Thompson prices run from around $16k for a West Hurley (clone) in poor condition to around $60,000 for a mint Colt 1921.

A WWII Thompson will run from around $25,000 for an arsenal rebuild to $35,000 for a museum piece or rare variant.


The marketplace for all these collector MGs is so small and the supply is so weirdly restricted that the prices zoom all over the place without rhyme or reason.

A certain type of Thompsons recently zoomed up almost 40% in price and the rest of the Thompsons didn't.

How come FNCs went from $6500 to around $15,000 in the last 5 years?  Because "shooter" type guys discovered all the sweet versatility of a gun with literally no spare parts availability?

Or is it because wealthy collectors are driving the marketplace now?

How come UZIs doubled in price in 2012 and then flatlined since then?  

How come Bren LMGs sell for $45,000?  That's a British WWII gun, a pure collector item.


WWII was the biggest and most dramatic historical event in human history.

You're going to see WWII guns fall out of favor with collectors when the sun goes supernova and swallows the earth.

EXACTLY.

I'm 30. I didn't grow up remotely close to WWII. But I did grow up watching movies with HKs, M16s, and Glocks left and right. Guess what's in my safe? HKs, AR-15s, and Glocks.

I can prove exactly what Cyborg is saying as well. If you want absolute proof that versatility isn't driving the market, look at the price of an HK sear versus an MP5 registered receiver.

Hint: they're practically the same.

ETA: At this very moment, Ruben is selling an MP5K-PDW RR for $38,995 and an MP5K-PDW semi auto with a Fleming sear for $39,995. For the level of versatility that comes with the sear, it's worth shockingly little compared to the "one-trick pony" registered receiver.

Yeah, whereas my interest is in C&R guns and WW2 guns. I love my black guns, but I'm not paying $35K for a sear. I may, however, pay 20K for a nice 1919 setup.

That's gotta be pretty unusual.  The RRs always command less.  I remember seeing RR MP5s for like $22-23k when the sears and packs were $31-32k.  That one Ruben has is probably unusual because it's a "K" and fewer of those conversions were probably done.

The previous MP5 RRs (non-K) that Ruben had recently were listed for the same amount, $38k-39k. Again, it just shows that "versatility" is not something the transferable market really responds to. People want MP5s, so sears cost just about the same as MP5s.

IIRC (and my memory may be flawed), ten years ago or so, the double pin, swing down registered receiver guns were the highest priced as they emulated a true, factory HK machine gun.  Sears were second; and clipped and pinned registered receivers were lowest in price.  This was due, in part, to the relative scarcity of (hence high price of) host firearms for sears at that time.  With a number of decent quality clone hosts now available, "versatility" has been enabled, and the market value of sears has risen accordingly.

As a side note, I've read that there are more registered FNC sears than there are hosts in which to install them.  I'm not sure if the FNC arena is that limited, but the scarcity of suitable hosts is a factor in the value of the FNC sears.

MHO, YMMV, please feel free to criticize/correct, etc.

Host/spare part availability absolutely drives sear prices, because without a host the sear is a paperweight. The FNC is a perfect example.

If someone came out with a $3k HK23E, you would see HK sear prices rise - just like the development of Lage uppers made MAC prices triple.

Still, this isn't versatility. This is having a host worth a damn. While most people here would take the sear/pack for a little more money than the RR because of the added versatility, that isn't reflected in the market.

I think there are two types of HK collectors. Those who want versatility and those who want as close to factory correct spec as is possible. The former go for sears and frames. The latter go for factory correct pushpin registered receiver guns. The clip-on RR is the one that really fits neither category and those do tend to sell considerably lower than sear/frame converted guns and pushpin registered receiver guns.

