So I have been in the NFA game for a while, and while i dont have ALOT of NFA items (12 total, 8 suppressors, 4 sbrs) i am content, for now, where im at.  Im 35, have a normal job, normal bills.  That being said, I would really like to get into the machine gun part of the NFA.  Im just a normal person, no FFL, SOT, ect and no real desire to start 1 up.  And i know cost is extremely higher vs a suppressor. I always read that to get into the game to get a MAC/UZI, and while i like the price, those just arent something id really "want" to get.  Im a HK fan, and AR15 fan, and in a perfect world, id prefer either an HK sear or m16 lower (or DIAS).  is there a happy medium? or Should i just save my pennies and go for what i want?

This

You should get what you will enjoy the most... don't settle for something that you don't want just because they're cheap.
I would go for the M16... can't go wrong with that.

NFA is definitely a buy once, cry once game.

The very lowest end AR solution, a lightning link, is still 2.5 to 3x the cost of a MAC - figure $12k+ Even a no-name RR lower will be $15k+. DIAS will probably start at $25k, and they've gone for over $30k in the past few months (a member here paid $32k to lock one down, recently).

HK sear I can't imagine starting below $30k anymore - they're too popular and too sought after - maybe $25k if you get lucky or find a local deal.

Only you can decide if you can save or borrow enough to at least scrape into the LL pricing tier, or think you'll be able to jump up into the RR or even DIAS or HK sear price levels.

OP what is your budget?

The most bang for the buck is a Sendra or SGW era M16 receiver.
Next would be a M11/9. LOTS of options with these two.

You need to get what you really want, but also you can only buy what you can afford, so...

Rent some machine guns and see what really does it for you. You may be surprised.

my budget, right now, is about 5k.  but ive shot a MAC before, and while FA is cool, it just doesnt seem like something id WANT.

Wait and either get a HK sear or a M16 receiver. I sold my MAC and Uzi. Both were fun for a bit but nowhere near as much as the sear and rr.

Get a MAC because now there are may options.


Prices will go up again due to the 5.56 option coming soon for the MAC family.

Picking the right MG is a balance of what you really want and what you can actually afford. If youre to cost conscience you might end up with a subgun you really didn't want and you never shoot. If youre to focused on your dream gun and forget reality you might end up with some crazy belt-fed worth as much as your house and not be able to pay for your kids college.

When first started looking I put together everything I had saved up and was disappointment to realize I couldnt afford a M16. I started looking at cheaper subguns like the Mac and Sten but was not excited. With the advice from everyone here I opted to wait, and instead save up some money and buy what I really wanted. After months of saving and searching the internet (I checked every website listed below, everyday multiple times a day for several months) I finally snagged a Oly Arms M16.

I would recommend a Non-colt RR, they are a fraction of the price of a Colt RR or RDIAS yet do the exact same thing.  
A RLL is a cheaper but I never liked that you had to use the SP1 BCG and that you couldn't use the Geissele or other drop in Triggers.

M16 Market Data
Transferable M16 machine guns and estimated market values:
RLL $13-16k
RDIAS $30-35k
RR Non-Colt Cast AR15 Conversion $17-19k
RR Non-Colt AR15 Conversion $18-20k
RR Colt AR15 SP1 Conversion $18-20k
RR Colt AR15 614 $23-25k
RR Colt M16 $25-30k
RR Colt M16A1 $25-30k
RR Colt M16A2 $30-35k
RR Colt M16A2 Commando $35-40k (Marked "Auto" instead of "Burst")

In theory the HK Sear gives you the most bang for your buck if you plan to own dozens of MGs. But at a $35k+ its a hard pill to swallow, not to mention many of the semi-auto host rifles run in the $5k+ or as high as $10-15k for belt-fed options. There are transferable MGs out there that are cheaper than some of the HK host guns. A Sear + a couple host rifles + optics, lights, lasers, bipods, extra mags, spare parts, etc... and youre looking at probably $40-50k+ to get started with the HK family. If you already have a large collection of AR15s the only thing you will need is a RR or RLL, probably less than half of the price of going with the HK. Not to mention the AR15 has the largest availability of after market parts of any gun out there. Also, part of the draw of a HK Sear is having multiple MGs. The same can be done with a RLL and even with a RR you can just swap uppers, I usually take a couple uppers with me when I go shooting as the barrels heat up quick and its nice to just push two pins, and slap on a new upper and you're back in business.


