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Posted: 2/27/2017 1:29:02 PM EDT
[#1]
Two of my friends have registered bolt guns and they have both had problems running.
One of them got it ironed out by making his own custom buffer and made his own recoil spring. He also did some work to the barrel and now it runs fast, but well. The other has a Model A with bolt and I had to modify a buffer for it because the cyclic rate was very fast and the bolt was closing on partially ejected brass. Also the bolts can break (not easily, mind you) but are repairable. Check uzitalk.com to see how people have repaired their bolts. But there is a major pro: You can swap between host guns. Cons: Barrel restrictor rings suck Surplus trigger groups wont fit on semi hosts Cant run surplus bolts (obviously) According to BWE Firearms, there are a lot of registered bolts out there that don't run worth a damn (shoot before you buy) No caliber converting to .22lr, .45, 10mm, etc. To me personally the receiver guns are a much better option even when you consider the cost difference. Can you get a bolt gun to work well and do what you want it to? Yes, absolutely, but you are a bit limited and sending expensive small parts away for repair is nerve-racking. Have you considered other guns within your budget? |
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Posted: 2/27/2017 1:43:52 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Two of my friends have registered bolt guns and they have both had problems running. One of them got it ironed out by making his own custom buffer and made his own recoil spring. He also did some work to the barrel and now it runs fast, but well. The other has a Model A with bolt and I had to modify a buffer for it because the cyclic rate was very fast and the bolt was closing on partially ejected brass. Also the bolts can break (not easily, mind you) but are repairable. Check uzitalk.com to see how people have repaired their bolts. But there is a major pro: You can swap between host guns. Cons: Barrel restrictor rings suck Surplus trigger groups wont fit on semi hosts Cant run surplus bolts (obviously) According to BWE Firearms, there are a lot of registered bolts out there that don't run worth a damn (shoot before you buy) No caliber converting to .22lr, .45, 10mm, etc. To me personally the receiver guns are a much better option even when you consider the cost difference. Can you get a bolt gun to work well and do what you want it to? Yes, absolutely, but you are a bit limited and sending expensive small parts away for repair is nerve-racking. Have you considered other guns within your budget? I'm open to just about anything in budget except for a Reising or a MAC those 2 just don't do it for me 
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Posted: 2/27/2017 1:59:42 PM EDT
[#3]
As much as people don't like to hear it, the MAC is a damn good option these days. With the slowfire uppers it turns them into viable SMGs rather than bullet hoses suitable only for combat in a phone booth:
Also there is a 7.62x39 AK upper in the works: 
But I understand being against the mac and wanting a turn-key gun. In that case I like to sing the praises of the M2 carbine, the Stemples, MK760s, Stens, and Sterlings (if you are lucky, but most likely will be a stenling). That said, are you dead set on a hand-held gun or would you also be interested in a big-boy rig? You can find Maxims for 10k: http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/index.cgi?db=nfafirearms&website=&language=&session_key=&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=long&db_id=28286&query=retrieval You can also get Hotchkiss Portatives, Hotchkiss 1914s, Japanese Type 99s, Chauchats, and many of the older guns for within your budget. That said, 99% of people are going to want a more portable gun! |
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Posted: 2/27/2017 2:39:22 PM EDT
[#4]
RR Uzis can be found for $13-15k right now, not much more than a registered bolt.
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Posted: 2/27/2017 4:44:24 PM EDT
[#5]
If you want a Thompson, save the money for a Thompson.
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Posted: 2/27/2017 8:21:59 PM EDT
[#6]
What MGs have YOU shot?
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Posted: 2/28/2017 12:47:33 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What MGs have YOU shot? A Thompson , mp40 , mp5 , m16a4 , 249, 240 , and m2hb. The first 3 as rentals And the others while in the Marines. To be honest the mp40 was by far the most controllable for me ( except a 240 or m2 on a tripod but that's cheating ) I just want something fun ( and portable ) with a little history to it. |
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Posted: 2/28/2017 1:12:23 AM EDT
[#8]
I have a bolt gun, and the previous host was a nodak spud reciever, and I am testing it this weekend in an IMI model B import i picked up.