I believe that pushpin RR buyers fall into the purist collector category. That the only factory transferable HKs are pre-68, very scarce, rare, and VERY expensive means that a properly converted factory spec pushpin RR fills the niche of the purist HK collector. Properly converted factory spec pushpin RRs are also not nearly as commonly on the market as are registered sears and clip-on RRs. Scarcity of legitimate specimens of unquestionable pedigree (i.e. definitively pushpin converted at the time of registration) combined with purists searching out these guns equate to higher value. I think of these as the Colt Thompsons of the transferable HK world.

I'm going to be buying an FNC later this year as soon as I finish saving up for one.  I think it's a good buy as far as transferable assault rifles go.  I've read that the rumor about more sears than hosts to put them in is not true, as today it's pretty hard to find a sear for sale by itself, but host semi host guns are still available (albeit in fairly limited numbers).

Eventually FNC or AK5 parts kits are going to hit the market and when they do the price of FNC sears is going to go through the roof (IMHO).

There's a few people still sitting on sears.

Quoted for truth!!!

check out the serial numbers on FNC sears some time

as far as I know, when the last batch was sold off, they serial numbered around 3500

unless the serial numbers are discontinuous, that means about 3500 FNC sears are out there

try finding one for sale now.  a couple of years ago, they were common and selling for $3500 or so.  now you rarely see them for twice that price


On the other hand, FNC rifles are still relatively abundant

There's one shop I know of that has a bunch and only offers them as part of a conversion package.

Well I went to a machinegun shoot and shot a decent amount. My only regret is not staying longer to shoot even more types, but I had to leave early for an emergency.

1928 Thompsons with and without the compensator- You definitely feel the bolt rocking forward on the first shot and then it just rolls... rock and roll! Certainly heavier than I imagined and it had a more awkward stock angle, but I'm sure one could easily get used to it with practice. Flawless function though!!!

MP40- I'm actually kinda ashamed to admit it... but I really enjoyed shooting this even more so than the Thompsons. It unfortunately jammed twice in the one magazine, but it was so controllable with such a low recoil impulse. I'm wondering if the issues was due to the age of the magazine or because it was a tube gun.

MP44- This was shockingly my favorite gun of the day. I regret only getting one magazine through it. It was very controllable and surprisingly ergonomic... but I loved the visceral experience of shooting it. It actually felt like I could feel the gun come alive with each chugga chugga cycling of the action with the recoil spring thrumming by my ear. Zero malfunctions but it was with surplus 8mm Kurz that I was told is very difficult to find now. I believe new Prvi brass ammo uses a different rim angle which can cause FTE issues. The dealer also warned me to not fall too much in love with them as a regular shooter due to common problems with the trigger group and how difficult it is to find replacement parts and magazines. He said they weren't designed to last 50+ years of use like an AK was... which makes a lot of sense lol.

BAR- Oh man... that was an unforgettable experience. I didn't have any issues with the weight or the recoil, but I knew to use a proper stance and to fire in bursts. Was very much a fun shooter if noticeably dated in functionality.

Grease Gun- Ehh... I obviously wasn't blown away at the build quality lol, and the shooting experience just wasn't as enjoyable as many of the others. I also became quickly annoyed at the popped open dust cover being in my field of view the entire time. Very functional... but very much a working man's tool.

1919A4- I was so excited to shoot it!! Until the RO informed me that the T&E were locked and that I couldn't even get down behind the sights. He said that the rear plate could weaken and cause the recoil rod/spring to shoot back and I'd have a new hat for the rest of my life. So basically just get on your knees by the gun and pull the trigger. Whoopty doo... shoulda asked for a refund before shooting.

MG74 - I thought it was a MG42 at first but the guy corrected me after the first several malfunctions. I regret paying $90 just for 100 rounds through this gun. It was the gun I was most excited for and the most let down by. They tried even swapping belts to a hotter 308 round, but good grief. I stopped counting after 10 malfunctions/jams. It got to the point where the owner came over and asked that I back off the gun each time for his guys to try clearing it each time. Same thing would happen just a few shots later. I think I managed to get a single 10 round burst in. They pulled it off line after I finally managed to choke out the last few rounds.

