Author
Message
cyborg543
Member
Offline
Posts: 7417
Feedback: 0% (0)
Posted: 7/11/2012 1:11:37 PM
[Last Edit: 7/11/2012 1:27:49 PM by cyborg543]

THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT
Newbie questions:

Is there a 9mm conversion that is not too expensive and uses UZI mags? Because UZI mags are the best mag cost / value ratio on earth.

how about a 22 kit? one that uses mags that are not poor quality and/or unobtainable?

How about spare parts and must-have upgrades for the A1? New FGC parts? Springs?

Thanks

Circuits
Member
Online
Posts: 6150
Feedback: 100% (21)
Link To This Post
Posted: 7/11/2012 1:53:41 PM
Originally Posted By cyborg543:
Newbie questions:

Is there a 9mm conversion that is not too expensive and uses UZI mags? Because UZI mags are the best mag cost / value ratio on earth.

how about a 22 kit? one that uses mags that are not poor quality and/or unobtainable?

How about spare parts and must-have upgrades for the A1? New FGC parts? Springs?

Thanks



Any manufacturer's Colt pattern 9mm can use an uzi magblock and uzi mags.

22 kits abound. New, quality mags abound. You can get 50rd and higher drums for them. Unfortunately, there is a shortage of the parts needed to make the 22 kits work full auto in conjunction with a full auto lower or DIAS. Hopefully this shortage will ease up in the near future, but for now, to go auto with a 22 kit and an M16, you need to purchase a compatible Atchisson-style conversion unit (CMMG, Ciener, Target Master, Spike's, and possibly some others are compatible), and the search the EE and other web boards looking for an automatic trip and debounce weight. Without those parts and a compatible Atchisson conversion, you can still shoot 22 from your M16, but the happy fun switch won't work while you're doing so.

Always good to have a new, spare FCG on hand, and change out springs more often than you think you have to. Fresh springs and good parts prevent malfunctions and unnecessary wear. Tony_K recommends changing out your springs every 10k rounds or so, iirc.

Upgrades will be at your and your wallet's discretion. If it's a real Colt, maybe take off the original upper and furniture to store away, so you can run on a replaceable, beater upper and furniture set, and be able to restore it to nearly-identical factory condition if you want to.
"The only real difference between the men and the boys, is the number and size, and cost of their toys."
NRA Life, GOA Life, CSSA Life, NRA Certified Instructor, FFL/SOT 07/C2
cyborg543
Member
Offline
Posts: 7420
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 7/11/2012 3:31:24 PM
what are those little link things on the side of m16s, looks like some kind of aftermarket pin reinforcement

which cheap uppers are generally the best for the $$$?

would any upper fit a colt M16a1 made around (I think) 1979?
Shermantor-AR15
Offline
Posts: 2261
Feedback: 100% (6)
Link To This Post
Posted: 7/11/2012 3:37:55 PM
[Last Edit: 7/11/2012 3:38:05 PM by Shermantor-AR15]
Originally Posted By cyborg543:
what are those little link things on the side of m16s, looks like some kind of aftermarket pin reinforcement

KNS anti-rotating hammer and trigger pins
tony_k
How was I to know she was with the Russians, too?
Offline
Posts: 10896
Feedback: 100% (7)
Link To This Post
Posted: 7/11/2012 4:40:42 PM
[Last Edit: 7/11/2012 4:41:50 PM by tony_k]
I really need to do either a sticky of this, or patent it:

My recommendations when you buy a new M16:

––Buy a complete fire-control system. Remember, your M16 is at least 26 years old; there no way to tell how many rounds have gone down the tube. Starting with fresh FC parts means zero wear, and give you the best odds for trouble-free use for years. If your RR is a factory Colt, carefully pack away the original FC parts; that way, you can restore it to original whenever you want.

I only recommend Colt FC parts, because I've never come across an out-of-spec Colt FC part in over 30 years fixing these. Any other source is hit-and-miss. If you have a C&R license ($10 for 3 years), Brownell's will give you dealer cost on them.

––Get a new set of springs (hammer, trigger, disconnector and recoil). Springs are the "oil" in a machine gun: They cushion and protect the parts against wear. Even age without use may weaken them.Start with fresh springs, and change them regularly (every 10k rounds for 5.56 only; every 5k rounds if you shoot 9mm, 7.62x39, etc.).

––The KNS pins are excellent insurance if you shoot any caliber besides 5.56, and even some 5.56 extreme shorties are hard on the gun. Hammer and trigger pins are steel or SS; they ride in holes in an alloy wall. So with every cycle, any impact is transmitted through the steel pins, and the receiver walls take all the wear.