So far: Both the nodak and the IMI have to be clearanced to allow the sears to go up high enough (dremel did the job fine, don't judge me) The IMI required me to turn down a 9mm to 8mm adapter sleeve to stake in the lower receiver lug, the nodak comes ready to use SMG 8mm grip pin. To buy the part is like 9-10 bucks, so not a big deal. Runs 100% in my nodak, literally dropped it in (after some minor dremeling mentioned above), checked the topcover gap and away we went. ETA: Actually, I remembered I did have to replace the 30 year old extractor with a new F/A one, picked up a 3 pack for like ~30 bucks, that was it. Barrels is really a non-issue. I don't switch barrels much, but keeping my eye out I've picked up several semi profile spare 10.5" barrels @~$75 each, but really only use one shortened and cut one, so chopping a 16" was a non-issue. I can't use a 22 kit in F/A, but let me tell you, I have a semi kit and it SSSSSSUUUUCCCCCKKKKKSSSSSSS. The Lage M11/22 kits run 10 times better in FA than the one I have in semi. That being said, the Lage goodies turn the M11 into a fine shooting gun. The K version below (I've had the fullsize also) is smooth and fast shooting compared to the slower chug of the UZI, and it is lighter as well. 22 kit runs really well with a good batch of ammo  Attached File |
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Posted: 2/28/2017 8:07:33 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A Thompson , mp40 , mp5 , m16a4 , 249, 240 , and m2hb. The first 3 as rentals And the others while in the Marines. To be honest the mp40 was by far the most controllable for me ( except a 240 or m2 on a tripod but that's cheating ) I just want something fun ( and portable ) with a little history to it. |
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Posted: 2/28/2017 8:40:40 AM EDT
[#10]
There's a 5.56 upper coming for the M11/9 that will be made with AR15 parts and use AR mags. Already a waiting list at Lage.
You can still find them for 5-8k but when this upper comes out, expect the price to go up over 10k. Don't write off an M11, they're extremely reliable and versatile guns with a huge aftermarket. |
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Posted: 2/28/2017 10:29:53 AM EDT
[#11]
FWIW you can pick up a RLL for $13-15k
Also, the Mac serious of firearms with the Lage Upper is pretty top notch, hence the reason prices have sky rocketed on that firearm. I didn't want one for my first MG but as a second MG it would be a lot of fun. |
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Posted: 2/28/2017 11:02:45 AM EDT
[#12]
The UZI is an awesome firearm and an excellent choice for someone looking to own an NFA MG.
I would try to find a deal on a registered receiver if I was you. If you really want a Thompson, then beg, borrow and steal enough get yourself a WWII 1928A1 or M1A1. They are going for around $23 to $27 now. This is a real good time to buy, prices are in a flat line. It will sting like a bitch when you write that check, but when they're selling for $35k, you'll be happy. The nice thing about buying these guns is that it's money in the bank. Buying an antique or collectable with a solid collector market is not like buying a new car, there's no depreciation in value. When I first got interested in NFA, everyone said that "prices are absurd, they are in a bubble and due to pop soon." That was when a NIB Colt M16 was $13,000 and a NIB UZI was $6500. In 2011, NIB MAC10s and FNC sears were selling for less than $3000. Boy, that bubble sure popped, didn't it? |
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Posted: 2/28/2017 11:17:29 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The UZI is an awesome firearm and an excellent choice for someone looking to own an NFA MG. I would try to find a deal on a registered receiver if I was you. If you really want a Thompson, then beg, borrow and steal enough get yourself a WWII 1928A1 or M1A1. They are going for around $23 to $27 now. This is a real good time to buy, prices are in a flat line. Ive seen West Hurley Thompsons go in the Teens, if you could find one that was refurbished it might be something to consider. Im not a expert on thompsons though. |