Full size Uzi - Was surprisingly very controllable and obviously flawless in function. Its ergonomics were actually way better than I anticipated. I'm almost positive there was a buffer in the gun however. At this point, I was kinda relieved just to shoot a gun that didn't jam up every second. I again could feel the gun rocking slightly off target on the first trigger pull but its consistent shooting feel made it easy to get quickly on target and hold it there.

MP5 - Yup. It's as controllable, reliable, and low recoil as advertised. It was almost too easy to hit the targets with this gun. I really really liked the controls of this gun. I had a lot of fun just manipulating the gun and playing with the charging handle and even the paddle mag release.

MP5K - Honestly... it was very similar to the full size MP5. It was definitely a smaller package, but I still preferred the full size MP5. It may have had a faster rate of fire?

M16A1 - Rented it a couple times. I was actually quite surprised at how much I enjoyed shooting the M16A1 in its original configuration. I thought I'd never get one because of my Echo trigger... but it obviously is a much smoother shooting experience while offering a consistent and noticeably faster ROF. Instead of focusing on maintaining nice trigger pulls on the Echo, I could just relax and pick apart targets with ease.

Guns I wish I had the time to try are the AK47/AK74, M60, Sten, PPSH41, and a MAC11. Oh and a real MG42 of course. Really bummed I missed out on trying an AK since I feel they'd be a great combination of modern functionality and familiarity while allowing a really raw connection like the MP44 and BAR did.

Walking away from this experience, I can definitely see why M16A1s and HK sears are so popular and increasing in price at a faster rate than all the other popular MGs. Looking around at other shooters, I was actually quite surprised by how many guns had malfunctions and failures. I feel most of the older guns left a more raw sensation, but I also can't deny how much fun the newer guns also were.


In a few more months, I'm going to have enough funds ready to try and snatch up a Colt M16A1. I'll probably shoot it in its original configuration for a while but then carefully store the components and put on a modern upper and lower components for a gun that I'll never let go.

I also planned on getting a new car in early 2018... but screw it. My current car still works just fine. I'm thinking after the M16A1 will be a HK sear by this time next year if prices don't soar way past $30,000.
I'm afraid I caught the MG bug pretty bad... and have a feeling I'll be saving up and buying MGs for the forseeable future lol.

@ Johnson184

Glad you had a chance to try a variety of MGs to help you decide.

FWIW Ive put a few bursts through an AK47 before and wasn't terribly impressed, it seemed a little choppy due to the slower rate of rifle. It also doesn't help that most Transferable AKs are conversion of lower quality imported rifles, I believe from china as trade with the soviet union was non existent prior to 1986. It would be a fun second or third MG but not something I would start my collection with, but that's just my opinion of course.

Now I have accidentally flung the recoil spring rod into my stomach.... OUCH.  Never again and I always wear glasses while taking the bolt out.

I shoot mine from a Bren tripod with T&E but I can move it side to side easily.  Elevation I rotate the T&T.  I do have a MG42 tripod with AA mount so I could shoot it that way, just never have.

Blew another top cover in my 1919 this weekend, looks like a banana.  Thanks to 1952 Yugo 8mm.  Have tons of Yugo left so I ordered several more top covers from Sarco. 

--
No Ma deuce? and you should have tried the PPSH.  Brrrrrrp....  Very fast and controllable.

Your MG Shoot experiences/opinions from firing different weapons are very similar to my own. The fact that you can appreciate an automatic rifle with some "horsepower" that "comes alive" when you pull the trigger tells me that you would love a 7.62x39mm AK. Some inexperienced shooters have trouble firing them effectively, because they aren't as easy to tame as some lower-powered automatic rifles. They are my favorite to shoot, and (in my humble opinion ) are way way more fun than an M16 or H&K roller lock.