List of HK firearms.

Sub Machine Gun
HK MP5(K/RS/SD) (9mm/10mm/40 cal)

Battle Rifle
HK 11(K) (7.62x51mm)
HK 13(K) (5.56mm)
HK 51(K) (7.62x51mm)
HK 91 (7.62x51mm)
HK 33(K) (5.56mm)
HK 43 (5.56mm)
HK 53(K) (5.56mm)
HK 93(K) (5.56mm)
HK 52 (7.62x39mm)
HK 32 (7.62x39mm)
HK 41 (7.62x51mm)
HK G3 (Various Models) (7.62x51mm)

Belt Fed
HK 21(E/K) (7.62x51mm)
HK 22(E/K)(7.62x39mm)
HK 23(E/K) (5.56mm)
HK 51B (7.62x51mm)


Websites to watch for good deals on machine guns:
http://www.sturmgewehr.com
http://www.atfmachinegun.com
http://www.autoweapons.com
http://www.impactguns.com
http://www.subguns.com
http://www.onlythebestfirearms.com
http://www.davidspiwak.com
http://dealernfa.com
http://www.gunbroker.com
http://www.nfasales.com
http://mtmmfg.com
http://www.classiiidealers.com/
http://www.westernfirearms.com/
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/class-iii-full-auto/
http://www.urban-armory.com/
http://www.ar15.com/forums/f_7/118_NFA_Firearms_andamp__Parts.html

Website that tracks machine gun values:
http://www.machinegunpriceguide.com/

Thank you for all that information, i will look into it all.

Of course on top of the cost of the MG, you now have spare parts, ammo and ammo. Freaking "hobby" will drain ya! Or just build yourself a time machine an go back to the late 80's. My first Fleming sear(s) (10 of them) were $375.00 each. Down to two now but the versatility of the sear is, well from my SP-89 to my 51k to my MM21e/23e to my C93 to my HK91, it just keeps going on. Now being into MG's since 1990, I'm starting to find that it might be time to slow down, and then, someone comes out with an great idea. I have also read that a 5.56 conversion is in the works for the MAC series weapons, so maybe save a little longer and see what comes out.

Good luck and keep us posted on your decision...

You don't need much in the way of spare parts.

I have 40+ UZI magazines, I've used three or four.

I bought an extra top cover to mount a red dot on.

Changed the recoil spring.

that's about it


most of these military smgs are built to be very heavy duty, they don't wear out with occasional trips to the range.

it's just like buying a garand.  you'll go broke buying ammo before you can wear it out.

There already was a 5.56 (and 7.62x39 with AK mags) conversion for the MAC series weapons several years ago.  The Alliance Armament (AA) SABRE.  It was a commercial failure.  What is happening now is a couple of revamp projects/efforts.  AA gave away (posted on the internet) all their drawings.  At least one guy is making a somewhat modified one for himself in 7.62x39 with AK mags; and Richard Lage is looking into a design similar to the AA SABRE that uses more standard M16 parts based on what another guy has done.  Lots of discussion on UziTalk in the MAC Forum.

Many of us here are just normal guys as well and own one, several, or many many machine guns.  No need to be a millionaire.

Save up, buy what you want, and have fun with whatever you decide!  Good luck!

I'm kinda "meh" about the other "Frankensteinian" rifle-caliber MAC conversions, but that MAC to RPD conversion looks B@D @$$!!!

If the lower MAC can be contoured to look like the BREN lower..than nobody can tell the difference really.

I think I now have too many AR-15 SBRs (four) to every go to owning an M-16.  I would feel dumb for accumulating too many SBRs I would rarely use again.

Plus, I am a bit of perfectionist and using an Oly for every range trip and leaving a Colt factory SBR at home would make me sad.  A DIAS would be awesome, but I passed on one for $20 a couple years ago and I'm not going to pay $30k plus for one.

