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Posted: 3/5/2017 11:44:03 PM EDT
[#1]
Talk with the seller, do you have a good feel, does he know the gun?
Check the seller out, is there a real address, real phone number, work number, work address. Is he active on the forums? If so, go see it the gun. A plane ticket would make you feel much better about a $30,000 deal. If everything checks out sign a contract (you might have to pay an attorney to draw one up, but it is a $30,000 deal), pay for the gun, take the non restricted parts with you and WAIT (and wait, and wait). In the end there is a certain amount of trust involved. Do you due diligence and make sure you are comfortable with the seller. |
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Posted: 3/6/2017 2:05:49 AM EDT
[#2]
You have to verify the deal somehow.
Don't just send your money to some stranger. As a minimum, make sure the guy has a ton of feedback on gunbroker or ebay. If you get scammed, you will absolutely no way to recover your money, and nobody will help you. There's no Federal Bureau of Machine Guns to come to your aid. I once suggested that the seller should send the buyer a cell phone video of the gun, showing the serial number. I thought that was a good idea since it would only take a minute and would be hard to fake. But everyone on here was appalled and said it was a bad idea. They said that they would refuse to sell to a buyer who demanded such an absurd and intrusive thing. Instead, just use your psychic mind powers to look into the soul of the seller. Much easier than getting a 30 second video with a cell phone. |
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Posted: 3/6/2017 2:14:24 AM EDT
[#3]
a Plane ticket might be worth it for a big ticket NFA item
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Posted: 3/6/2017 4:08:28 AM EDT
[#4]
As crazy as it sounds I've always just made a couple phone calls to talk to the sellers, and maybe other people who may know them, then just PayPaled them or mailed them a check. No contracts or anything. A phone call goes a long way IMO, so no matter what all you do, do that first. I bought an HK sear, M60, Colt M16, PPSh-41, and 1921 Colt Thompson all this way.
Ive sold two machine guns the same way too. I talked to them on the phone and sent pictures. Then they paid up. |
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Posted: 3/6/2017 11:00:47 AM EDT
[#5]
If getting on a plane and going to see the gun in person is a problem, try reaching out to an FFL/SOT local to the seller who would be willing to look over the gun and paperwork for you to see if it's legit, give you an idea of its condition, etc. You may have to pay a small fee for the service but I'd do it before shelling out tens of thousands of dollars. Also ask for a video of the gun being fired.
There are a lot of scammers out there who will advertise machine guns as a private sale, 10% deposit starts the paperwork. Well, 10% of the price of a transferrable machine gun is still a good chunk of change and by the time you realize you've been ripped off the scammer is long gone. |
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Posted: 3/6/2017 11:32:08 AM EDT
[#6]
Just don't ask for a cell phone video of the gun, that would be CRAZY.
