Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
User Panel

Site Notices
Posted: 7/11/2017 10:45:53 AM EDT
So, I purchased a M10/45 when I lived in NC from another NC resident. At the time I got a permit from my sheriff. I subsequently moved to Missouri. As I understood it, North Carolina law changed a couple of years ago to make machinegun ownership easier.  

I submitted a 5320.20 to the NFA Branch last month to temporarily transport my M10/45 back to NC so I could take it to the range while visiting some friends. I got the 5320.20 back yesterday marked "disapproved" with the note "MG-violation of state law."  

So, I'm wondering if the particular examiner is misinformed on NC law, I am misinformed, or something in NC has changed.   Has anyone purchased a MG recently and had it approved or submitted a 5320.20 to transport a MG into NC and had it approved?

Thanks!
Link Posted: 7/11/2017 1:47:52 PM EDT
[#1]
You still need a machine gun permit issued by the sheriff of the county.

The applicable statute is NC General Statute 14-409.

§ 14-409.  Machine guns and other like weapons.
(a)        As used in this section, "machine gun" or "submachine gun" means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun, and any combination of parts from which a machine gun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
(b)        It shall be unlawful for any person, firm or corporation to manufacture, sell, give away, dispose of, use or possess machine guns, submachine guns, or other like weapons as defined by subsection (a) of this section: Provided, however, that this subsection shall not apply to the following:
Banks, merchants, and recognized business establishments for use in their respective places of business, who shall first apply to and receive from the sheriff of the county in which said business is located, a permit to possess the said weapons for the purpose of defending the said business; officers and soldiers of the United States Army, when in discharge of their official duties, officers and soldiers of the militia when called into actual service, officers of the State, or of any county, city or town, charged with the execution of the laws of the State, when acting in the discharge of their official duties; the manufacture, use or possession of such weapons for scientific or experimental purposes when such manufacture, use or possession is lawful under federal laws and the weapon is registered with a federal agency, and when a permit to manufacture, use or possess the weapon is issued by the sheriff of the county in which the weapon is located; a person who lawfully possesses or owns a weapon as defined by subsection (a) of this section in compliance with 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, §§ 5801-5871. Nothing in this subdivision shall limit the discretion of the sheriff in executing the paperwork required by the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for such person to obtain the weapon. Provided, further, that any bona fide resident of this State who now owns a machine gun used in former wars, as a relic or souvenir, may retain and keep same as his or her property without violating the provisions of this section upon his reporting said ownership to the sheriff of the county in which said person lives.
(c)        Any person violating any of the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class I felony.  (1933, c. 261, s. 1; 1959, c. 1073, s. 2; 1965, c. 1200; 1989, c. 680, s. 1; 1993, c. 539, s. 1243; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c); 1999-456, s. 33(b); 2011-268, s. 9.)
View Quote
Link Posted: 7/11/2017 1:52:52 PM EDT
[#2]
A few years back there was a flurry of discussion when an omnibus gun law reform act passed and people claimed a machine gun permit issued by the sheriff of the county was no longer required, but the that verbiage in the law never changed.

The "I got mine, screw you" NC NFA Association had inserted the last sentence: "Provided, further, that any bona fide resident of this State who now owns a machine gun used in former wars, as a relic or souvenir, may retain and keep same as his or her property without violating the provisions of this section upon his reporting said ownership to the sheriff of the county in which said person lives."   That basically grandfathered in most of the MGs that had been possessed before but didn't make it easier to get one.
Link Posted: 7/11/2017 3:09:10 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
A few years back there was a flurry of discussion when an omnibus gun law reform act passed and people claimed a machine gun permit issued by the sheriff of the county was no longer required, but the that verbiage in the law never changed.

The "I got mine, screw you" NC NFA Association had inserted the last sentence: "Provided, further, that any bona fide resident of this State who now owns a machine gun used in former wars, as a relic or souvenir, may retain and keep same as his or her property without violating the provisions of this section upon his reporting said ownership to the sheriff of the county in which said person lives."   That basically grandfathered in most of the MGs that had been possessed before but didn't make it easier to get one.
View Quote
Interesting, I was under the impression that this section was added as well and it makes no mention of a machinegun permit:

"...a person who lawfully possesses or owns a weapon as defined by subsection (a) of this section in compliance with 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, §§ 5801-5871"

I still have the machinegun permit issued by the sheriff in the county where I lived in NC. I wonder if I included a copy and was transporting the gun to that county if it would be approved?
Link Posted: 7/11/2017 3:45:16 PM EDT
[#4]
I read somewhere that the original language still exists, but new language was added that negated the permit as long as the applicant used the correct words in the "what is the reason for the firearm" etc.  If you used the old language, i.e. "research", etc.  you would still need to produce a permit from the sheriff.  If you used "hobby", etc. the ATF would not require the permit.

I have five MGs, four F4's & one F5, & I have never got a permit from my sheriff.  I heard that the ATF considers the signature on the F4 to be the permit.  But what about my F5?