Assuming you can't start shopping $20k for a M16 tomorrow, my advice is buy an M11/9.  The prices seem to have dipped in the low 6s recently.   They start saving the remainder for your M16.

At least you will have a partial hedge against rising M16 prices and then you can sell your M11/9 to complete the remainder of funds you need for your M11/9.

Don't be the guy that saves $20k in 3-5 years to find out M16s are now $30k and that M11/9 is now $12k.   You literally could have had a free M11/9.

And maybe you find out the M11/9 is all you need.  Or you decide to keep it and buy the M16 too.

Well while the HK sear and RDIAS are the most flexible machine guns you can get, they aren't exactly cheap. Probably going around $20-30K or more for one. 

But hey you can buy a whole collection of HK firearms and you'll essentially have a bunch of machine guns with one registered sear. Of course the cost of those firearms isn't exactly cheap either.

While the M16 family you can just swap out the uppers for different calibers and parts are much cheaper.

But hey I think a MAC-10 is still a very fun machine fun for a lot cheaper. Still gotta start somewhere right. I think these go for around $6K now. Considered every level for machine guns. 

OP I'm the same boat as you and I've decided on the FNC,  but I'm still saving for one.

I do waiver back and forth to a 1919 belt fed after shooting a post sample M60 and M240 though. There are a good many M1919s out there for $15-20k and they look to be a good bit of fun.  Ideally I'd like to have an M60, but I don't have that kind of money for what amounts to a toy.

Yeah there was a M60 that was being sold at a local gun range for $30k. As badly as I wanted it I just couldn't find a way to justify spending close to $40k by time I converted it to a E6, bought optics, lights, lasers, ammo, paid taxes, tax stamps, etc...

I got in in 1999. I sweat and felt sick writing the checks for my MGs, but once they were approved, I never looked back.

Save up for what you want.

An M16 of some sort will do you well. For a Colt M16 or AR15 614, $22-25K will get you one if you look around. There's an M16 on GB for $26k.

M16 or M16a1 prices have been pretty stable for a while, but the things go up in spurts.

An HK sear was $12k just a few years ago, about the same as an M16, then up they went, about $30,000 now.

something to consider; at the rate MG's are appreciating, if you arent saving fast to buy quick, a RR/RDIAS or a HK pack could outrun your saving ability.
ie, if you're only putting aside $6k a year (which is $500 a month for a toy), then you will not be purchasing for a long time, while the expense keeps getting higher and higher.  in the past 10 years since I've been paying attention to NFA, prices have doubled/tripled on some items.
no judgement, but unless you can put together $20,000 before 2017 is over, you will be paying catch up for a while (plus 9 month wait on stamp) as the prices keep going up.

I vote mac.  I bought an m11/9 about 5 years ago.  its my only MG.  with the lage upper I can run it at least 3 different speeds (different bolts) and it has a reliable 22 caliber kit for it.  there's also the max31 upper which will allow for drums and lage is presently working on a 556 upper conversion for it (AA's sabre was meh and not produced anymore).

another rifle to consider is the ac556, due to present price range.  I'd like to have one and that may be my next MG purchase (but I like the mini14 platform anyways).

sure, I'd like to have a RR or a RDIAS, but regular dude with different toys/hobbies, a wife with hobbies, and three kids with camp/hobbies.....a $25,000 MG isnt real high up the toy list.

Thank you all gain for the information.  I think right now im still stuck at waiting for either the HK sear or m16 lower.  It is the more expensive option, but between the ar's and hks I have, in the long run i feel this would be the better choice, even if i have to keep saving up.

Don't forget you can always get a cheaper gun(Mac, etc.) now as an investment.  In a year or two that will have increased in value as the m16/hk will have too.  Then sell the cheaper gun and make the out of pocket expense at the time of the major gun purchase less shocking

Oh and during that time you can enjoy a fun gun!

Agreed. When the Lage 5.56 upper comes out, the next round of buyers for this platform will be folks that want a lower cost centerfire rifle option. The M11/9 will go solidly to $10-12K overnight.