The KNS pins, OTOH, lock the front pins to the rear, thus distributing any impact to four holes instead of two. It's like when you lift a tree: It's easier for four guys to lift it instead of two.

––If you do run 9mm, get your bolt ramped. This will greatly reduce the impact on the disconnector during cycling (I've seen disconnectors damned near flattened) and thus reduce the impact being transmitted through the pins to the receiver wall.

Uppers:

OK, I sound like a broken record ... but Colt uppers are, in my experience, more consistently reliable in full-auto use. I don't look for the "cheapest reliable" alternative, because when you pay $15-25k for a gun, IMHO you should follow through with top quality parts. I don't use the cheapest gas, or run the cheapest tires, on my Camaro SS, either. I would rather pay for performance, instead of handicapping my tools and increasing the risk of failure.

BTW, you can often get really low-round-count factory Colt takeoff uppers from law enforcement use. Typically, they are cosmetically challenged, but rarely shot as much in their life as you will shoot the first weekend. I've bought ugly-but-mint-inside Colt M4A2 14.5" uppers for as little as $350, and they are my blaster uppers.

That allows me to baby my collection of "prize" uppers collected over the years: 20" LMG, 20" A1 pencil barrel, 16" RO920, 14.5" M4A3, 14.5" M4A3 SOCOM, 11.5" Commando, 11.5" 607, 7" DOE 9mm. The only non-Colt upper I own is an LRM M169 integrally suppressed upper that Lee Minor made to my specs.

Get a couple of "blaster" used Colts for those mag dumps, then start building your own set of personal favorites.

HTH. Have fun!
This is Tony K, and I approved this message.
TriggerFish
Keeping the smart in smart-ass.
Offline
Posts: 2036
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 7/11/2012 5:45:18 PM
Welcome cyborg to the wonderful world of Legos... err M16s! WAY too much stuff available for these guys.
Tony is the MAN re: all things Colt/M16 and MGs in general. He has helped me over many years.

I had Lee Minor ramp my 9mm bolt for the 10.5" American Spirit Arms SMG upper. Since Tony has the fantastic (custom spec.) LRM suppressed 9mm upper, I think it's time he sell me that old DOE thingie... and if you can help convince him for me I'll sell you this ASA upper for very good price.
• I think anyone should be allowed to buy a machinegun without restrictions. However, a dremel tool should require a background check and a $200 transfer fee. -ANON •
cyborg543
Member
Offline
Posts: 7455
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 7/17/2012 1:11:12 PM
[Last Edit: 7/17/2012 1:13:41 PM by cyborg543]
Are there any colt factory 9mm FA flattop uppers?

What's the legal status on those shorty M16 uppers? I mean with respect to them being an SBR if attached to a regular AR15.

Also, what about pin sizes, is there a reference anywhere, shows what uppers and lowers have what?

Thanks
tony_k
How was I to know she was with the Russians, too?
Offline
Posts: 10916
Feedback: 100% (7)
Link To This Post
Posted: 7/17/2012 1:24:21 PM
Originally Posted By cyborg543:
Are there any colt factory 9mm FA flattop uppers? Yes, but they are very, very rare. Colt only came out with them a few years ago and they are for LE contracts only. Most such contracts go to 5.56 instead, so .... FWIW, I have never seen one for sale.

What's the legal status on those shorty M16 uppers? I mean with respect to them being an SBR if attached to a regular AR15. Possession of a sub-16" upper and a Title 1 (non-SBR) lower, and at the same time not owning a 16"+ upper to put on each non-SBR lower, does leave you open to charges of constructive possession of an unregistered SBR.

Also, what about pin sizes, is there a reference anywhere, shows what uppers and lowers have what? The only non-milspec uppers are the factory uppers for Colt SP1s, and a very few Daniels Defense uppers made specifically for SP1s. All Colt production for the last coupla decades is milspec pins, and so are most aftermarket uppers. In other words, uppers that won't fit a milspec lower are very, very rare.

Thanks


This is Tony K, and I approved this message.
cyborg543
Member
Offline
Posts: 7457
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 7/17/2012 4:30:31 PM
Thanks Tony, this thread is great.

Is there a 9mm suppressor you could use on an M16 for both 9mm and 223?
tony_k
How was I to know she was with the Russians, too?
Offline
Posts: 10919
Feedback: 100% (7)
Link To This Post
Posted: 7/17/2012 6:00:04 PM
Originally Posted By cyborg543:
Thanks Tony, this thread is great.

Is there a 9mm suppressor you could use on an M16 for both 9mm and 223?

The only one I'm aware of is the old TripleX from American Manufacturing. Don't know if Mike Klos is still building them.

