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Posted: 7/17/2017 7:58:59 PM EDT
[#1]
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Hmm. I reload, and definitely prefer 9mm to .45. Subsonic or not isn't a huge deal. I don't want to blow anything up. What about steel case ammo in a transferable? Any worries there? On the M10 for example the chamber is pretty big for making sure it feeds good(you don't want it to mange to fire without the round going in). It trashes the brass. If you reload other ammo and shoot it in the gun you are fine but once the brass goes through the gun I'd trash it. At the range I make sure to sweep mine forward so people don't collect it. I've seen people say they can get a reload or two before trashing the brass but it is weakened by how the gun bulges it. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 12:15:01 AM EDT
[#2]
I shoot steel cased Wolf through my M3A1 grease gun all the time. I bought 10K rounds when I bought the gun and it was cheaper than I could reload at $175/thousand rnds shipped. Its also easy to pick up with the magnet I pick up links with. You can supposedly reload it but i do not reload brass from most of the machine guns since the chambers are very generous and the brass is stretched pretty far.
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Posted: 7/18/2017 2:30:13 AM EDT
[#3]
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@collegeboy I bought my Sten largely based on your recommendation. Recently I've been looking at M11/9s as well. Do you have a MAC or any thoughts on them? With all that said, Macs to me are VERY good investments though if you want a MG as an investment in my opinion. They are still cheap, and with the modularity, they will be $20,000 machine guns before we know it. Kind of rambled, but it's 2am, and you get the point. Glad you enjoy your Sten so much! |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 1:54:02 PM EDT
[#4]
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Ugh, I know you're right. It'll be 3-5 years before I can afford an Uzi, unfortunately. My career is in a rapidly growing phase right now, but it's not there yet. I know the Uzi is where my heart really is for several reasons. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yeah, the ONLY way I would consider an M11/9 is with a Lage upper. Possibly with a Sten mag conversion since I have a pile of them now. I've been bitten by the machine gun bug, and what I really want is an Uzi to go with my Sten but Macs are half the cost. I have a MP5, Sten, Reising, mk760 clone, Stemple, Thompson*, Uzi, a pile of macs.. The Sten and Uzi always go. The others ride the bench. Note the Thompson is new to me this month. I fell I am shoot it a lot too. I've seen a metric ton of guys write the same thing as you. A lot of them ultimately found themselves priced out of the market. Are you going to buy an UZI when they are pushing up on $20,000? Beg, borrow, steal the money for an UZI right away. I liquidated a collection of WWII guns to buy my UZI. The value of the UZI I bought has basically doubled since I got it. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 2:06:37 PM EDT
[#5]
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I have had a lot of trigger time behind a friend's Mac11/9, and it did nothing for me. Regular setup, different uppers, slow fire, suppressed, all sorts of combos. I do understand why people buy them, but for me there are just so many better options. I do not own one, but enjoy shooting my friends at the range. Again though, I have never had an interest to own one. I'd take the Sten over it EVERY time, and so would my friend. With all that said, Macs to me are VERY good investments though if you want a MG as an investment in my opinion. They are still cheap, and with the modularity, they will be $20,000 machine guns before we know it. Kind of rambled, but it's 2am, and you get the point. Glad you enjoy your Sten so much! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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@collegeboy I bought my Sten largely based on your recommendation. Recently I've been looking at M11/9s as well. Do you have a MAC or any thoughts on them? With all that said, Macs to me are VERY good investments though if you want a MG as an investment in my opinion. They are still cheap, and with the modularity, they will be $20,000 machine guns before we know it. Kind of rambled, but it's 2am, and you get the point. Glad you enjoy your Sten so much! I prefer vanilla ice cream. That is an accurate statement and that kind of ice cream is a solid bet, but it's not really a useful recommendation to another person. As a shooter, I would take one of the MACs over the STEN any day. The MAC makes for an excellent full auto modular trigger pack for all kinds of uppers, and in stock form is a rugged and surprisingly accurate gun. The big negative for the sten is the fact that it's extremely crude, it was designed for the absolute lowest possible production cost and it truly looks it. Even compared to the other sheet-metal guns the sten looks primitive. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 2:09:33 PM EDT
[#6]