So go to every gun club within driving distance to you.  Attend their monthly meeting.  Before the meeting see if there is a board member willing to help you.  Usually at the end of the meeting there would be a call for new business.  Stand up and introduce yourself.  Tell the membership that you are looking for and ask if anyone knows of anyone who has one that might sell to someone that really wants one, please have them contact you through that board member.  Keep coming back.  You might not find a HK sear for $395, but you never know what you might find.

Why is the M16 so versatile?  Because the lower is the registered part.  So is the MAC style RR.  It wasn't until the RR got to the point that a slow fire upper was cost effective did the slow fire concept come to the MAC style RRs.  When a MAC style RR was a few hundred dollars who is going to pay a few hundred dollars for a slow fire system?  Now that MAC style RRs values have climbed to $6,000-$7,000, a rifle caliber upper at $1,500 to $2,500 is viable.  If you don't want a MAC style RR, oh well.  I think most of them have the potential to be a match winning subgun with a Lage upper or CF(W) tungsten bolt.  With a rifle caliber upper based on the AR platform, that upper might have any caliber the AR could have.

There is some good advice here, specially about what it would take to purchase.  To me, $500 a month is a bare minimum.  As a DIAS, Fleming HK sear, M11/NINE, and M10 owner, I am familiar.  It is so easy to burn through several thousand rounds in an afternoon, especially once a belt feed option is acquired.  Once the initial purchase is made, the resource allocation can drop.  But at $10 a mag dump that lasts less than two seconds, it'll need plenty of ammo.  There is also additional hardware costs.  Pound several thousand rounds though an upper by shooting mag after mag and destroy it.  Have several uppers that you can rotate to cool, and they will last a very long time.  But they need to be purchased.  

It seems to me OP, you either need to step up money wise to buy what you really want.  Or figure out a way to be happy with what you can afford.  I sold most all of my semi auto collection to gather enough funds to buy my first machinegun, a Colt M16 RR sold to me by a friend way below market value.  Best decision I ever made.  It was hard to sell most all of my collection.  If you want what you say you want, it'll take some very tough choices.  Good luck with your search.

Scott

Perhaps another option is find somebody willing to do half up front and half upon approval?

It might cost you more and probably most viable with an in state purchase but with the time of approvals it allows you to save a bit while locking in the price.

Why is this discussion focusing so much on paying up front?

It's not really the concern that buyers have.

The problem is that:

1.) Some of the ads being run for machine guns are a pure scam.  The guns don't even exist.  You send your check to some guy somewhere, he disappears with your money.

2.) You want assurance that the transfer is going to actually be completed if you buy from a legitimate seller, even if the seller drops dead while you're waiting for the transfer.  You don't want his family trying to keep the gun and your money.  Or some other messed up situation like that.


For No.1, you have to somehow verify that the seller is a legitimate person and that the gun exists and is legally in the NFA registry.

If you just send a $25,000 check to some stranger on the basis of some crappy little ad in sturm or gunbroker, you're an idiot.

You have to verify the sale somehow.  Go see the seller and the gun, or some other method to verify the deal.

The last time this topic came up, some of the guys on here said they wouldn't go out of their way to verify the deal if they were selling.  They wouldn't even make a 60 second phone video of the gun.   Which is an absolutely ridiculous attitude.

As the prices of these guns go up, the number of people who are dumb enough to trust some unknown stranger with their money is going to get smaller and smaller.

When people buy expensive jewelry by mail, they have a escrow company make the transfer so nobody gets burned.  

If I won a gunbroker auction and the seller refused to verify the deal, I wouldn't send payment.   It would be crazy to do it.  Sometimes there are 5 scam ads a day on sturm.  

The ideal thing is to see the gun in person and meet the seller in person.  Verify that gun and the seller actually exist and that the seller is a legitimate guy with a house and car and job.


For No. 2, the way to address that problem is to get a bill of sale and a receipt.

Have the seller sign a bill of sale stating that the gun is paid for in full and that he agrees to turn the gun over to you immediately upon approval of the transfer of the gun.