Imagine asking the seller of a $25,000 item to take a 60 second cell phone video. That would be 60 seconds of his life that he'd never get back. Outrageous! Unthinkable! |
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Posted: 3/6/2017 11:41:30 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As crazy as it sounds I've always just made a couple phone calls to talk to the sellers, and maybe other people who may know them, then just PayPaled them or mailed them a check. No contracts or anything. A phone call goes a long way IMO, so no matter what all you do, do that first. I bought an HK sear, M60, Colt M16, PPSh-41, and 1921 Colt Thompson all this way. Ive sold two machine guns the same way too. I talked to them on the phone and sent pictures. Then they paid up. There are a lot of scammers out there now. I know of a guy who was ripped off of $11,000 by a gun dealer who faked the paperwork for an imaginary gun. The guy burned a bunch of people and then disappeared. One way or the other, you should see the paperwork and the gun before you pay. These guns are worth a fortune now, it's not like the old days when they were selling for $1000 and you could hardly get rid of them. Times change and you need to update your methods or you're liable to get burned. One thing that sellers don't understand is that if you make the buyers comfortable, you will get more buyers and higher bids. A lot of buyers will pay an inflated dealer price like on Rueben's website, just so they can feel comfortable with the sale. The extra 10% is worth it to them because sending a check for $13,000 to a stranger in Kansas is too risky. So anything you can do to show the deal is legitimate will increase the interest in your sale. But whatever you do, don't ask the seller for a video of the gun, and if you're selling the gun don't take a video. That's a bad idea. Just because. It breaks The Unwritten Law. |
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Posted: 3/6/2017 11:56:12 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know of a guy who was ripped off of $11,000 by a gun dealer who faked the paperwork for an imaginary gun. Was the scammer an actual licensee or just some turd who had a falsified FFL? |
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Posted: 3/6/2017 1:06:42 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Was the scammer an actual licensee or just some turd who had a falsified FFL? Apparently the scammer was an FFL. Ripped everyone off and then disappeared. Make sure you see the paperwork and the gun, and not just still photos. There are still photos of MG sales all over the internet, a scammer can get them easy. Seriously, if I couldn't see the gun in person, I'd have the seller put a piece of paper on the gun that said "Bubbles 3/6/2017" and then make a video of the gun and zoom in on the Form 4 and the serial number of the gun. That would eliminate 99.99% of the scam artists. To fake the video, the scammer would need a fake MG with a fake serial number on it. The best thing is to get some kind of verification in person. If you can't get to the seller's location, have the guy bring the gun to a class 3 dealer and pay the dealer to examine the gun. The mentality of this marketplace is going to adapt to the fact that these guns are worth a ton of money, one way or the other. If you send money to some stranger and it turns out to be a scam, you are FUCKED. You'll never see a dime of the money again. |
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Posted: 3/6/2017 3:13:21 PM EDT
[#10]
FWIW, when I bought my M16A1 back in 1994, it was from a kitchen-table FFL/SOT in the next county. He was shutting down and selling off all his inventory. It all went well.
Fast-forward to 1998, and I saw a reference check about him on subguns.com. Everyone piled on to scream, "DON'T DEAL WITH HIM!!!" Apparently he had sold several of his transferable MGs to multiple buyers, including many well-known NFA dealers, who paid in full, then never saw a thing. They were still looking for him .... guess I lucked out (a) because I was local, and (b) he knew that I was in a profession that could make his life miserable. 
Of course, those were the days of $800 C&R STEns, $1,000 NIB Ruger AC556's, $2,000 Colt M16s and Polytech AKs and $3,500 Maremont M60's (those are what he had for sale in 1994), so no one was flying in to hunt him. Still, even genuine FFL/SOTs can rip you off, and some have been doing exactly that for decades. 
Buyer beware. |
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Posted: 3/6/2017 4:51:39 PM EDT
[#11]
Genuine SOTs CAN and WILL rip you off.
Severa well known SOTs are cut throat and back stabbers from my Uncles experience as an SOT for many years. Personal favorite was his deal on HK21E barrels that he got a hook up from his cousin in Italy. There was a time in the US when my uncle was only local source for HK21E barrels until he was convicted of a felony. Then all of the SOTs came out like wolves.......asking for pennies on the dollar prices. Thank god... I got a lot transferred and he found good customers that took care of him. So be careful and BE VIGILANT. |
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Posted: 3/6/2017 5:27:34 PM EDT
[#12]
I paid the extra premium and bought from a dealer with a store front and good BBB rating.
Only way I would buy from a individual is if it was someone on here or another site who had a good record as being trust worthy, regularly attended NFA shoots, had a large existing NFA collection, etc... And would be easy as pie to track down if he decided to go rogue. Based on how much MGs are appreciating you should recover that premium in the first year of ownership. |
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Posted: 3/6/2017 10:04:39 PM EDT
[#13]
I bought from Ruben and transferred through a local dealer that Ruben recommended and half of Arfcom recommended. The premium I paid was about $300-500 on a $7,000 Sten.
