I already own a transferable M11/9 that I've heavily modified with Lage stuff and run suppressed. Great SMG and I love it, but now I want another transferable subgun. MP5 and converted AR/M16 are out of my price range, Sten is boring IMO (yes, I've shot it), and I don't want another Mac. What I want is another 9mm SMG that is a different experience to shoot, and I've pretty much narrowed it down to the S&W76 or a fullsize Uzi.

I've shot an S&W76 and loved it; very smooth and controllable, although the trigger was very heavy and sucked. My concern with that gun is part availability and mods - there seem to be none of either. I should also mention that while I am not as well versed and have not shot the "knock-offs" of the S&W76 like the MK760, I am open to them as possibilities and would appreciate input. Basically I think it's a great looking subgun that shoots incredibly well.

I haven't shot an Uzi, however from what I understand it is pretty similar to a Lage'd M11/9 (I know there are many comparison threads between the two, I'm not looking to get into that debate.) It strikes me as a tough, rugged, reliable and versatile 9mm SMG with great historical background and strong historical increase in value. Parts also seem to be widely available. But I worry that it will be too similar to my Lage'd M11/9. Also, the ROF seems a bit low on the stock fullsize Uzi's in 9mm - can this be increased a bit without unnecessary wear to the receiver?

I'm inclined to go with an S&W76 (or something like the MK760...again advice on these derivatives would be helpful) if someone can assuage my concerns regarding parts availability.

Right there, you've made the "pro" case for the UZI.  

The world's militaries are widely surplusing UZI's right now, which means there's
just a plethora of "parts kits" available... also many unissued spare parts & magazines.
Also a lot of 3rd-party stuff easily available... many manufacturers make dedicated
suppressor mounts for it, etc., etc.

I will straight up say that I know nothing of the S&W 76, other than it's less common
than the UZI (=parts/accessories less common & more expensive, generally).  No doubt others
will quickly chime in on this.



You'll have to decide what's right for you; there are some similarities, certainly.

If you want another 9mm subgun & can't spring for an HK, the Sterling would we
another option.  A little different feel, many parts available; a bit more difficult to
suppress.  

Best of luck!

Not sure this is even a question to ask... UZI

Finnish Suomi kp/31

/thread

BRP gun. Shoot 9mm and 45acp.

An AR costs roughly the same as an Uzi.

Damn.  Seems like the days of a $6,000 Uzi weren't that long ago.

I'd take the UZI no question, then sell the M11 because you won't want to shoot it anymore after shooting the UZI

I'd take an Uzi any day of the week over a 76/760. Mags are a problem for them where an Uzi for $100 you'll be swimming in them.

Thanks for the feedback. The Uzi definitely seems like the more practical solution for a shooter like myself, but my gut really leans toward the S&W76 because I enjoy shooting that so much. I guess I really ought to shoot a fullsize Uzi too.

I'm glad to hear the Uzi can be sped up. I have plenty of 9mm suppressors; I run my M11/9 suppressed with a Bowers VERS-9S, so if I was to run multiple subguns side-by-side I'd probably throw my Mystic on one of them because I've found that handles fullauto in 9mm really well.

On second thought, I shouldn't rule out a properly converted AR lower. A Colt M16 is definitely not something I am willing to spend the premium on, but something like a Frankford Arsenal, Sendra or Olympic Arms lower would be something I'd be willing to toss in a few extra thousand for. I haven't been too up on those prices lately though, seems like they are going for $17-18k...is that about right?

UZI. No contest.

You can find them at $17k or less. Post a wtb add on your local forum. I got one locally for $15,250 less then a month ago.

uzi

The Uzi wins between those two. I used to own an Uzi but didn't really like it for some reason. I must say try to get your hands on a Sterling and shoot one, they are so nice its not even funny how smooth they are.

Since the Sterling has been brought up, I'll chime in as I own a Sterling, an UZI & an M11/9.  I do not own a S&W 76.  I probably never will due to the aformentioned parts & mag availabilty.

The UZI is a great SMG.  Very rugged, reliable, & simple to take down & clean.  It also has great ergos, although it is heavy.

The Sterling is just as reliable, but not as easy to take down & cleaning is more of a pain due to the tube receiver.  The side mounted magazine make the Sterling a little bulky & it does not carry as well as a "flat" SMG.