And if the transfer is not approved, that he will return the entire sum of money to you.

Something like that.


Nobody is asking the seller to provide a blood sample, it's just a reasonable assurance that you're not dealing with a scam artist.

If I ever sell an MG on gunbroker and the winning bidder wants to meet up and pay in person, why wouldn't I say OK?

Or why not take a video of the gun?

Or why not take the gun to a local gun dealer so the dealer can verify the gun for the buyer?

You can see that buyers are already so paranoid about being burned that they're willing to spend an extra 15% to deal with a big-name brick and mortar dealer.

And they should be.

If the buyer was insisting on doing a partial payment up front, you could work that to your advantage.

Suppose the buyer agrees to pay 25% up front and the rest upon transfer.

You could have him sign a bill of sale stating that the buyer has 30 days to make full payment after he is officially notified that the transfer has been approved by ATF.  Otherwise, he forfeits the 25% and you get to re-sell the gun.

Work it like that.   The buyer doesn't make full payment, you get to keep his money.

This doesn't have to be a one-sided deal, nobody needs to take any risk at all or be put to any real inconvenience.

here's another idea:

The seller agrees to pay 25% up front.

You transfer the gun to a local dealer.  The dealer holds a certified check for the remaining 75% until the gun is handed to him.

You hand the dealer the gun, he hands you the check for 75%.

Easy peasy lemon squeezy.



Here's another consideration:

Suppose you make full payment for the gun and the seller holds it in his gun safe until the transfer goes through.

In the meantime, the gun is stolen.  

You own the gun.  But it's not officially in your name because the transfer is incomplete.

Do you have insurance?   Will the insurance pay for a gun that's stolen from someone else's house?


These are not really a legitimate concern when you're buying a $500 revolver off gunbroker.  But when you're buying a $30,000 MP5 they are.

Here my aspect from probably a not so popular one. Buy a mac and call it a day. Are machineguns cool? Sure. But you're going to get bored with it. A mac fills all that there's can be had and you can not have a $30k safe occupier/door stop/dust collector.

M11/9 is the best budget MG out there.

Agreed. Love my m11/9. I never really considered even getting an MG until I got a great deal locally on mine. M11/9 has enough options to get my MG fill when I want it without having a 30K tied up in something I only use occasionally. That being said Im really looking at getting an M10/45 to go with it because I love the simplicity and cool factor of the the Mac series but those are 8k now most places. 8k buys a lot of other ammo, training, gear, safes etc.

People write this all the time but the marketplace doesn't back it up

Guys don't pay $25,000 for boringness.

I'm absolutely not an expert on NFA items, but did run into an older guy once who sold FA guns. I was at the range and he was in the bay next to me dialing one in for a customer. For the life of me I can't remember the model, but he had quite a few of them for sale. Apparently he had come across some new "old" stock and bought up every single one.

What I do remember is the price was around $5,500. I'm fairly certain he's got some available, and could get his info from the guys that run the range; as they've got one of his sale flyers hanging up on their message board.

Sorry I don't recall what model they are, but I'll be happy to try and gather some more info if anyone was interested. Quickly searching through pictures online, and my best guess is that they're MK760s.  Anyone who knows this particular model think a price of just under 6k sounds right?

$6k today for a transferrable MK760 is probably a bargain. - But all, as always, depends on a number of factors.

This thread needs more Lage Macs

Notice I said going to get. Not that they are immediately. Every machine gun I've bought I've been excited about. Then after a year or so it gets shot maybe once a year and maybe one mag or belt and generally not by me.

For an OP that clearly doesn't have a large amount of disposable income and having to nickle and dime his life for however long it's going to take him to save to buy one gun. My advice is buy the mac and use the rest of his money for daily life happiness.

MGs arent for everyone, my dad owned a Thompson years ago, said he had it for a few years and got bored with it. He has always prefered bolt action precision shooting, rapid fire "tactical" or military grade firearms are not his thing.

Also, some people switch hobbies frequently. if thats their personality then yes they might get bored of a MG (or firearms in general) very quickly, thats not a result of a MG or how it functions.