This isn't a game to pinch pennies in. Having the seller take a cell phone video showing the serial would go a long way. How guys send a check for $50k to some AOL email on Subguns is beyond me. |
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Posted: 3/7/2017 2:39:02 AM EDT
[#14]
I'm well aware of the scammers now, as I started buying machine guns in just 2011 or 2012.
I know most people do way more tha I do. I'm just saying whatever you do, start with a phone call and a nice long chat. It does wonders. Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are a lot of scammers out there now. I know of a guy who was ripped off of $11,000 by a gun dealer who faked the paperwork for an imaginary gun. The guy burned a bunch of people and then disappeared. One way or the other, you should see the paperwork and the gun before you pay. These guns are worth a fortune now, it's not like the old days when they were selling for $1000 and you could hardly get rid of them. Times change and you need to update your methods or you're liable to get burned. One thing that sellers don't understand is that if you make the buyers comfortable, you will get more buyers and higher bids. A lot of buyers will pay an inflated dealer price like on Rueben's website, just so they can feel comfortable with the sale. The extra 10% is worth it to them because sending a check for $13,000 to a stranger in Kansas is too risky. So anything you can do to show the deal is legitimate will increase the interest in your sale. But whatever you do, don't ask the seller for a video of the gun, and if you're selling the gun don't take a video. That's a bad idea. Just because. It breaks The Unwritten Law. |
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Posted: 3/8/2017 5:46:23 PM EDT
[#15]
Even giving money to dealers is a dicey proposition as a lot of them don't own the actual firearm, just a broker.
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Posted: 3/8/2017 8:23:08 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Even giving money to dealers is a dicey proposition as a lot of them don't own the actual firearm, just a broker. Which is one of the arguments against buying from that type of dealer, and buying only from a dealer that has the machine gun in his inventory. There's no fool-proof purchase method, and it also depends on how hard it is to find the particular gun you're looking for. If you want a Mac, you have options. If you want a Beretta 93R, you don't have options. Obviously an extreme example, but if you're looking for something special you may have to do business with someone you otherwise wouldn't want to.
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Posted: 3/8/2017 11:22:25 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which is one of the arguments against buying from that type of dealer, and buying only from a dealer that has the machine gun in his inventory. There's no fool-proof purchase method, and it also depends on how hard it is to find the particular gun you're looking for. If you want a Mac, you have options. If you want a Beretta 93R, you don't have options. Obviously an extreme example, but if you're looking for something special you may have to do business with someone you otherwise wouldn't want to. Yup. It's always tough. You do need to be able to read people. Alternatively, you can always just say, "This is too risky," and never own an MG. To me, life is too short for that... Since I am not an FFL, I am always amazed by folks sending me checks in the five figures for MGs I happen to be selling. I always work so hard to make sure they know what they are getting, and to keep them informed at every step, and I'm also willing to talk -- for hours, sometimes -- about their MGs in particular and MGs in general. It helps that I love talking about them, but I am grateful that so many folks have trusted me (and I hope and pray they are happy with their purchases). |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 12:54:24 PM EDT
[#18]
Me personally, dealer stuff aside... I'm only comfortable buying from two different types of sellers.