Most of the transferable AK rifles are conversions of Chinese Type 56 stamped receiver rifles, which is a very good thing. Most Chinese stuff is crap, but boy can they make an excellent AK! Their U.S. export AK rifles were built in the same government arsenals as their military rifles, using the same component parts, except for the necessary semi-auto modifications for U.S.-spec. rifles.

The Chinese Type 56 is an almost part-for-part copy of a milled AK-47, but is built with a substantially thicker than normal, 1.5mm stamped receiver. This is the same cross-sectional receiver thickness as a milled AK-47, which allowed the use of the same internal parts in both stamped and milled rifles. It also makes the stamped Type 56 one tough rifle! The Soviet and other European AKM rifles are built with thinner, 1mm stamped receivers, lightweight barrels, and other lighter duty parts. They are still tough as nails, but not as tough as a milled AK-47 or a Chinese Type 56 AK. The Chinese stamped receiver Type 56 rifles use the same "heavy barrel" contour as the milled AK-47, in addition to the aforementioned exact same "bulletproof" forged steel internal parts.

People who know AK rifles consider the stamped receiver Chinese rifles to be Top Notch in quality and durability.

Is hard to argue an AK is a bad buy i just struggled with it  because the price point at the time..a dias for 20k or an ak for 30k was hard to go with the AK..then more recently i had to go hk sear over AK because i wanted .308 beltfed primarily,but love the variety of host i could use later.

While a RR AK will last forever and have parts forever, there are just to few when compared to sears/RR from the hk/ar family.so to me the AK is more desirable to a collect its a hard sell depending on price point and is hardly entry level.
Ironically, this make me want one even more , but at the same time id like to collect the set so for the price of the ak i could get an FNC SEAR and a lightning link.

It really all depends on how much money you have and what you want to do.

Good choice on the M16. It's the leggo of machineguns.

I can say for sure that serials go up to at least 3600.

there used to be this blah blah circulating that there are "more sears than hosts"

supposedly there are 6000 fnc rifles and it looks like somewhere on the order of 3600 sears

so much for that myth

everyone was trying to convince themselves that FNC sears are plentiful for some reason

try to find one now

According to Uzi Talk there are greedy investors sitting on hundreds of sears just waiting for the right time to sell! Lol.

My FNC sear is a few short of #3500.

Those greedy sear holders need to get busy importing FNC kits or tooling up to make them in the US if they really want to make some money.
Imagine how sear prices would jump if there were 5,000 kits and some modularity all of a sudden.

The FNC is a fantastic gun and if there were kits available, the price of the FA version would go up probably 5 or 10 grand in a few days


There might be people sitting on sears but unless they are sitting on 2500 of them and they kept them absolutely secret, that means that the total number of sears is around 3600

you see them pop up with 3500+ serial number, but you never see 4000, 5000 or 6000 serial number range


a few years ago one of the original manufacturers got sued or in legal trouble and his stash of a few hundred went on the market and you could buy them pretty easy for around $3000

nowadays, they are very hard to find, sometimes 6 months will go by with none for sale anywhere


people are going to keep saying that "there are more FNC sears than hosts" because people like repeating little nifty slogans

but the evidence and the current marketplace strongly suggests the opposite



ETA

I just did a search, I see three loose sears for sale, priced around $10,000

that just about the strongest climb in price that I have seen for any NFA MG

the price basically tripled in the last 5 years

Just got back from a day of renting machine guns locally. Was able to shoot at paper targets this time so I could actually see my results compared to how the recoil impulses felt.

UZI - Nice and easy to hold on target. Was able to hold every round into the target's chest easily. But with how much they're rising in prices... I think I'd rather own and shoot a MP40 or even a West Hurley (The older Blish lock Colts with vertical foregrips are too pricey for me) Thompson for similar money.

MP5 - From my last time shooting it, I knew it'd be lower recoil than the UZI... but holy crap! I was able to hold tight groups into the targets' heads while mag dumping. The MP5 did have a red dot though which made it extremely easy. Also has a much shorter lock time than the UZI since it's not an open bolt subgun. I also just enjoy manipulating the gun more than an UZI's controls/bolt.