The problem is that most folks want light, short cans for 9mm ... but the higher pressure of 5.56 will blow up most of the 9mm cans. Plus, the way smaller diameter of the .223 projectile means significant blow-by in a can with a 9mm bore, even if it holds together, so it's not nearly as quiet, and often not hearing-safe. Mike dealt with it by building a 9mm can that was built like a brick s***house, so it could stand the 5.56's pressure, but it still would be considered loud when compared to even the average .223 can today.

Prolly best just to bite the bullet and buy two cans, with two taxes. Sigh.
This is Tony K, and I approved this message.
gunz213
Member
Offline
Posts: 1057
Feedback: 100% (61)
Link To This Post
Posted: 7/17/2012 6:03:52 PM
Most if not all 9mm cans on the market today will not handle F/A 5.56 especially on a short barrel. You would be much better off buying a dedicated 5.56 can and a user serviceable 9mm can so you could use it for 9mm, 300 blackout and .22 without filling the can up with lead and propellant residue.

I use a YHM Phantom on my 5.56 uppers and a SWR Trident on my 9mm and 300 fireball MG's and they both perform very well.
cyborg543
Member
Offline
Posts: 7460
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 7/17/2012 7:28:52 PM
makes you wonder what the pressure is at the muzzle for various guns

there's probably 5 times the volume of gas between a 223 and 9mm, since the propellant charge is 5 times the mass. give or take.
Circuits
Member
Online
Posts: 6181
Feedback: 100% (21)
Link To This Post
Posted: 7/18/2012 12:54:45 AM
Originally Posted By cyborg543:
Is there a 9mm suppressor you could use on an M16 for both 9mm and 223?


You can order a "5.56 can" and ask the mfg to open up the freebore so you can use it with 9mm, too - or modify it to open up the freebore yourself. A full auto rated centerfire rifle suppressor will stand up to a near-infinite amount of centerfire pistol fire.

However, its effectiveness as a 5.56 can will probably be reduced by opening it up to pass .357 9mm bullets.
"The only real difference between the men and the boys, is the number and size, and cost of their toys."
NRA Life, GOA Life, CSSA Life, NRA Certified Instructor, FFL/SOT 07/C2
jbntex
Offline
Posts: 1411
Feedback: 86% (7)
Link To This Post
Posted: 7/18/2012 2:09:45 AM
Originally Posted By tony_k:
Originally Posted By cyborg543:
Thanks Tony, this thread is great.

Is there a 9mm suppressor you could use on an M16 for both 9mm and 223?

The only one I'm aware of is the old TripleX from American Manufacturing. Don't know if Mike Klos is still building them.

The problem is that most folks want light, short cans for 9mm ... but the higher pressure of 5.56 will blow up most of the 9mm cans. Plus, the way smaller diameter of the .223 projectile means significant blow-by in a can with a 9mm bore, even if it holds together, so it's not nearly as quiet, and often not hearing-safe. Mike dealt with it by building a 9mm can that was built like a brick s***house, so it could stand the 5.56's pressure, but it still would be considered loud when compared to even the average .223 can today.

Prolly best just to bite the bullet and buy two cans, with two taxes. Sigh.


I have one of Mike XXX Warrior Suppressors. Mine is technically only for 5.56 only but the bore is big enough for a .380 projective to just squeek by but I wouldnt fire 9MM through mine given how little clearance there is. I beleive when he did the 223/9MM combo cans later in the run they were opened up a touch bit more.

From a sound perspective mine really isnt all that bad as the suppressor is much larger than a modern 5.56 can today. The benefit is that you get similar sound suppression but much less gas blowback, albeit at a pretty hefty size and weight premium.

I beleive Mike still makes these suppressors and you can find him at New Melle Gunshop.

Here is a pic comparison of a AAC M42000 Mod08 to a XXX Warrior. You can really appreciate the difference in size when you consider that inside that AAC can is a whole phantom style flash hider (before even getting to the first baffle) and the XXX can starts about a 1/4 past the outside of the rear end cap once the threads end.



The XXX Warrior was the first rifle suppressor I purchased and after a active first couple years eventually ended up sitting unused for years as new suppressors took it's place in the technological hierachy. However, recently the old XXX Warrior has found a new lease on life mounted and rocksetted to a shorty 12" shrike barrel and it's best attributes (being built like a brick shithouse) can most fully be appreciated in extended beltfed fire.
cyborg543
Member
Offline
Posts: 7464
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 7/18/2012 10:09:48 AM
[Last Edit: 7/18/2012 10:10:59 AM by cyborg543]
What do you think of the bowers CAC9 can on the M16?

I've used one on a MAC10/9, it reduces the sound from incredo-loud to chainsaw loud

It's not the hollywood movie performance I was expecting but the reduction in sound volume is very impressive.