One, another well trusted dealer... even at a premium. The other, a very trusted person with references. If say, a SWAT guy comes in and says "My chief is selling his transferable Mac 10, are you interested?" If the paperwork checks out, and the gun is legit. No problems, I wouldn't have an issue trusting someone in a position like that. High up references, fairly public figure, and someone that's easy to track down if things go south. |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 4:54:11 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How guys send a check for $50k to some AOL email on Subguns is beyond me. This can't go on much longer. Sooner or later buyers are going to demand a more COB deal. Perhaps a $1000 down no refund to start paperwork, and the rest at pick up. This would probably be more popular if wait times were under 30 days or so. |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 11:46:48 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This can't go on much longer. Sooner or later buyers are going to demand a more COB deal. Perhaps a $1000 down no refund to start paperwork, and the rest at pick up. This would probably be more popular if wait times were under 30 days or so. That will never become the norm with the way things are. If a buyer told me that was their terms, then I'd tell them to go pound sand, and move on to the next buyer. So would almost all other machine gun sellers as well as you. The only way things like that would happen is if the laws changed, and MGs weren't so rare and sought after any more, and that 's never happening. |
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Posted: 3/10/2017 2:32:17 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This can't go on much longer. Sooner or later buyers are going to demand a more COB deal. Perhaps a $1000 down no refund to start paperwork, and the rest at pick up. This would probably be more popular if wait times were under 30 days or so. I could personally see offering terms like that if I sold one of my machineguns in the future and wait times get back to a bit more normal. (say 6 months) As an individual you are taking a hit in terms of sale price when competing against one of the high end reputable dealer. If we use M16s as an example. Ruben is selling Colts A1s for what $29K to $30K and conversions for $20Kish. I suspect that a private seller would net at best $25kish on a Colt and $17ish for a conversion gun which is essentially a $3 to 5K risk penalty tax. It wouldn't surprise me that if an individual offered a Colt M16 for $1000 down and balance upon receipt that you could get another $2K ($27K vs. $25K) on the deal from an in-State buyer (especially if you live in a large state MG market like Texas, Florida, etc). For the buyer, their financial risk is drastically minimized, there is no F3 wait, no in-state dealer transfer fee, they lock in the price now, get 6 months to sell other guns/accessories if needed, and its ultimately up to the buyer to remit the sales tax if required. (should they choose to) vs. an in-State dealer who is going to collect tax at point of sale. Sure you don't get your funds for say 6 months but if you don't need the money right away, getting an addition 2K on a 25K gun (netting 27K) over 6 months is essentially a low risk ~15% interest loan to the seller. $2000 in upside selling for $27K vs. $25K in exchange for "loaning" the buyer $26K for 6ish months and knocking their risk profile down 90+ percent. Even if they default and you keep the $1000, its still a ~7% cash rate of return and you get to ride the gun appreciation up another 6 months. |
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Posted: 3/10/2017 12:29:02 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That will never become the norm with the way things are. If a buyer told me that was their terms, then I'd tell them to go pound sand, and move on to the next buyer. So would almost all other machine gun sellers as well as you. The only way things like that would happen is if the laws changed, and MGs weren't so rare and sought after any more, and that 's never happening. I am not talking about the way things are, I am postulating that eventually if prices get high enough, there isn't going to be a next buyer, willing to mail off $100K to a guy on internet. Especially if he has to wait 6/9/12 months to get approval. 10+ years ago 50/50 was pretty common, then buyers drove 100% upfront to lock in prices due to inflation and long waits. Buyers will once again change the rules. |
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Posted: 3/10/2017 12:33:09 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I could personally see offering terms like that if I sold one of my machineguns in the future and wait times get back to a bit more normal. (say 6 months) As an individual you are taking a hit in terms of sale price when competing against one of the high end reputable dealer. If we use M16s as an example. Ruben is selling Colts A1s for what $29K to $30K and conversions for $20Kish. I suspect that a private seller would net at best $25kish on a Colt and $17ish for a conversion gun which is essentially a $3 to 5K risk penalty tax. It wouldn't surprise me that if an individual offered a Colt M16 for $1000 down and balance upon receipt that you could get another $2K ($27K vs. $25K) on the deal from an in-State buyer (especially if you live in a large state MG market like Texas, Florida, etc). For the buyer, their financial risk is drastically minimized, there is no F3 wait, no in-state dealer transfer fee, they lock in the price now, get 6 months to sell other guns/accessories if needed, and its ultimately up to the buyer to remit the sales tax if required. (should they choose to) vs. an in-State dealer who is going to collect tax at point of sale. Sure you don't get your funds for say 6 months but if you don't need the money right away, getting an addition 2K on a 25K gun (netting 27K) over 6 months is essentially a low risk ~15% interest loan to the seller. $2000 in upside selling for $27K vs. $25K in exchange for "loaning" the buyer $26K for 6ish months and knocking their risk profile down 90+ percent. Even if they default and you keep the $1000, its still a ~7% cash rate of return and you get to ride the gun appreciation up another 6 months. Exactly. and $1000 was just a made up number. I would think 10-20% of purchase price would be more reasonable. |
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Posted: 3/10/2017 12:47:09 PM EDT
[#24]
10% down in certified funds starts the paperwork, the remainder due when the transfer is approved to either the buyer or the transfer FFL.