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Posted: 2/28/2017 11:35:19 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ive seen West Hurley Thompsons go in the Teens, if you could find one that was refurbished it might be something to consider. Im not a expert on thompsons though. I have a lot of experience with Thompsons and I know the ins and outs pretty well. You will notice that there is always a big pile of shiny, pretty looking west hurleys for sale and hardly any pre-45 Thompsons for sale. All of the "real" Thompsons were made pre-1945. Those are the ones that the collectors drool over and they are excellent quality mil-spec guns. The early Colts are made like a fine sporting arm. In the 1970s, someone acquired the rights to the Thompson logo and had a batch of 3,000 new Thompson 1928s and M1A1s made. These guns are ALL marked West Hurley, NY. They were reverse-engineered by small machine shops and the receivers often have dimensional problems. There is a gunsmith who specializes in re-machining the receivers, but there is a multi-year waiting list. "Westy" owners often replace parts with USGI and get them running OK. Don't buy one unless you see it run and be aware that they are considered "shooters". Collectors don't GAF about them. Thompsons are good running guns, if a Thompson jams at all it means there is a problem. or bad magazines. Personally, I think they are a bad value. They are pretty looking guns but they are overpriced relative to the USGI WWII guns. There are also rewelds out there. Avoid. And there are rewats. The quality of the rewats ranges from excellent to awful. Your best Thompson value if to buy a WWII 1928A1 or M1 or M1A1. Don't be afraid to buy one of the WWII M1 and M1A1 models. They are actually the mainstay of the WWII production and they are an awesome weapon. Excellent engineering and build quality. Very accurate and reliable, easy to shoot well. Built like a tank. |
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Posted: 2/28/2017 11:49:23 AM EDT
[#15]
I have two bolt guns and the both run like raped apes. One is a full size IMI and the other is a Micro IMI pistol conversion. I've had them for around 10 years each without any issues. I love UZI's and also have a semi I bought at about the same time. I did add a small pad to the rear of the receiver in the area the bolt retracts into. This seems to have upped the cycle rate to around 1200rpm or so on the full size with Wolf 115gr. rounds. The mini runs at around 1800rpm on the same ammo.
I also have Thompson West Hurley that runs perfectly. I guess I 'm just a lucky guy, eh? |
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Posted: 2/28/2017 12:39:28 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a lot of experience with Thompsons and I know the ins and outs pretty well. You will notice that there is always a big pile of shiny, pretty looking west hurleys for sale and hardly any pre-45 Thompsons for sale. All of the "real" Thompsons were made pre-1945. Those are the ones that the collectors drool over and they are excellent quality mil-spec guns. The early Colts are made like a fine sporting arm. In the 1970s, someone acquired the rights to the Thompson logo and had a batch of 3,000 new Thompson 1928s and M1A1s made. These guns are ALL marked West Hurley, NY. They were reverse-engineered by small machine shops and the receivers often have dimensional problems. There is a gunsmith who specializes in re-machining the receivers, but there is a multi-year waiting list. "Westy" owners often replace parts with USGI and get them running OK. Don't buy one unless you see it run and be aware that they are considered "shooters". Collectors don't GAF about them. Thompsons are good running guns, if a Thompson jams at all it means there is a problem. or bad magazines. Personally, I think they are a bad value. They are pretty looking guns but they are overpriced relative to the USGI WWII guns. There are also rewelds out there. Avoid. And there are rewats. The quality of the rewats ranges from excellent to awful. Your best Thompson value if to buy a WWII 1928A1 or M1 or M1A1. Don't be afraid to buy one of the WWII M1 and M1A1 models. They are actually the mainstay of the WWII production and they are an awesome weapon. Excellent engineering and build quality. Very accurate and reliable, easy to shoot well. Built like a tank. I agree 100% with your assessment. When I bought my Thompson I could not have been more excited. It is however probably my least favorite MG to shoot. While it runs like an absolute top (M1A1) the handling is outright bizarre and the aggressive downward slope of the stock feels very unnatural. The gun is also heavy as hell (not that it matters for a civilian hobbyist) and when I got it I had to put in a new recoil spring and magazine springs to get it up to spec (the springs were 75 years old so this was to be expected). That said, the little bastard now spits out 45acp with the rhythmic uniformity of a sewing machine and is surprisingly accurate for an open bolt gun. Parts are also not too hard to find, which is great (although I don't expect much to wear out). |