But for most people, if they have been shooting for years and still are just as interested in firearms as they ever were when they started than owning a MG wont get boring. In fact I hear more MG/NFA owners complaining that once they get into title II firearms its hard to find title I firearms appealing. I used to walk into a gunshop and drool over all of the AR15s, Now that wall of AR15s is boring.

I just went to the range the other day with my wife to freshen up on her CCW skills and realized thats the first time ive been to the range in years that I didnt bring my M16 with me. And the only reason I didnt was because we were in a hurry and I only had time to grab her gun and a box of ammo as we ran out the door.

Like you said, its something to be aware of, and i would never recommend a new MG owner start out with some rare $100,000 MG, but something like a MAC or a M16 to test your interest is within reason. Plus you can always cash out and get your money back, maybe even make a profit if you held onto it for awhile.

I am with David. For example, I have not shot my Glock 18C in over a year.

MGs are just one of my hobbies. They do not consume all my focus.

Starting next week the guns will be silent as I prepare the 4x4 for an off road trip to Big Bend.

Then in April the glock17 gets a workout for a few weeks as I prep for some upcoming matches.

And so it goes.

I'll come warm that Glock 18 up for you right now.

My MG is still awaiting transfer, but I've shot machine guns before and I've LOVED it every single time. Even if I shoot my Sten three times a year for the rest of my life, I've gotten my money's worth.

Thanks. I spent some time on YouTube today and the cyclical rate seems a bit high compared to what the guy at the range had. In the comments section of one video someone compared it to a Swedish K. I went and looked that model up, and the cyclical rate seems much closer to what I remember from the range. So, I'm now 50/50 on betting either the MK760 or a Swedish K. If it is the latter, he definitely changed the grip out; as it was not made of wood like most shown online.

I'm just a poor guy too and I really have fallen in love with my M-11/9.

I initially wanted a M-16 but couldn't afford it. Ended up with the M11.

Basically ended up with one configuration I shoot all the time. Practical Solutions side cocking upper with a ILWT 3-Lug barrel, SiCo Octane and either the CF-W bolt or a Jacked standard bolt.

Not only is it a blast to shoot, loading for it is easy and I can blast all day for $100. There is a lot to be said for the cost of shooting the damn thing. I wish I had been smart when I was a young pup and bought a few pallets of the cheap stuff.


ETA - When the Lage M-11/15 upper makes it to market you better believe prices are going to rise significantly. My guess is doubling in two years.

I used to have a MAC10 in 9mm with the UZI grip put on it.

I loved that gun.

It was built like a tank and it was very accurate.   Shooting it semi-auto, it would print 2" groups at 25 yards.


If that's all you can afford, go for it.  They're great.

Full auto is just another kind of target practice.

handgun shooting, rifle shooting, shotgun shooting, and machine gun shooting are all different but they all involve aiming at a target and trying to hit it.

sometimes guys will say full auto is boring, "you'll be bored after the 5th mag dump."

well, no kidding.  You'd get bored with shutting your eyes and firing a pistol into the air too.


Any gun you own, sooner or later you're going to start trying to hit targets with it.  I even made a study of trying hit stuff with my S&W snubby, if I held it real tight I could pass the paper plate test at 20 yards with it.

machine gun target shooting consists of sending a little spray of bullets instead of just one.  A shotgun that shoots in series instead of parallel.

It's fun.

Not to constantly hype Thompsons, but you can hold the Thompson against your nutsack and still wipe out bottles and paper plates at 50 yards with it. You have to try to not be accurate with it.  It's not a "bullet hose" like the gun shop bubbas say.  


The allure of MG ownership does go beyond mere shooting, though.

Some people are always going to want to own the biggest and baddest thing, the top of the food chain.

If you're a WWII gun collector, you can buy USGI M1 Carbines, Garands, 1911s, maybe a S&W m1917 and a 03A3.  But if you own a WWII Thompson, you have bragging rights.

I do like a Tommy gun. If someone wants to go shoot machine guns I'll take that one just because I can dump it in the parts washer and have it clean in no time.  If I clean it all.