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I've been watching MG forums for about 7 or 8 years now I've seen a metric ton of guys write the same thing as you. A lot of them ultimately found themselves priced out of the market. Are you going to buy an UZI when they are pushing up on $20,000? Beg, borrow, steal the money for an UZI right away. I liquidated a collection of WWII guns to buy my UZI. The value of the UZI I bought has basically doubled since I got it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yeah, the ONLY way I would consider an M11/9 is with a Lage upper. Possibly with a Sten mag conversion since I have a pile of them now. I've been bitten by the machine gun bug, and what I really want is an Uzi to go with my Sten but Macs are half the cost. I have a MP5, Sten, Reising, mk760 clone, Stemple, Thompson*, Uzi, a pile of macs.. The Sten and Uzi always go. The others ride the bench. Note the Thompson is new to me this month. I fell I am shoot it a lot too. I've seen a metric ton of guys write the same thing as you. A lot of them ultimately found themselves priced out of the market. Are you going to buy an UZI when they are pushing up on $20,000? Beg, borrow, steal the money for an UZI right away. I liquidated a collection of WWII guns to buy my UZI. The value of the UZI I bought has basically doubled since I got it. Plus, if I like my Sten as much as collegeboy, bending_rodriguez, and Chas8008 like theirs, I'll be alright while I wait.  So far I've only been able to hold it since I'm transferring through an SOT who doesn't have a range, but I absolutely love the design and the way the gun feels in my hands.
If it comes down to it, I may pick up an M11/9 to hedge against rising machine gun prices, but I think I'll be able to buy soon enough that it won't be a huge issue. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 5:49:42 PM EDT
[#7]
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You're expressing a purely personal preference for a particular firearm. Nothing wrong with that of course, but it's not particularly helpful to another person. I prefer vanilla ice cream. That is an accurate statement and that kind of ice cream is a solid bet, but it's not really a useful recommendation to another person. As a shooter, I would take one of the MACs over the STEN any day. The MAC makes for an excellent full auto modular trigger pack for all kinds of uppers, and in stock form is a rugged and surprisingly accurate gun. The big negative for the sten is the fact that it's extremely crude, it was designed for the absolute lowest possible production cost and it truly looks it. Even compared to the other sheet-metal guns the sten looks primitive. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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@collegeboy I bought my Sten largely based on your recommendation. Recently I've been looking at M11/9s as well. Do you have a MAC or any thoughts on them? With all that said, Macs to me are VERY good investments though if you want a MG as an investment in my opinion. They are still cheap, and with the modularity, they will be $20,000 machine guns before we know it. Kind of rambled, but it's 2am, and you get the point. Glad you enjoy your Sten so much! I prefer vanilla ice cream. That is an accurate statement and that kind of ice cream is a solid bet, but it's not really a useful recommendation to another person. As a shooter, I would take one of the MACs over the STEN any day. The MAC makes for an excellent full auto modular trigger pack for all kinds of uppers, and in stock form is a rugged and surprisingly accurate gun. The big negative for the sten is the fact that it's extremely crude, it was designed for the absolute lowest possible production cost and it truly looks it. Even compared to the other sheet-metal guns the sten looks primitive. 
What you call crude, I call elegant. I think Stens are beautiful and Macs look like ass. I still want both of them though. |
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Posted: 7/19/2017 12:35:36 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're expressing a purely personal preference for a particular firearm. Nothing wrong with that of course, but it's not particularly helpful to another person. I prefer vanilla ice cream. That is an accurate statement and that kind of ice cream is a solid bet, but it's not really a useful recommendation to another person. As a shooter, I would take one of the MACs over the STEN any day. The MAC makes for an excellent full auto modular trigger pack for all kinds of uppers, and in stock form is a rugged and surprisingly accurate gun. The big negative for the sten is the fact that it's extremely crude, it was designed for the absolute lowest possible production cost and it truly looks it. Even compared to the other sheet-metal guns the sten looks primitive. To the original poster, whatever you decide to buy, you are going to have fun, and have a more than likely appreciating asset. Enjoy! |
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Posted: 7/19/2017 11:16:14 AM EDT
[#9]
The Sten is crude enough that if parts kits dry up eventually, you can probably manufacture replacement parts without much trouble or expense.