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Posted: 2/28/2017 3:52:14 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree 100% with your assessment. When I bought my Thompson I could not have been more excited. It is however probably my least favorite MG to shoot. While it runs like an absolute top (M1A1) the handling is outright bizarre and the aggressive downward slope of the stock feels very unnatural. The gun is also heavy as hell (not that it matters for a civilian hobbyist) and when I got it I had to put in a new recoil spring and magazine springs to get it up to spec (the springs were 75 years old so this was to be expected). That said, the little bastard now spits out 45acp with the rhythmic uniformity of a sewing machine and is surprisingly accurate for an open bolt gun. Parts are also not too hard to find, which is great (although I don't expect much to wear out). I never had this handling problem with Thompsons. It's just a short rifle with a pistol grip. It shoulders and points very naturally for me. If fact, I was a little surprised the first time I shot it how easy it was to hit targets with it. |
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Posted: 3/1/2017 12:03:22 AM EDT
[#18]
The Lage accessorized M11/9 is an excellent SMG. I would definitely choose it over a bolt gun UZI. But that's just me.
You need to buy what excites you. |
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Posted: 3/1/2017 8:51:11 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
I figure that with MG prices raising pretty steadily it will at least be a placeholder till I get the rest of the cash togeather to get a Thompson. I take this to mean you are looking for somewhere to park your money until you have enough for the Thompson. Meaning you plan to sell the Uzi bolt when it's time to buy the Thompson. Correct? And being able to shoot your investment in the interim is nice too. Here's something to consider: the RR Uzi I bought 10 years ago has roughly doubled in price. The M11/9 I bought 15 years ago has increased by a factor of 10! I expect the meteoric rise in M11 pricing has to do with with the flexibility that has been developed for the system. With a Lage-produced rifle-caliber upper on the horizon, I predict the M11 will continue to climb in price at a faster rate than most other MGs. Had all of the current options been available earlier, I may never have bought the Uzi. Just something to consider. |
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Posted: 3/1/2017 10:52:49 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I take this to mean you are looking for somewhere to park your money until you have enough for the Thompson. Meaning you plan to sell the Uzi bolt when it's time to buy the Thompson. Correct? And being able to shoot your investment in the interim is nice too. Here's something to consider: the RR Uzi I bought 10 years ago has roughly doubled in price. The M11/9 I bought 15 years ago has increased by a factor of 10! I expect the meteoric rise in M11 pricing has to do with with the flexibility that has been developed for the system. With a Lage-produced rifle-caliber upper on the horizon, I predict the M11 will continue to climb in price at a faster rate than most other MGs. Had all of the current options been available earlier, I may never have bought the Uzi. Just something to consider. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I figure that with MG prices raising pretty steadily it will at least be a placeholder till I get the rest of the cash togeather to get a Thompson. I take this to mean you are looking for somewhere to park your money until you have enough for the Thompson. Meaning you plan to sell the Uzi bolt when it's time to buy the Thompson. Correct? And being able to shoot your investment in the interim is nice too. Here's something to consider: the RR Uzi I bought 10 years ago has roughly doubled in price. The M11/9 I bought 15 years ago has increased by a factor of 10! I expect the meteoric rise in M11 pricing has to do with with the flexibility that has been developed for the system. With a Lage-produced rifle-caliber upper on the horizon, I predict the M11 will continue to climb in price at a faster rate than most other MGs. Had all of the current options been available earlier, I may never have bought the Uzi. Just something to consider. I think you are right. Looking at it as an "investment" to park your money in until you have the coin to buy a Tommy gun, the M11 has the greatest potential and lowest entry fee. When I started looking at MGs the M11 could be had NIB for 1300 and I thought about buying three of them on a budget of 3k. One as a shooter, one to sell a couple years down the road and one to keep NIB as a long term investment. I dilly-dallied and a couple years later low and behold an M11 was now 2700 bucks so I only bought one. I could kick myself now. |