On paper the UZI is a better gun, The only negative being the weight.  Until you shoot them.  The rates of fire are very similar.  If I remember correctly, my PAC shows the Sterling in the mid 450 RPM & the UZI in the mid 460 RPM.  But rate of fire is not everything.  The Sterling is remarkably smooth & the UZI has a little bit of a "choppy" feel to it.  You can shoot the Sterling with one hand & it still will not rise.  The bolt never touches the rear of the receiver of the Sterling, while the UZI bolt does impact the rear of the receiver, hence the "choppy" feel.

What is important to you?  The UZI has a lot of parts & cheap mags available & also some caliber conversions.  The Sterling not as much, but it is a GREAT shooter.

Which ever you choose, I predict your MAC will soon be relegated to 2nd class status.

I don't agree with the "get the most useful and versatile gun" theory.


You should think about avoiding a gun that you cannot buy spare parts and magazines for.  Like the FNC.  You want spare parts for that gun, you have to buy a $3300 semi and cannibalize it.

If you have your heart set on an FNC, go ahead and get it.  But be aware that shooting an MG is not a gentle thing and something might break at some point.


If you insist on buying the "smartest" gun, then argument is over, the smartest gun is the M16.

The king of versatility and spare parts is the M16.  You literally cannot do better, the gun is an erector set with 5,000 vendors making parts and a 40+ year worldwide usage.  


But that's not the end of the story.

This purchase is an extravagance, like buying a Rolex.  James Bond could wear a $50 Timex sports watch, but a Rolex is COOL.

You're not looking in Consumer Reports and then picking the best microwave oven, or buying a set of tires for a minivan.

You're buying something because it's cool.  No more and no less.  So you should get what you like best, not what's smartest.


If undecided, the safest bet is one of the blue chip MGs - MACs, UZIs, Thompsons, M16s and MP5s.  Nobody ever regrets having bought one of those.

I would highly recommend and M16, especially if you are only planning to buy one MG. I went with a Frandford Arsenal/Oly Arms, had gun smith work and anodizing done at USAnodiazing. Its 100% in spec and looks like a factory new lower.
FWIW an HK sear is more versatile but also way more expensive, as are the host guns.
An M16 can shoot 5.56, 9mm, 300blk, 7.62x39, 22lr, and more. There are two belt fed options for it and parts are extremely cheap. Plus if you are on this forum chances are you already have a couple AR15s, if so you instantly have numerous MGs

M16 Market Data
Transferable M16 machine guns and estimated market values:  (These are the "I want it right now" prices. If you are patient and do some digging you can save a grand or more.)
RLL $15-18k
RDIAS $27-32k
RR Non-Colt Cast AR15 Conversion $17-19k
RR Non-Colt AR15 Conversion $18-20k
RR Colt AR15 SP1 Conversion $18-20k
RR Colt AR15 614 $22-24k
RR Colt M16 $22-24k
RR Colt M16A1 $24-28k
RR Colt M16A2 $28-33k
RR Colt M16A2 Commando $33-38k (Marked "Auto" instead of "Burst")

Websites to watch for good deals on machine guns:
http://www.sturmgewehr.com
http://www.atfmachinegun.com
http://www.autoweapons.com
http://www.impactguns.com
http://www.subguns.com
http://www.onlythebestfirearms.com
http://www.davidspiwak.com
http://dealernfa.com
http://www.gunbroker.com
http://www.nfasales.com
http://www.classiiidealers.com/
http://www.westernfirearms.com/
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/class-iii-full-auto/
http://www.urban-armory.com/
http://www.ar15.com/forums/f_7/118_NFA_Firearms_andamp__Parts.html

Website that tracks machine gun values:
http://www.machinegunpriceguide.com/

UZI. More parts out there, to include .22 conversions and mags.

22 conversions

LOL

be sure to sprinkle with lots of pixie dust

Even if you have to tinker to get it to run properly, it's better than the SW76 which, AFAIK, does not even have one on the market.

Mini Uzi.

the value of most caliber conversions is pretty marginal because they offer no real advantage

changing a Thompson from 45 acp to 9mm or an UZI from 9mm to 45 is not a remarkable difference that most people would care about


going to 22 is kind of neat but it's not fantastic.   If there was a mag that held 500 rounds and they ran really good, then it would be worth the money

shooting 22 out of an UZI will save you like $2 a mag for over 9mm reloads and $4 over factory ammo

it's not really the dramatic savings that everyone thinks

when you consider that the kit is going to run you $600 it's kind of hard to justify, your break even point on rounds fired is like 5,000 rounds


couple that with the fact that the frikkin kits generally work like crap

some people can get them running decent, some can't

it's hit and miss, you're taking a chance buying a 22 kit.


