I'm looking to dip my foot in the class 3 waters.  I'm beginning to research what I may want, and wondered if anyone could share reputable dealers I can check with

David spiwak, i like him hes great on price seems to be just below everyone else.

What do you want to buy? Transferable machine guns? SBRs? SBS? DD? Silencers?

The three well known MG dealers are:


My first MGs were from Ruben Mendiola. His prices are very high, but you know what you'll get. Ruben also deals mainly with the common NFA stuff.


Frank...Frank.


Spiwak...selection is a bit thin, to me that's his only downside.


Of the three above, I've never purchased anything from Spiwak.


There are a number of other lesser known, but reputable, dealers.

Looking at transferable mg.

I'm assuming Frank is no good?

I'm not saying that. I wouldn't bad mouth another mans' business.

Never implied it. Im just asking if I need to research into him or just avoid him altogether

Feel free to PM me if youd rather not air something

There's also John at NFA sales. I've never bought from him but people seem to be happy with him. The only issue I see with Frank is him selling items he doesn't have yet. Therefore you never know what your going to get. I bought 1 gun from him that was instock and the service was great. They sent me extra pics and video of the gun. The transfer was submitted right away and I was updated the whole time. I have no complaints.

This is true, i bought a mg without it being in stock. Turns out it was missing parts and needed lots of work. Unless its a steal and you have a good relationship with dealer its not a good thing .

Which business is Franks?

A lot of dealers sell MGs without the MG being in their inventory or possession. The dealer will use a simple consignment agreement. This is done because the dealer doesn't want to wait for the appropriate paperwork, or the dealer is afraid that the seller will change their mind.

The downside to this approach is that the dealer/broker sometimes has no idea what he is selling.

I'm looking for something in 9mm. What all is available in the sub 10k market?

You might not but I will. Frank is a piece of.....lots of four letter words. He doesn't own 98% of the guns that he lists. Not only that but his listings are so full of holes it's not even funny. Frank also sold a S&H sear in a MP5SD that we transferred for a customer at a shop I used to help out at, come to find out the MP5 sear was actually a S&H FNC sear that someone destroyed and faked on a HK sear. Frank's reply? Oh, sorry, that's out of my control. So much for that 100% customer satisfaction. The ATF sized that MP5SD. Last I heard he offered a 50% refund. Really? 50%? That's nice of you. Makes that customer whole again doesn't it? I mean he says he is this big shot MG dealer and has a plane to fly around and buy MG's with. He should fix his mistake.

Why people buy from Frank I'll never know.

Options are pretty limited nowadays in the sub 10K market.

Off the top of my head in 9MM.

Sten
Mac 10
M11/9
S&W76
Burgess clone SW76
BRP Guns Stemple Tube Gun

Maybe a bare Uzi conversion bolt with no host.

I would also stay away from Frank as most everything is consignment and he has a history of mis-representing guns.  Cant say if its intentional or not but I have seen enough auctions he has run that have raised my eyebrows that I would be really wary unless you are really experienced and know what you are looking at.

There are a bunch of dealers on the subguns recommended dealer list beyond just Ruben and David.  Most all of them have been in business for decades and have at least a halfway decent reputation in the industry.

If you decide to get a Burgess or BRP Guns Stemple tube conversion that you can buy brand new direct from either Jim or Brian with confidence.

I agree. Subguns RDL is the best place to find vetted dealers. The BRP SMGs are pretty neat. A guy had one at a MG shoot I attended last month. It ran like s scalded dog. Prob the best sub-$10k SMG other than a MAC.

To the OP, if at all possible I would increase your budget and find a SMG-spec registered receiver fullsize UZI.

Same....twice....Spiwak is great!

Like I said I'm just starting to dip my toes in. I have a pretty nice grand collection I may sell to fund a NFA purchase

In my opinion, Frank is... questionable.

I know a guy who bought an MG from Frank.  He said "You will never find a nicer gun."

He never set eyes on the gun, it shipped direct to my buddy's dealer from a guy in Florida.  So how did he know it was such a nice gun?

A couple of times he's listed collector Thompsons with "interesting" descriptions that got torn to shreds by the Thompson collector community.  You can find the threads over on machinegunboards.com


We gun buyers are a bunch of pussies.  We get bad service but we're afraid to say so.  Some guys even praise vendors after they get bad service.

"Jim the gunsmith took 15 months to fix my gun and he scratched the barrel and told me to fuck off but he's a GREAT GUY."

As soon as you can, buy a registered receiver UZI, you can get a nice full auto vector or IMI conversion for around $13k or so.

don't buy one with a registered full auto bolt or a conversion with a slotted bolt.

Then buy a bowers suppressor with the UZI barrel nut mount.

prices are on the move again, you sit back and wait and you'll be sooooooorrrrrrrrreeeee.

just buy this one right now.

http://dealernfa.com/shop/imi-uzi-registered-receiver-sa48994/

reputable dealer, good price

Here's an explanation on UZI conversions:

http://www.uzitalk.com/reference/pages/FAconversions_full.htm

I've bought four MG's from him and sold him two and a suppressed 9MM M-16 upper.