We have a sales contract for machine gun sales to cover ourselves and the buyer b/c so much money is on the line. I'm honestly surprised how many people are just willing to drop cash and walk away with no receipt or other evidence of payment. |
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Posted: 3/10/2017 3:03:22 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That will never become the norm with the way things are. If a buyer told me that was their terms, then I'd tell them to go pound sand, and move on to the next buyer. So would almost all other machine gun sellers as well as you. The only way things like that would happen is if the laws changed, and MGs weren't so rare and sought after any more, and that 's never happening. You honestly think that the way these guns are sold is never going to change? If you insist that your buyers just send a huge check to some unknown person, a lot of the buyers will refuse. Because now that the scammers are running scams, just trusting some stranger with $25,000 is crazy. When you sell anything, less buyers generally means lower prices. My advice to anyone reading this is absolutely refuse to just mail a check to a private seller. One way or the other, you need verification that the deal is legitimate. To just send a check to some guy you don't know is crazy. If the deal turns out to be a scam, you will lose your money. Period. People buy very expensive jewelry through the mail, but they use an escrow service. |
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Posted: 3/11/2017 2:02:09 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You honestly think that the way these guns are sold is never going to change? If you insist that your buyers just send a huge check to some unknown person, a lot of the buyers will refuse. Because now that the scammers are running scams, just trusting some stranger with $25,000 is crazy. When you sell anything, less buyers generally means lower prices. My advice to anyone reading this is absolutely refuse to just mail a check to a private seller. One way or the other, you need verification that the deal is legitimate. To just send a check to some guy you don't know is crazy. If the deal turns out to be a scam, you will lose your money. Period. People buy very expensive jewelry through the mail, but they use an escrow service. You refuse sending payment asap on a great MG price, and someone else just jumps ahead of you and buys it. It's happened many times. I've had people mail me $35,000+ checks without ever meeting me, and after just 1 phone call, and I've done the same for several machine guns. Met in person for a couple others too. One meeting.....here's your cash.....see you later. I understand the concerns though, and I'm not saying it's not important to do as much homework as possible, and make yourself safe as much as possible. Just saying I don't see it changing all that much unless laws change, but whatever.....I can't read to future. It's a sellers market. If that ever changes, then I see things changing. Until then I do not. |
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Posted: 3/11/2017 1:15:17 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You refuse sending payment asap on a great MG price, and someone else just jumps ahead of you and buys it. It's happened many times. I've had people mail me $35,000+ checks without ever meeting me, and after just 1 phone call, and I've done the same for several machine guns. Met in person for a couple others too. One meeting.....here's your cash.....see you later. I think you are missing the point. We are not talking about the past, but the future. Nothing stays the same. 20 years ago I paid in full when paperwork was approved, then I started seeing 50/50. Then 100% upfront. The market is changing. I expect a new model will soon take over as prices rise and waits go down. It will result in higher prices for seller who does not need money NOW. Will everyone adopt it? Of course not, but those that do will see higher SP. There is a reason Ruben gets 25% more than everyone else. He has a better model. When I decide to sell, I am going to use a better model, that puts more money in my wallet. |