If your original F4 has the sheriff's signature, plus you have an actual permit, I would think that would be enough to satisfy the ATF.  Call them & ask their advice.
Link Posted: 7/11/2017 4:50:37 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Interesting, I was under the impression that this section was added as well and it makes no mention of a machinegun permit:

"...a person who lawfully possesses or owns a weapon as defined by subsection (a) of this section in compliance with 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, §§ 5801-5871"

I still have the machinegun permit issued by the sheriff in the county where I lived in NC. I wonder if I included a copy and was transporting the gun to that county if it would be approved?
View Quote
Yes, that's in NCGS § 14-288.8 (b) 5.  But NCGS § 14-409 still includes the language requiring a machine gun permit issued by the sheriff of the county.  There is no case law.

Point that out to the NFA branch and see what they do.  They aren't lawyers or judges.
Link Posted: 7/12/2017 9:14:08 AM EDT
[#6]
The ATF can be morans most of the time. They are a fed agency but try and interpret the state laws, which is dumb.

OP I went through this a few years ago. Call the ATF, talk to the person that denied the 5320. They are wrong. You also don't need a sheriffs letter to get a 5320 approved.

AFA the sheriffs letter, you will find this to be a PITA as well. There is no standard, no form, and most have no idea on what the law says. There is no such thing as a "sherrifs letter/notification/etc.  I wish someone would take this to court as it would be cut down, but no one will.

ETA most of the "help" you are going to get is conjecture and WOMs. The ambiguous NC jim crow laws as well as the unwillingness of the AG or anyone to actually do anything is laughable.
Link Posted: 7/13/2017 1:50:41 AM EDT
[#7]
ODA_564  I am calling you out here buddy..

I am Jeff Lawrence, the founder and President of the NC NFA Defense Association..

We are anything but the "we got ours so screw you" crowd you accuse us of being, in fact we FOUGHT that crowd tooth and nail for 12 years to get the law changed..

I personally wrote the ammendment that created a new subsection to 14-288.8 and 14-409 that said subsection is as follows "; a person who lawfully possesses or owns a weapon as defined by subsection (a) of this section in compliance with 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, §§ 5801-5871. Nothing in this subdivision shall limit the discretion of the sheriff in executing the paperwork required by the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for such person to obtain the weapon."

This is the 1 and only reason that the mass majority of Machineguns are legal by letter of the law today in NC and it does according to the NFA legal department and NC create a seperate subsection of 14-409.b, which if followed properly not only eliminates the Sheriff's MG permit, but also every draconian BS restriction NC had in 14-288.8 and in 14-409..   It is an Exemption, therefore NOT subject to the "(c)        Any person violating any of the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class I felony. ..........)" as another poster pointed out..

We have helped every MG ower in this state own their weapon without the fear of prosecution from some poorly wriiten, even more poorly defined statutes and we have helped facilitate MG transfers into NC for dozens if not 100s of people.

First the subsection added by NCNFADA and GRNC is a seperate subsection exempt from the other provisions of 14-409 or 14-288.8...

part 1  see part 2
Link Posted: 7/13/2017 1:51:20 AM EDT
[#8]
part 2 of 2


For instance after December 2012 (when our ammendment was recognized) if you submited a Form 4 for a Machinegun transfer using the reason "Scientific Research or Defense of a Business" Then ATF is still going to require you to have a permit from the sheriff because you are still using the reasons of the statute that require such a permit.
IF HOWEVER,  you use any other reason under the sun.. Such as...  Collection, Investment, Sports Shooting, It Gives Me a Woody etc.. then NO permit is required...

Allow me to clarify

1.   NO MG PERMIT is required if you currently own the weapon in compliance with 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, §§ 5801-5871, which if it's registered and you have a tax stamp you do.
2.   NO MG PERMIT will be required for any pending form or transfer UNLESS you Specifically list NCGS 14-409, Scientific Research or Experimentation in your reasons for ownership.  Yes thats bass akwards from what it was prior to our ammendment being recognized in December of 2012.
3.   Landric..  feel free to email me the details of what was on your 5320 and I will personally assit you.

We don't spend much time on the web boards anymore, as real tasks in the NFA world keep us very busy, but this blatiant insult to our group deserved a reply.

Thank You
Jeff Lawrence
President & Founder
NC NFA Defense Assocation
Link Posted: 7/13/2017 7:40:18 AM EDT
[#9]
Thank you for posting Jeff. I personally know Jeff. He helped me tremendously in 2002 when I bought my first MGs as a somewhat new NC resident. Without his help I would not have started buying MGs. Over the years he has become a good friend. I know many others who have been helped by Jeff and the NCNFADA. ODA, your classification of the NCNFADA is dead wrong. As Jeff pointed out, there were some in the state who had the "I have mine, screw the rest" mentality. I have known Jeff and the NCNFADA to consistently and unwaveringly fight against that crowd in the attempt to make MG ownership in NC legal for all. MG collectors in NC frankly owe Jeff and the NCNFADA a debt of gratitude. Without his dedication, that of several others, and the support of Grass Roots NC, we would not have made the very significant gains in the NC gun laws over the last 7 or so years.
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top