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Posted: 3/1/2017 12:14:49 PM EDT
[#21]
Well, after reading this thread I'm going to pony up a couple more grand and get a RR Uzi. I'll jest sell a few other guns and work some more overtime. Thanks
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Posted: 3/1/2017 12:20:47 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I started looking at MGs the M11 could be had NIB for 1300 and I thought about buying three of them on a budget of 3k. One as a shooter, one to sell a couple years down the road and one to keep NIB as a long term investment. I dilly-dallied and a couple years later low and behold an M11 was now 2700 bucks so I only bought one. Don't feel bad. I bought a "shooter" M11/9 for $700, and a nice one for $1300. A couple years later, I sold the nice one for $2100 and bought a Reising. If you look at it purely as an investment, it was a bone-headed move. As noted, the M11 value has increased several times over, while the Reising value has increased maybe by 50-75% in the same time. But it gets back to what you want to do with the gun. I like to do Subgun competitions. The Reising gave me a C&R gun for matches with a "Classic" class, and a closed bolt gun for KCR. While the Reising isn't the optimal match gun, it is still fun and it gives me options to do additional runs. |
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Posted: 3/1/2017 1:37:12 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, after reading this thread I'm going to pony up a couple more grand and get a RR Uzi. I'll jest sell a few other guns and work some more overtime. Thanks You will not be disappointed with the UZI, they are a great gun. very accurate and fun to shoot, excellent reliability, great parts availability and lots of mil-spec mags for $15 each (or less). they also have an rabid collector following you can't go wrong with it go to uzitalk.com, they are UZI fanatics, lots of useful information |
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Posted: 3/1/2017 9:40:34 PM EDT
[#24]
Many, many years ago, a very wise person posted (on, IIRC, subguns.com): "You cannot pay too much for a transferable machine gun. You can only pay it too soon."
I read that, and took it to heart. Though I've been shooting machine guns since before I could legally drive (LE & mil family), I didn't get an MG of my own until the AW ban passed in '94. I saw the writing on the wall, sold my two suddenly-valuable SP1's for $700 each, kicked in another $600 in cash and bought an as-new Colt M16A1. Yup, for $2k. Didn't get into really buying MGs until around 2001. Bought a new M11/9 STEn-mag-converted for $1.3k, an NIB full-size Vector Uzi for $3.7k, and a beautiful pre-war hard-cased Reising for $3.7k as well. In late 2007, just before the Big Market Crash, I started feeling nervous about having so much $$$ tied up in MGs. The Reising, in particular, had soared because I had done an FOIA and research that showed it was ordered the day after Peal Harbor by the Pittsburgh PD to protect the steel mills there. So I sold the Reising, which I didn't shoot once it became so valuable, for $8.5k and the M11/9 -- which I hadn't shot since I got the Uzi -- for $3.4k. That was more than I had paid for all four transferable MGs, so as of 2007, I then had -- and still have -- a "free" Colt M16A1 and an Uzi. I have bought and sold many other MGs since then. Do I miss the M11/9, the Reising and the others? Sure. I miss every gun I've ever sold, including the two SP1's I sold to get the M16A1. But I kept the two MGs that were the ones I always shoot. And now, they are free, so no worries or family guilt. This was not planned. And it could easily be reversed, should Congress decide so. But I have had so, so, so much fun with my MGs, and brought smiles to the faces of all the folks I've let shoot them, that if they disappeared tomorrow, I would be pissed ... but still grateful that I live in a nation where I could legally own, and enjoy, them for decades now. Your Mileage May Vary. 
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