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Posted: 3/11/2017 2:04:46 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think you are missing the point. We are not talking about the past, but the future. Nothing stays the same. 20 years ago I paid in full when paperwork was approved, then I started seeing 50/50. Then 100% upfront. The market is changing. I expect a new model will soon take over as prices rise and waits go down. It will result in higher prices for seller who does not need money NOW. Will everyone adopt it? Of course not, but those that do will see higher SP. There is a reason Ruben gets 25% more than everyone else. He has a better model. When I decide to sell, I am going to use a better model, that puts more money in my wallet. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You refuse sending payment asap on a great MG price, and someone else just jumps ahead of you and buys it. It's happened many times. I've had people mail me $35,000+ checks without ever meeting me, and after just 1 phone call, and I've done the same for several machine guns. Met in person for a couple others too. One meeting.....here's your cash.....see you later. I think you are missing the point. We are not talking about the past, but the future. Nothing stays the same. 20 years ago I paid in full when paperwork was approved, then I started seeing 50/50. Then 100% upfront. The market is changing. I expect a new model will soon take over as prices rise and waits go down. It will result in higher prices for seller who does not need money NOW. Will everyone adopt it? Of course not, but those that do will see higher SP. There is a reason Ruben gets 25% more than everyone else. He has a better model. When I decide to sell, I am going to use a better model, that puts more money in my wallet. Bingo. Just look at the dealer who does 50/50 payment right now. atfmachinegun.com I think? His prices are higher than Ruben because it allows buyers to pay half now and half upon approval in nearly a year. And people pay it. If you're a private seller and want top dollar, offering different payment options is going to get you there. |
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Posted: 3/11/2017 2:43:23 PM EDT
[#29]
What's is Rubens model? When I've bought from him, it was 100% upfront. Has that changed? Really, I'm curious. Been a couple months since I bought from him.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think you are missing the point. We are not talking about the past, but the future. Nothing stays the same. 20 years ago I paid in full when paperwork was approved, then I started seeing 50/50. Then 100% upfront. The market is changing. I expect a new model will soon take over as prices rise and waits go down. It will result in higher prices for seller who does not need money NOW. Will everyone adopt it? Of course not, but those that do will see higher SP. There is a reason Ruben gets 25% more than everyone else. He has a better model. When I decide to sell, I am going to use a better model, that puts more money in my wallet. |
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Posted: 3/11/2017 3:39:40 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What's is Rubens model? When I've bought from him, it was 100% upfront. Has that changed? Really, I'm curious. Been a couple months since I bought from him. Reputation, Trust, Customer Service. Apparently a lot of people will pay 25% or more for that. |
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Posted: 3/11/2017 7:00:35 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Reputation, Trust, Customer Service. Apparently a lot of people will pay 25% or more for that. With the amount of shadiness on this industry it's not surprising at all. Ruben certainly has the corner on those three things. Having done a fair amount of transfers from Ruben I can say he's consistently on the ball. All the brokering eventually leads to someone getting the shitty end of the stick, and tends to attract a lot of the "Used Car Salesmen" types. |
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Posted: 3/13/2017 1:33:20 PM EDT
[#32]
yep, I don't know how anyone can send this type of money out sight unseen. It was bad enough 7 years ago when a Mac was $2500. And wait times were two months are less. Now you send out a lot more money, the wait time is forever and a lot of sellers are along in years. You buy a machine gun from some guy who is 70 plus and there is a decent probability he will be dead or unable to manage his affairs in 9 months.
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Posted: 3/14/2017 10:10:31 AM EDT
[#33]
This always comes up.
