most of the higher end brand uppers today could handle full auto so it seems to me you are just paying for the FCG?

I'm late to the party and a little slow

Thanks
Paul
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 1:33:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fatboyslim34:
why are full auto so expensive??


Thanks
Paul

new manufacture for lowly civilians was halted in May 1986
so finite supply
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 1:34:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:

Originally Posted By fatboyslim34:
why are full auto so expensive??


Thanks
Paul

new manufacture for lowly civilians was halted in May 1986
so finite supply


So there is no such thing as new production full auto firearms for civvies?
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 1:35:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Grudgie:
Helo. I was looking around for parts to make my AR15 as close to USMC specs as possible, and on a gun auction site I stumbled upon a M16 parts kit with all the full auto componets. Sear, disconnector, and bolt carrier.

My question is how is this legal? Just anybody could buy these and convert their 15 to a 16.


Whenever I see threads like this I think, "Is he a reporter or fed?".
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 1:43:50 PM EDT
Use the M16 carrier group then grind the hook off the hammer and the tail from the disconector and sell off or get rid off the trigger,safety and auto-sear those parts modified you can use.
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 1:48:31 PM EDT
There's a tremendous amount of misinformation flying about the web on so-called 'automatic rifles', which we know refers to machine guns. There is a concerted propaganda drive on to make non-gun people believe that the AR15 is a machine gun. Questions like the one that started this thread and some of the more ignorant answers make me wonder if they weren't posted by agents provocateur
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 1:51:26 PM EDT
Just get a slidefire stock.
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 1:53:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fatboyslim34:
Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:

Originally Posted By fatboyslim34:
why are full auto so expensive??


Thanks
Paul

new manufacture for lowly civilians was halted in May 1986
so finite supply


So there is no such thing as new production full auto firearms for civvies?

Nope, that was cut off by a bit of Democratic legislative chicanery during the closing moments of the vote on the 1986 NRA supported McClure-Volkmer Act.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=364163
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 9:35:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Eric300:
Oh I beg to differ.


You completely missed his points.
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 9:57:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By NAM:
Originally Posted By Eric300:
Oh I beg to differ.


You completely missed his points.


Well please clarify his points for me.
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 10:22:22 AM EDT
You can make an AR15 full auto, but you must be a Manufaturer of firearms (Type 07 FFL) and hold a special occupation tax (Class 2 SOT). These FFLs are comment called 07/02 SOT. On top of that, I think you have to send demo letters to LEO and whatnot. I'm not either of these so I can't confirm the legalities of legally making a firearm full auto.

Rule of thumb is: if you don't know, or seems shady...don't do it.

M16 bolt carriers are OK because they can't make any AR15 full auto unless there is an auto/burst sear...which the bolt carrier "trips" to enable automatic fire.
Some places require you to show your tax stamp or FFL license to buy M16 fire control parts.

M16 parts have no use in an AR15 unless you have a registered Lightning Link or registered Drop In Auto Sear.

Although an M16 fire control group and auto selector may not make the AR15 full auto, but the ATF will have a different view. These are the same people that seized airsoft guns because they said that they can be converted to "high power firearms"...
You can send a letter to the ATF for clarification on M16 parts, but you will get different answers. The ATF doesn't make the law.

If you want an M16, save up $20,000 and choose one. Then spend the next 6 months waiting
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 10:47:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2012 10:52:24 AM EDT by cmeyer001]
Most places won't even sell you any M16 parts unless you are a Class III FFL holder


I think the criticism here is that most places wont sell you M16 parts unless you can provide a copy of your Form 4 ( or your Form 1 if you are the owner that legally converted your receiver pre 86).

When discussing Title 2 firearms and how one can go about legally obtaining them, semantics / words / terms are of critical importance.

Link Posted: 7/30/2012 10:50:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2012 10:53:43 AM EDT by thornejc]
Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:

Originally Posted By thornejc:
Originally Posted By Donner_und_Blitzen:
Originally Posted By Grudgie:
Well ofcourse I know it's not legal to convert one. I just didn't know you could actually buy the parts to make one.


just parts.



ehhhh... ok this is starting to get a little awkward. You can own all the full auto parts you want for the upper receiver however, I would never put a full auto part in the lower without explicit written permission from the ATF.
that wont work either



All I was saying is that if you have some random full auto part (like the F/A hammer that was in question recently) I wouldn't put it in your rifle unless you have written permission from the ATF. If you just call and ask and then if you get in trouble say "well this guy told me it was ok" doesn't hold up in court but... if you have a letter written by the ATF it will hold up in court for your specific case even if it expresses an individual agent's interpretation of the law. Without that written insurance I wouldn't do it. I just recently had this conversation with the ATF over painted over engravings (such as serial numbers and Trust information) that must be engraved to a minimum depth.
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 11:32:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 11:41:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By thornejc:
.if you have a letter written by the ATF it will hold up in court for your specific case even if it expresses an individual agent's interpretation of the law...


No it won't, not even it's from the Tech Branch.


Nonsense! Some person said it on the internet, so it MUST be true.


Link Posted: 7/30/2012 11:43:30 AM EDT
It must just be me, but I always have bad feelings when someone requests/asks about how to do something illegal. Make bombs. Silencers, Full Auto weapons. etc etc.