I've bought two 22 kits already, I regard them as a flat waste of money and I'll never buy another.  One I gave away and the other I sold at 50% discount and was glad to get rid of it.


I think most people don't really care about caliber conversion, they don't seem to mention it all that much.  I would say it is not a big factor in what most people decide to buy.

I currently have both an M11/9 and a full-size Uzi. My thoughts on the matter:

For the M11/9, I have a Max-11, Max-31, Lage .22 conversion, and I ran it as a TASK slow fire conversion in competition before all of the other stuff was available. I've got magazines in 20, 30, 32, 58, and 72 round capacities.  The .22 kit has 20, 40, and 165 round mags. It is easier to mount optics on the M11, but not terribly difficult on the Uzi either.

In the Uzi I can shoot .22LR, 9mm, .40, 45 (semi-only bolt at this time), and .357 Sig. Mags are in 25, 32, 40, and 100 round capacities in 9mm. I can shoot it in open or closed bolt configuration (although CB is not reliable).

I really don't shoot them much in any caliber beside 9mm. And while I shoot them each about the same amount, I find they are both very similar.

The Uzi is a little quieter suppressed, and less likely to gas you out. I've got a couple of small-diameter cans that I won't shoot on the M11 any more, as I need a gas mask for them. But for either gun, I prefer the VERS-9S anyway.

Having said al of that, if I were in the OP's shoes (already own an M11 with Lage stuff), I probably would not buy the Uzi. In fact, I've considered selling one or the other and buying something different with the proceeds. And I would probably end up unloading the Uzi, since it is worth more.

For a subgun, I would get a Sterling, for all the reasons listed above. When I bought the Uzi 10 years ago, it was a long debate between the Uzi and the Sterling. In the end, I could get a .22 conversion for the Uzi and not the Sterling. (Keep in mind, 500 .22s cost $12, and there was no Lage M11/22 conversion yet).  I also liked the possibility of doing a closed bolt conversion, specifically for the Knob Creek Subgun Match.

Maybe I should trade the Uzi toward an M16. That way I'd have a closed bolt gun, with all the versatility that goes along with it. Although I've seen a lot of M16/9s that didn't run all that well. Hmmm

(I just re-read what you wrote.  I first read it to mean the stock kept breaking. Or do you mean that parts of the factory gun (stock configuration) kept breaking?)

And therein was your problem.  The factory stock is really awful.  It was actually a slight improvement on the MAC10 stock, as that one would tend to ride up and over your shoulder easily.  But it was designed for compactness first, and shootability second.  And then it was poorly engineered, so it tended to collapse mid-burst, as you discovered.  

I bought the M11/9 specifically because I wanted a better competition gun.  I'd shot one of the ISSMC matches with my MAC10/45 (and won the coveted Last Place Trigger Lock award ), and decided I needed something a little more "competitive".  I didn't want to drill a hole in my PS MAC, so I sold a couple of Title I guns and bought a pair of M11/9s for around $2,000 total  (the good old days).  I immediately drilled the hole and converted the one M11, and the other became a safe queen, like yours.   I ended up selling it a few years later to buy a Reising (It gave me closed bolt for the Creek, and "Classic" for ISSMC).  





And had I done it in the order you did (Uzi first, not cost-effective to Lage out the M11), I would have done it the same way as you.



And that's the reality check I have any time I seriously start considering selling the Uzi to buy an M16.  I nearly bought a Sendra when they were $5000, and I was looking at an Oly a few years later at $9000.  Both times, I couldn't financially justify it.  Now with all of the extra stuff I have with my Uzi, I could likely part it all out and have enough to buy a converted AR15.  

But then there's what you just said: 9mm is hard on the receiver.  And I would shoot it 95% in 9mm.  Unless I find a local 3-gun match that lets you use the selector, rifle-caliber full-auto for me would just be the occasional recreational mag dump.  More likely it would be me letting other people shoot it.  Nearly all of my F/A shooting is in pistol calibers, because I like shooting competition, and most F/A competition is geared around subguns.  And as you alluded to, the Uzi (or tricked out M11) makes a better subgun than an M16.  If it wasn't for Knob Creek having a Closed Bolt category, it wouldn't really even be a consideration for me.  

I vote large magwell mac 11a1 with a side of Lage

I think they would feel pretty close based on my experiences although I have never had the chance to shoot them back to back.

I would sell the M11/9 and just buy an M16.

If you want to keep the M11/9, get a rifle caliber MG, that will definitely deliver a different experience.  I think even a Mini-14 would be more interesting to you than an Uzi if you keep the M11/9.