Machineguns are a sellers market. I will not sell one unless buyer pays 100 percent up front. Its been done since the NFA has been around and will be here in the future. It just will not change. People said it would change 20 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago. It still has not changed. If you snooze you lose on MGs. If I took a payment which is not in my best interest, I would not send off the paperwork unless I had all the money. Whats stopping a buyer from trying to sue me if he put 50 percent down and then found out the form was approved and told a judge that was the agreed price. I have to sign the Form 4 to send it in and it would look like the buyer is correct to a judge. We live in a sue happy society and im not taking a risk. Its always first time buyers who bring this up. Once you buy a MG or two, youll understand |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 7:08:30 PM EDT
[#34]
I agree with you 100%
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This always comes up. Machineguns are a sellers market. I will not sell one unless buyer pays 100 percent up front. Its been done since the NFA has been around and will be here in the future. It just will not change. People said it would change 20 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago. It still has not changed. If you snooze you lose on MGs. If I took a payment which is not in my best interest, I would not send off the paperwork unless I had all the money. Whats stopping a buyer from trying to sue me if he put 50 percent down and then found out the form was approved and told a judge that was the agreed price. I have to sign the Form 4 to send it in and it would look like the buyer is correct to a judge. We live in a sue happy society and im not taking a risk. Its always first time buyers who bring this up. Once you buy a MG or two, youll understand |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 9:55:00 PM EDT
[#35]
I bought my first from "college boy" and used him for his opinion on the 2nd I bought from David. It really is a small community and pays to network those who have come before and trust those that do this for a living. Oh and I paid firm asking price
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Posted: 3/15/2017 12:11:50 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This always comes up. Machineguns are a sellers market. I will not sell one unless buyer pays 100 percent up front. Its been done since the NFA has been around and will be here in the future. It just will not change. People said it would change 20 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago. It still has not changed. If you snooze you lose on MGs. If I took a payment which is not in my best interest, I would not send off the paperwork unless I had all the money. Whats stopping a buyer from trying to sue me if he put 50 percent down and then found out the form was approved and told a judge that was the agreed price. I have to sign the Form 4 to send it in and it would look like the buyer is correct to a judge. We live in a sue happy society and im not taking a risk. Its always first time buyers who bring this up. Once you buy a MG or two, youll understand get a bill of sale written in plain English? same as any other big purchase what's to stop a car seller from claiming that you owe him more money? what's to stop anyone from claiming anything? what's to stop a guy from walking into your house and claiming that you sold him the house for one penny? It's called a "bill of sale" and it has your signature on it and sometimes a notary seal. I know a guy who totally "understands". Way better than even the old pros like yourself do! He understands that he gave a seller $11,000 for a gun that didn't exist, and he understands that the seller took off with his money. I'll see if I can find the thread the guy wrote about it. The sun is setting on the "send your check to some random guy somewhere" days. I'm not saying that you cannot sell a gun using the old "just trust me" method, but the number of buyers willing to be that dumb with their money is going to decrease over time. There have been days where multiple scam ads came up on sturm. |
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Posted: 3/15/2017 1:53:00 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
get a bill of sale written in plain English? same as any other big purchase what's to stop a car seller from claiming that you owe him more money? what's to stop anyone from claiming anything? what's to stop a guy from walking into your house and claiming that you sold him the house for one penny? It's called a "bill of sale" and it has your signature on it and sometimes a notary seal. This. We have a specific sales agreement for machine guns sold under a payment plan. |
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Posted: 3/16/2017 4:59:27 PM EDT
[#38]
If you expect sellers to take payments, your not going to buy a MG.