I've been reading up on suppression, mostly everything you see about it is purely subjective.
Chas8008
Member
Offline
Posts: 9852
Feedback: 100% (53)
Link To This Post
Posted: 7/18/2012 10:25:10 AM

Originally Posted By cyborg543:
What do you think of the bowers CAC9 can on the M16?

I've used one on a MAC10/9, it reduces the sound from incredo-loud to chainsaw loud

It's not the hollywood movie performance I was expecting but the reduction in sound volume is very impressive.

I've been reading up on suppression, mostly everything you see about it is purely subjective.

I have a Colt m16 and a CAC 45 can.

I have not used the my YHM adator too much in FA. I was having feeding issues.

That said I have used it in semi. And with 125gr bullets it sounds like a loud nail gun or loud paintball gun.

I need to try 147 again.

Do not email me please, I will not get it. IM me only for the time being..

Thanks Chas
cyborg543
Member
Offline
Posts: 7479
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 7/18/2012 1:52:43 PM
[Last Edit: 7/18/2012 1:53:03 PM by cyborg543]
Originally Posted By Chas8008:

Originally Posted By cyborg543:
What do you think of the bowers CAC9 can on the M16?

I've used one on a MAC10/9, it reduces the sound from incredo-loud to chainsaw loud

It's not the hollywood movie performance I was expecting but the reduction in sound volume is very impressive.

I've been reading up on suppression, mostly everything you see about it is purely subjective.

I have a Colt m16 and a CAC 45 can.

I have not used the my YHM adator too much in FA. I was having feeding issues.

That said I have used it in semi. And with 125gr bullets it sounds like a loud nail gun or loud paintball gun.

I need to try 147 again.



9mm supersonic ammo crackles like a downed electric line, it must add 20 db
tony_k
How was I to know she was with the Russians, too?
Offline
Posts: 10922
Feedback: 100% (7)
Link To This Post
Posted: 7/18/2012 5:18:56 PM
If you want quiet 9mm ... try to find an LRM M169 integrally suppressed 9mm upper. Lee Minor developed and refined these over the years, and I tested each version for him at Hernando.

The initial design was quieter than an HK MP5SD, but like the SD, the barrel porting bled off too much velocity, and lost power. Over the four generations, LRM boosted terminal velocity while still keeping it quiet. And unlike the SD, you can safely shoot subsonic 147-gr to quiet it down even more.

Here's a video from years ago with my 3.5-gen M169. It is shooting supersonic 115-gr. Federal American Eagle. It is much louder than with subsonic, but it still sounds like a .22 without the sonic crack. (BTW, the original M169s like mine are registered in both 9mm and .22RF, so you can shoot it with either by swapping the barrel and bolt. Very convenient, two for the price of one.)

Here's the vid. It was taken at the Hernando MG shoot, so you can compare the sound with other MGs:

This is Tony K, and I approved this message.
Chas8008
Member
Offline
Posts: 9862
Feedback: 100% (53)
Link To This Post
Posted: 7/18/2012 5:27:41 PM

Originally Posted By tony_k:
If you want quiet 9mm ... try to find an LRM M169 integrally suppressed 9mm upper. Lee Minor developed and refined these over the years, and I tested each version for him at Hernando.

The initial design was quieter than an HK MP5SD, but like the SD, the barrel porting bled off too much velocity, and lost power. Over the four generations, LRM boosted terminal velocity while still keeping it quiet. And unlike the SD, you can safely shoot subsonic 147-gr to quiet it down even more.

Here's a video from years ago with my 3.5-gen M169. It is shooting supersonic 115-gr. Federal American Eagle. It is much louder than with subsonic, but it still sounds like a .22 without the sonic crack. (BTW, the original M169s like mine are registered in both 9mm and .22RF, so you can shoot it with either by swapping the barrel and bolt. Very convenient, two for the price of one.)

Here's the vid. It was taken at the Hernando MG shoot, so you can compare the sound with other MGs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSywfVdz_0g&feature=plcp

Nice Video Tony.

I have a video of a guy shoot a GG that is that quite. The sound of brass hitting the ground and grown man giggleing was louder..
Do not email me please, I will not get it. IM me only for the time being..

Thanks Chas
Circuits
Member
Online
Posts: 6183
Feedback: 100% (21)
Link To This Post
Posted: 7/18/2012 5:56:45 PM
Yes, 45 suppresses nicely, especially when using soft/cheap range reloads they supplied for the rental. In late afternoon sunlight, you can easily see the subsonic rounds in flight.

Standard velocity 22 and a good can can provide a similar experience.
"The only real difference between the men and the boys, is the number and size, and cost of their toys."
NRA Life, GOA Life, CSSA Life, NRA Certified Instructor, FFL/SOT 07/C2
Armory » M-16