That by itself is a virtue. |
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Posted: 7/19/2017 12:08:19 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Sten is crude enough that if parts kits dry up eventually, you can probably manufacture replacement parts without much trouble or expense. That by itself is a virtue. |
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Posted: 7/19/2017 9:39:14 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If want you really want is an Uzi, nut up and get the Uzi. I have a MP5, Sten, Reising, mk760 clone, Stemple, Thompson*, Uzi, a pile of macs.. The Sten and Uzi always go. The others ride the bench. Note the Thompson is new to me this month. I fell I am shoot it a lot too. I feel moronic that I just made the connection that CollegeBoy is Machine Gun Mike LOL!! I'm 80% of the way to a Colt M16A1 as my first machine gun. After that, I'm planning on saving up another year for a HK sear mostly just to own a MP5, so I'm really surprised and curious why you prefer the Uzi over the MP5. |
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Posted: 7/19/2017 10:46:19 PM EDT
[#12]
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Out of curiosity, why the Uzi over the MP5? I feel moronic that I just made the connection that CollegeBoy is Machine Gun Mike LOL!! I'm 80% of the way to a Colt M16A1 as my first machine gun. After that, I'm planning on saving up another year for a HK sear mostly just to own a MP5, so I'm really surprised and curious why you prefer the Uzi over the MP5. My MP5 cost me $8/900 in from lower housing to bolt and carrier springs. I can not keep it running.. |
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Posted: 7/20/2017 10:40:18 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Out of curiosity, why the Uzi over the MP5? I feel moronic that I just made the connection that CollegeBoy is Machine Gun Mike LOL!! I'm 80% of the way to a Colt M16A1 as my first machine gun. After that, I'm planning on saving up another year for a HK sear mostly just to own a MP5, so I'm really surprised and curious why you prefer the Uzi over the MP5. People own big gun collections sometimes but they will end up bringing the same 3 or 4 guns to the range over and over. Sometimes it has nothing to do with the performance or efficiency of the gun. On paper, the Marlin 30-30 lever gun is mediocre. It's not particularly accurate and the cartridge is low velocity. But people love shooting them, they're satisfying. If you own one, you find yourself taking it to the range and dicking around with it over and over again. If you piled up a whole bunch of SMGs on a table, I personally would take a WWII Thompson M1A1. For some reason, I shoot that gun best and I enjoy shooting it the most. I also like the historic aspects of the gun from a collecting standpoint. The UZI is my second favorite. It's so light and handy that it's very pleasing to shoot. Even though it's tiny it handles very well. |
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Posted: 7/20/2017 10:50:46 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My MP5 cost me $8/900 in from lower housing to bolt and carrier springs. I can not keep it running.. 
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Posted: 7/20/2017 11:07:40 AM EDT
[#15]
Years ago, when Uzis were $8k and MP5's were $18k, I seriously considered trading up.
When I thought it through, though, I decided to pass. Here's why: My full-size Vector Uzi is the Energizer Bunny of SMGs -- and not just in one caliber: It runs as fine in full-auto in .45 ACP and .22 RF (!!!) as it does in 9mm. With the simple addition of buffers of different lengths, I can make it run as slow, or as fast, in any caliber, as anyone could want. I have a suppressor (serial-numbered to match the Uzi) that replaces the barrel nut, so no issues about it unscrewing, or ever being difficult to remove. With two different-length QD stocks, it can easily and quickly be adjusted to fit little kids or big guys. Extra optics-mounted top covers give it more flexibility; mags are cheap and plentiful. Did I mention that it runs 110% in all three calibers? In fact, it is the only reliable .22 RF SMG I have ever shot. Now think about what it would cost to have an HK system that meets all of those criteria and goals. Nope, I stuck with the Uzi. As always, Your Mileage May Vary.