M16 - Had an annoying M203 launcher attached so it was harder to maintain firm control. Still the lowest recoil and most controllable rifle I've tried. Bursts were easy to get every round on target.

HK 33K - My first full auto HK sear host that wasn't a MP5. I didn't realize it'd have noticeably more recoil than the M16 until I tried firing it in bursts. I could get the first shot on the chest, second shot around the upper chest/neck, and then any other shots would frequently be misses. I believe most HK sear owners highly recommend this as a host, but I'm not sure how much I'd shoot it if I had access to a M16A1 as well. I probably need more trigger time to get the hang of it. I can only imagine how much harder it is to shoot a .308 host lol.

AK47 - Maybe it's the rifle I was shooting, but even a quick pull of the trigger resulted in a 2 round burst. 2 round bursts consistently hit the target with the second shot definitely going higher up on the chest. Anything more and the rounds were sailing over the target's shoulder. Long pulls of the trigger resulted in laughable results.

AK74 - MUCH easier to control than the AK47 for obvious reasons. Still felt quite a bit more recoil compared to a M16, but you could still hold 3-4 shot bursts on target with practice. Not sure it gets much better for an AK platform. Not sure about this, but the bummer is I think most of the transferables out there are converted 7.62x39 or .223 AKs. Not sure how durable those would be.

M240B - Finally a real belt fed experience without a single jam! I really wanted to shoot a M60 since there's no way I'd ever be able to acquire a transferable M240. Two military vets there convinced me to rent the M240B since they said it felt really similar to the M60 off a bipod.
HOT DAMN! Literally hot damn! I fired it from the prone with a short sleeve shirt and will probably have these brass burn marks on my arm forever lmao. So controllable and so much power just being sent down range. It had an Trijicon M240 Acog on it and I realized I had the gun canted a bit to the left which caused all my rounds to group just left of my POA. Guess that just takes training and discipline to remember to keep the gun as level as possible. If a M60 is similar... I want one!


Final MG decision for me after all this renting and all of y'alls advice is a Colt M16A1 and a HK Qualified or Fleming sear. I really enjoyed shooting the M16A1 and MP5 and could easily see myself happily shooting them at every range trip for the rest of my life. Going to have to put in extra hours at work while cutting down on my other expenses for the next year to afford both. Machinegun prices keep climbing every year or two... but these two easily lead the way. I see 2014 forum posts where people were complaining about $25000 HK sears and $20000 M16A1 rifles.
The M16A1 is really fun to shoot in stock configuration, but I'm really eager to swap a modern upper on there to get even more performance out of it.
The HK MP5 is just too enjoyable not to own. I guess submachine guns are outdated now with all the short barrel carbine options out there. Shooting subsonic 9mm through a suppressed MP5 must be an incredible experience, but you could get the same if not improved performance out of a 300BLK SBR. Honestly not even sure what other HK hosts I'd even want.
The MM21E and MM23E are really intriguing options... but I remember reading a couple posts where everyone preferred the M60 over the HK beltfeds.
Unless I come across a well priced RIA M60 and I had funds ready, a M60 is going to be 3rd on my list, but it may be years down the road. Hopefully the prices will hold steady... kinda hard to say with how few come available.

Very wise choices.

The Thompsons made from 1921 to around mid 1942 were the "blish lock" type with the cocking handle on the top.  These are the 1921 and 1928 models.  The cocking knob is on the top.

It was really expensive so early in 1942 they simplified it by removing a bunch of fancy features like the blish lock mechanism and Cutts compensator, barrel fins, etc.  These are the M1 and M1A1 models.  The cocking knob is on the side.

The 1921 and 1928 models are more "Thompson-ish", but the M1 and M1A1 are technically a better war weapon.  

Production of all original Thompsons stopped in 1944 when the grease gun was adopted.