No offence to anybody. It's just me being wary.

GD
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 2:00:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fatboyslim34:
why are full auto so expensive??

I was just thinking about this today

bear in mind I am relatively new to AR's and live in a state where I can have nothing fun but if we are allowed to own full auto guns with the proper paperwork why is the hardware so stinking expensive?? It seems that most of the higher end brand uppers today could handle full auto so it seems to me you are just paying for the FCG?

I'm late to the party and a little slow

Thanks
Paul


supply and demand. the last ones to be legally made was 1986.
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 2:00:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2012 2:01:05 PM EDT by Forest]
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 2:01:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fortydelta:
Originally Posted By Grudgie:
Helo. I was looking around for parts to make my AR15 as close to USMC specs as possible, and on a gun auction site I stumbled upon a M16 parts kit with all the full auto componets. Sear, disconnector, and bolt carrier.

My question is how is this legal? Just anybody could buy these and convert their 15 to a 16.


Whenever I see threads like this I think, "Is he a reporter or fed?".

yep
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 3:12:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2012 3:18:28 PM EDT by Dferg10]
This does not seem to be a legitimate techincal question.
Link Posted: 7/30/2012 3:22:52 PM EDT
There are some good posts in here, OP. Sort through the BS and arguing and you'll learn a lot.
Link Posted: 7/31/2012 9:58:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/31/2012 9:59:44 AM EDT by mboylan]
.........
Link Posted: 7/31/2012 10:11:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/31/2012 10:20:06 AM EDT by mboylan]

So there is no such thing as new production full auto firearms for civvies?


No. There is zero political will to change this or for civilian ownership of automatic weapons in Congress. It won't change.

They do cost a fortune to run. If you cannot afford 3 grand for an M11/9, you probably cannot afford to shoot full auto.
Link Posted: 8/3/2012 9:26:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dannofree:
Originally Posted By Eric300:
Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:

Originally Posted By Eric300:
Most places won't even sell you any M16 parts unless you are a Class III FFL holder. But, you can legally purchase an M16 FCG, you can legally posses an M16 FCG, but, you CANNOT legally install them into an AR15 (except for the BC) without possessing the proper license.

please go get educated, your embarrassing yourself


Please explain how I'm 'embarrassing myself'?? Everything that I posted is true. Other then not getting in-depth as what needs to be done to the lower to install an auto-sear. I have personally seen it done to 2 different Bushmaster lowers and they worked exactly how a select-fire should. Not only that, but also with the 3 round burst cam installed. Perhaps you are the one who is embarrassing your self and needs educating....... I can even produce the blueprints on how it's done.


excuse me taylor, i was going to post how hes making him self look bad and all. i guess i will anyways.

notice how he highlighted the part where you said you needed a class III FFL? you now get to explain what a class III license is, and you get to do it while not embarrassing your self. but you can't. cause a "class III FFL" doesn't exist.

getting on afrcom and talking about a "class III FFL" is about as mall ninja as you can get.

your either a type 1 FFL (dealer), with a class 3 SOT (NFA dealer). or a type 7 FFL (manufacturer) with a class 2 SOT (NFA manufacturer and dealer). other Federal Firearms License and Special Occupation Tax combinations work but these are the main ones.

you can not get any of these with out a storefront that is making money. as in, a normal joe can't get one with out actually making a business out of it. you can't get a 07/02 or 01/03 license just to collect.

oh god, i just got to the part where you talk about how its legal to get a m16 fcg. what fail.

you havn't seen shit done with two bushmasters. stop telling lies.


You're mostly right but you don't need a storefront. There are plenty of home based FFL's and some have an SOT. Nothing about the SOT or FFL requires a storefront.

You do have to be in business to make money, and not have the license just for personal use.

Also you don't need the SOT to transfer a NFA weapon, a standard FFL01 can do it on a limited basis. It wouldn't be tax exempt and there may be some restrictions but it is possible.

Link Posted: 8/14/2012 8:19:50 PM EDT
By law you cannot legally manufacture a "machine gun" (their terminology) Not even an FFL gunsmith can do it for you. Both of you could be looking at prison time. If you have the parts; sear, proper bolt carrier, etc, it is not difficult but it is also NOT legal

If you want to 'experience" pseudo full auto fire and not fork over an outrageous amount of money for weapon and Class III license, you can try what people call "bump fire". It is for the most part impractical and potentially very dangerous, as without without the proper (and legal) type of stock which can be had for around $200, you will have to shoot from the hip.
Link Posted: 8/16/2012 8:12:29 PM EDT
And that my friends is why this country is in the shitter...
Link Posted: 8/16/2012 8:26:05 PM EDT
No its called ten year in a club fed.
Parts can be used to replace worn or damaged original parts in a legally registered M-16 which is full auto.
If you try as a private citizen to convert a ar-15 a semi auto rife in to an automatic rife see line one.
IIRC you can have some of the full auto parts in a ar-15 with out breaking the law such as the bolt carrier group. I don't remember if you can have a sear and a disconnector in your ar
Link Posted: 8/18/2012 11:05:00 PM EDT
Let's all spend $300 for a Slidefire and call it a day!
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