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Posted: 7/20/2017 11:14:29 AM EDT
[#16]
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That's because you are not slapping it hard enough. MP5's like it rough. I have had to replace extractor springs with some regularity, rollers as the trunnion wears, recoil springs, roller retaining wires, and it sucks that you can't just pull the barrel on the fly and replace it right away. It is a serious pain in the ass that requires specialty tools, experience, and expensive parts. I like that with my Uzi I could smoothbore a barrel and change it out it 30 seconds, and if I break something or wear out a spring I can just throw another surplus bolt in there. All parts are cheap as hell and shooting it is just fun. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 12:43:10 AM EDT
[#17]
I have to agree. Yes my HKs are super cool, and have been 100% reliable, but open bolt sub guns are just so much cheaper to buy, own, and stock up parts for. My Uzi runs like ass in 22, but in 45 and 9, so far it's been perfect! If he can afford Uzi pricing, then making the jump from a Sten or a Mac up to an Uzi is an obvious choice.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I love the roller-delayed HK guns, but they are much higher maintenance than the open-bolt stuff. I have had to replace extractor springs with some regularity, rollers as the trunnion wears, recoil springs, roller retaining wires, and it sucks that you can't just pull the barrel on the fly and replace it right away. It is a serious pain in the ass that requires specialty tools, experience, and expensive parts. I like that with my Uzi I could smoothbore a barrel and change it out it 30 seconds, and if I break something or wear out a spring I can just throw another surplus bolt in there. All parts are cheap as hell and shooting it is just fun. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 2:49:05 AM EDT
[#18]
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The M2 carbine, just like the M1 carbine, likes ammo loaded on the hot side in order to function properly. Most of the commercial ammo available these days is not loaded hot enough for them. The problem with M2s isn't a supply of spare parts, its a decent supply of hot ammo and hoping the receiver or the serialized conversion part doesn't suffer any damage. For a lower cost MG, its hard to beat the M11/9 for parts availability. There are so many of them out there being shot on a regular basis, someone will always make parts for them. I have shot a couple STENS for test fires, I wish I had bought them for the prices they fetch now. But at the time I found them boring compared to my M11/9. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 2:57:33 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks for the input everybody. I have a 1919A4 and an AC-556, but was interested in a Sten or M-2 carbine. Any experiences with parts availability on the Sten or M-2? Thanks again. You should try to find a place that has MG rentals and fire a STEN before you buy one. They are extremely crude devices and disappointingly not fun. You can't change anything on them (stocks: 2, that's about it) and can't mount anything on them unless you're drilling into the tube or welding something on first. I have one and frankly, it sucks. It has the ergonomics of a tree branch and is about as elegant as a rusted steel drainpipe. Get an UZI or an M-11/9. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 10:42:19 AM EDT
[#20]
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I have to agree. Yes my HKs are super cool, and have been 100% reliable, but open bolt sub guns are just so much cheaper to buy, own, and stock up parts for. My Uzi runs like ass in 22, but in 45 and 9, so far it's been perfect! If he can afford Uzi pricing, then making the jump from a Sten or a Mac up to an Uzi is an obvious choice. Big improvement. The plastic mags are a waste of money. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 11:01:30 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess I'll be the naysayer here. You should try to find a place that has MG rentals and fire a STEN before you buy one. They are extremely crude devices and disappointingly not fun. You can't change anything on them (stocks: 2, that's about it) and can't mount anything on them unless you're drilling into the tube or welding something on first. I have one and frankly, it sucks. It has the ergonomics of a tree branch and is about as elegant as a rusted steel drainpipe. Get an UZI or an M-11/9. Even though they are good guns, I sold the two MACs and kept the UZI. The UZI is a sheet metal gun but it was designed and built like a premium grade gun. Nothing about it is crude. For example, the front sight is made from solid steel and is adjustable for windage and elevation. The rear sight is a peep that flips between 100 meters and 200 meter zero. It's not an extravagant sight, but it lacks nothing that you would need. That's the way the whole gun is designed. It's sheet metal but it's refined and cleverly designed. The gun is also modular and can be stripped down to the bare receiver in seconds. The barrel is retained by a clever racheting nut assembly. The cocking knob is non-reciprocating and has a clever gizmo to keep the gun from firing if you accidentally release the knob while cocking the gun. It's just a very well designed gun and the build quality was excellent. The magazines are one of the best SMG mags ever made and they are cheap, you can get NOS milsurp for like $14 each. It's also the ideal size for a 9mm subgun. It's a tiny gun but it points and handles like a little tiny rifle. The UZI is the Rolls Royce of the $300 sheet metal MGs. It was designed to lack for nothing. |
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Posted: 7/22/2017 1:59:20 AM EDT
[#22]
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Loaded hot or do you mean loaded to USGI spec? I have an ammo can of USGI that I bought from the CMP that I only shoot on special occasions or to really make sure an issue is the gun or the ammo. Its hard to find anything on the lower cost side that doesn't seem like its half loaded with saw dust... like Wolf or Aguila. |
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Posted: 7/22/2017 10:19:48 AM EDT
[#23]
Going back to the OPs original question, the most easily supportable MGs are what?