Since the 1986 its been a sellers market. It will remain that way unless hughes is overturned. If you want a MG, you will pay 100% or the seller will sell it to the next person in line behind you and there is always someone behind you. Buyers dont bat a eye in sending in 30k+ for MGs. Ive seen a buyer send in over 50k for a particular MG. Again its not going to change. Where is your proof it will, cause I can show you pleanty its not going to change. Your example of a car is wrong, you need to compare it to rare cars because MGs are rare now. No one with an all matching hemi cuda convertible will take payments either. Its all up front or no car. Old cars like this and MGs are for the wealthy to play with these days and not for the typical gun nut. You gotta pay if you wanna play |
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Posted: 3/16/2017 5:08:32 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you expect sellers to take payments, your not going to buy a MG. Since the 1986 its been a sellers market. I myself never paid 100% upfront till about 10 years ago. I bought many guns from the local well-known DFW dealers (Jeff S, Nick T, Steave W [RIP]) with nothing down back (or maybe 100 at most) until 10 years ago. |
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Posted: 3/16/2017 5:11:01 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Again its not going to change. Where is your proof it will, cause I can show you pleanty its not going to change. |
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Posted: 3/16/2017 6:31:48 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you expect sellers to take payments, your not going to buy a MG. Since the 1986 its been a sellers market. It will remain that way unless hughes is overturned. If you want a MG, you will pay 100% or the seller will sell it to the next person in line behind you and there is always someone behind you. Buyers dont bat a eye in sending in 30k+ for MGs. Ive seen a buyer send in over 50k for a particular MG. Again its not going to change. Where is your proof it will, cause I can show you pleanty its not going to change. Your example of a car is wrong, you need to compare it to rare cars because MGs are rare now. No one with an all matching hemi cuda convertible will take payments either. Its all up front or no car. Old cars like this and MGs are for the wealthy to play with these days and not for the typical gun nut. You gotta pay if you wanna play |
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Posted: 3/16/2017 8:25:31 PM EDT
[#42]
<-- FFL/SOT
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Again its not going to change. Where is your proof it will, cause I can show you pleanty its not going to change. |
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Posted: 3/16/2017 9:39:27 PM EDT
[#43]
Hell, Ruben will take two checks - one dated a month later than the first check. And guess who gets to charge slightly higher prices on average? Holy shit, it's Ruben!
People clinging to the "it'll always be 100% up front forever and ever and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot" are idiots themselves. |
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Posted: 3/16/2017 9:53:03 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
People clinging to the "it'll always be 100% up front forever and ever and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot" are idiots themselves. |
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Posted: 3/16/2017 11:24:40 PM EDT
[#45]
My MG I bought from a guy on here the next state over. Called him up, went down that weekend. 100% funds up front. Paid slightly over market, too.
If, for some unforeseen reason, I decided to sell my pride and joy I really can't now afford to replace? 100% funds up front. |
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Posted: 3/17/2017 8:46:42 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I as a seller will change it. As jbntex pointed out, if down-payment means more in the long run, I would do it. The Art of The Deal and all that. Its a sellers market, sellers make the rules You would then come to forums to complain how unfair sellers are and that you dont have a MG. Oh wait you are doing that now |
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Posted: 3/17/2017 10:17:55 PM EDT
[#47]
Ok so let's say you have a contract and all that.
Buyer pays half, Form 4 goes through. Buyer doesn't have rest of money. How do you get the Form 4 back in your name? Is it really that easy to tell the ATF that the guy didn't finish making payments? |
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Posted: 3/18/2017 1:51:11 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You wouldnt buy one from me. Id sell the gun to the guy who pays 100 percent upfront. I would gladly buy from you, 100% upfront. All my life, guns or anything else, I love buying from people like you, who think you are in control, do not want to negotiate, and have no idea how much money you left on the table. As I get your gun for thousands less than I was willing to pay, I will be sure to stroke your ego and let you know how great deal maker you are. |
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Posted: 3/18/2017 2:02:02 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You would then come to forums to complain how unfair sellers are and that you dont have a MG. Oh wait you are doing that now |
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Posted: 3/18/2017 9:51:44 AM EDT
[#50]
I'll be honest on my first private party transfer on form 4, it was weird. This was for my RR AR15.
The guy was moving overseas and needed it done quite quickly. We did the form 4 and I mailed it off with his signature and my $200 check and finger prints. It was his time to move and it still was't approved, he left it at his parents house locked up.....and then he left. He moved to the Philippines and married a nice girl so he was moving there..... I had to get the approved form from his mail box forwarding address and then went to his parents place to pick up the ar15. Anyways.....it went weird but it came out ok. |
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