After WWII, a small number of Thompsons were pieced together in the 1950s from original parts by Numrich Gun Parts corp.


In the 1970s, a company bought the rights to the Thompson logo and started making new Thompsons in both the 1928 and M1A1 models.

They are typically not good guns, they were made in small machine shops in NY.  There are dimensional problems with most of them.  The blish doesn't work right on the 28s and the mag well is malformed on the M1s.

These guns are ALL marked WEST HURLEY on the side.  They made about 3000 total.


Right now, pre-WWII Thompsons  are fetching around $30k to $60k

WWII Thompsons are around $25k, for both the 1928 and M1 type models, with some of the very early 1940 production at around $35k

West Hurleys of the 28 and M1 type are from $16k to $20k depending on condition, from well used mutt to NIB.

Not if the cost keeps the guy from buying one for another 10 years

sounds to me like he should be shopping in the MAC family

he's already put it off for years and years he says.   that's a losing strategy as we all know

An M16 makes a great first MG as long as you can afford to buy one within the next 6 months to a year. if you're a member on this website it should be an easy transition to operate and maintain one and right out of the box you will have spare parts and uppers for it. Plus if you never get around to buying another MG an M16 has enough options to keep you from ever getting bored,  only the M16 and the HK are capable of being a subgun, assault rifle, and a belt fed with all changes made in the field without the use of tools.

i always thought an HK sear with HK 21/32 host or a M60E6 would be my second MG but it's been 4 years since I bought my M16 and I wasn't able to save up anywhere near enough for either, the base MG plus upgrades, hosts, optics, lasers, lights, etc... Would have been well over $50k for either option. With a growing family and a wife soon to be working part time I realized I would just be chasing prices and it would take me decades to save up enough. I instead took what I did have saved up and bought and M11/9, with the Lage upper it seems like a fun little gun and should increase in value with time. Maybe someday when I'm retire and the kids are grown and on their own I can trade it in towards an M60, I the mean time I think I'll save for a Shrike upper to scratch the belt fed itch.

I assumed he was ready to buy. If not, then you are absolutely correct.




This was my exact thinking when I bought my first MG - a Colt M16. If I could only have one, I wanted the M16. I'm conflicted when I consider if I could keep only one, would I keep an M16 or DLO HK frame.  The M16 is far easier and less costly than the HKs to service, maintain, and swap configurations.

Ugh... ya... you guys are right. I can't afford a M16 right now. Too many unexpected life expenses.

Because I bought a Fleming HK Sear!! Was really certain I'd get a M16 like a Colt M16A1, but I couldn't turn down the chance to get a registered HK sear from a trusted dealer for $30k. M16s and HK sears keep rising faster than all the other MGs I like... and there's simply far less HK sears on the market than M16s. (I'd obviously prefer a Colt M16A1, but if I had to... there's still other AR15/M16 manufacturers that I could send to M60Joe for a functional shooter)

Now to decide on which MP5 variant from Omega. Leaning towards a full size, but I'm also eyeing the MP5K and the MP5SD. Also have to decide between a classic look or a welded optic rail. Advice?
One host for now since I'm going to be saving up for the M16 now lol.


Thanks to y'all for all the input and knowledge!

I would avoid the Todd Bailey's family personally for a host. Maybe look at a TPM mp5sd(or full sized mp5) as they have a good rep.

I would go full size or SD for a sear host because of the slower rate of fire vs. a K. If you're okay with the cleaning regimen, the SD is an absolute joy due to how light the recoil is. However, you'd have to wait for the stamp to clear on the silencer, while with the full size you can immediately put a stock on it and be GTG since that's the only host. File the Form 1 to SBR the host while you save up for additional hosts or an M16.

ETA: And Baby Jesus cries every time you weld an optic rail onto an MP5. The iron sights are fantastic and they're part of the character of the gun. It's 9mm, you don't need an optic with iron sights that good.