WWII Thompson M16 MAC UZI Those are the ones where you could strip the gun down to the bare receiver and have it completely populated with parts in a 2 or 3 days. There are probably others. I put WWII Thompson because the earlier pre-war Colt Thompsons are made of unobtainium. An original 1921 Colt buttstock is worth around $4000. |
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Posted: 7/22/2017 10:49:57 AM EDT
[#24]
Sten
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Posted: 7/22/2017 3:06:15 PM EDT
[#25]
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Did you try the original Vector 22 mags with the metal feed lips with your 22 kit? Big improvement. The plastic mags are a waste of money. |
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Posted: 7/22/2017 3:56:45 PM EDT
[#26]
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Yes. I have all the different types of mags. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Did you try the original Vector 22 mags with the metal feed lips with your 22 kit? Big improvement. The plastic mags are a waste of money. After he worked his magic, it ran 97% with plastic mags and near 100% with the metal BWE mags. The slow-fire conversion brings the ROF down to well under 700 rpm. And while you do have to monitor the rising crud levels, it goes way longer between cleaning stops than my .22 M16 kit or the American 180 I usta run. As always, YMMV. |
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Posted: 7/22/2017 4:04:18 PM EDT
[#27]
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FWIW, Richard Hoffman of BWE is only a few hours from me, so I took my host Uzi and .22 kit to him to tune, tweak and do his slow-fire .22 conversion. I had also bought 12 of his BWE .22 Uzi mags (factory 9mm mags sleeved down to 28-round single-stack .22 rimfire). After he worked his magic, it ran 97% with plastic mags and near 100% with the metal BWE mags. The slow-fire conversion brings the ROF down to well under 700 rpm. And while you do have to monitor the rising crud levels, it goes way longer between cleaning stops than my .22 M16 kit or the American 180 I usta run. As always, YMMV. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Did you try the original Vector 22 mags with the metal feed lips with your 22 kit? Big improvement. The plastic mags are a waste of money. After he worked his magic, it ran 97% with plastic mags and near 100% with the metal BWE mags. The slow-fire conversion brings the ROF down to well under 700 rpm. And while you do have to monitor the rising crud levels, it goes way longer between cleaning stops than my .22 M16 kit or the American 180 I usta run. As always, YMMV. 
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Posted: 7/22/2017 6:28:47 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
FWIW, Richard Hoffman of BWE is only a few hours from me, so I took my host Uzi and .22 kit to him to tune, tweak and do his slow-fire .22 conversion. I had also bought 12 of his BWE .22 Uzi mags (factory 9mm mags sleeved down to 28-round single-stack .22 rimfire). After he worked his magic, it ran 97% with plastic mags and near 100% with the metal BWE mags. The slow-fire conversion brings the ROF down to well under 700 rpm. And while you do have to monitor the rising crud levels, it goes way longer between cleaning stops than my .22 M16 kit or the American 180 I usta run. As always, YMMV. |
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