Also bought a couple of Title-1 guns from him and some accessories.

Straight shooter, fair prices, and a nice guy.

He has more stuff in inventory than is on his website - just ask him if he has what you're interested in.

Ok boys. Just looking at it Ive pretty much got it narrowed down to:

Mac 10
M11/9
Uzi
BRP Guns Stemple Tube Gun

Im looking for something reliable, has parts available to replace worn parts and will at least maintain value

Looking in 9mm primarily, but like the fact you can swap uppers on the Macs.

What say the hive?

M11/9. The upper options are really nice. Im biased a bit as its my only MG but got it for a great price and I have a .22 upper, 2 lage slow fire uppers and several stock uppers. Its like having 3 subguns at once. What has really made it a great investment is ZMAGs. New high quality metal magazines that for most folks work great without any modification. Mags were always the weak point of the m11s but now that is a non issue.

Subguns.com has or had a Recommended Dealers list.  Here's a link I got from a search:

http://www.subguns.com/c2c3/c2c3.htm

I don't know how up to date it is or if it's still maintained.

Good luck with whoever you decide to use.

MHO, YMMV, et cetera.

If you can swing the extra cost to cover a RR Uzi that is a no-brainer to me.  

The one cyborg posted that Ruben has for sale looks pretty nice and is price competitive.  Its an IMI receiver converted by Group Ind.  The critical part is that they removed the block bar in the back.  The restrictor ring appears to still be present and the bolt relieved to clear it.  The only downside is that it wont accept factory SMG spec barrels or bolt unless  you have the barrel restrictor ring milled off.  Not a huge deal and as long as it runs there is no harm to leaving it unless you need to replace the barrel or bolt one day and want to use SMG specs bolts and barrels as replacements.

If you cant make the Uzi happen I would probably go with an M11/9.  They seem to have better aftermarket parts and conversion upper support than either the M10 "fat-macs" or their smaller M11/380 brethren.   Prices on M11s seem to keep climbing and I suspect that within the next couple years a good deal on an M11/9 is going to be finding one under 10K.

The BRP guns are nice but I don't know what parts availability will be on them if Brian ever goes away.   At some point BRP is going to run out of registered tubes and its a one man show at BRP, so parts in the long term future may be iffy.  Granted they are pretty simple guns so its nothing that couldn't be custom made if you needed a part.  They are not going to be like Uzis, where you can order any part you want off the internet.  They are also pretty heavy and are a bit of a frankenstein creation which makes them a bit of a slow mover on the open market should you ever decide to sell.

I was kinda thinking the same thing. They seem pretty proprietary to the stemple design. I would say its between an uzi and m11/9

I ordered the U45/9 kit from BRP with suppressor.  Luckily right before the price jumped 500 bucks.  I considered a M11/9 due to the availability of the Lage products but I really like that the BRP is essentially a brand new gun (on an old receiver).  By the time I got an M11/9 and some lage stuff, the price was comparable.  The BRP  shoots 2 calibers and I can get it setup for a 3rd (7.62x25, I probably won't).  There's different shrouds, barrels, suomi kits, etc that I can mess with so there's lots of different combinations available.  Some parts are probably proprietary, but I believe I can buy any extras that I might need/want to for whatever the future might hold.  Mags are fairly plentiful/affordable (for now, the lage kits use the same drums).  I haven't heard a bad thing about the guns except that they are heavy, which is probably good in some situations.  I did get to fondle one that belonged to my dealer and it was hefty but not that bad.  It seems like a very high quality piece, I was impressed considering how the "tube" guns are usually referred to.  Support wise I think there's as good of a chance of BRP being around as there is for Lage so that's a wash in my head.  So, I think either of those will shoot well and have after market support for the near future at least.  

Rumor has it another price jump is in store for the BRP guns.  Rumor has it that there is a BRP "short" kit coming later this year.  I'll likely be ordering that when/if that rumor comes true.  

Either way, they aren't getting cheaper and the BRP will probably jump in price once they are sold out.

Jbtex has good points. I'd agree with you on the Uzi or m11. Personally I'd get an Uzi just because I like the history. If you are only thinking of getting one(everyone says this but they always end up getting more) the Mac is a better choice. More cal conversions, and they have the largest market share. Which means more companies are interested in building parts for them, like lage and freedom. I think you'll see more options to the Mac in the next 2-3 years that will keep their prices on a steady climb upwards.

What are the big differences in the M10 vs M11?

M10 shorter(bulky) and thicker frame, m11 longer and thinner frame. More stuff for m11s.

The original M10 is a big heavy gun that's built like a tank.  It came in 45acp and 9mm.  The 45 can be converted to fire 9mm with a kit.  The 45 uses grease gun mags and the 9mm uses walther double feed mags.

The original M11/380 is a tiny gun that shoots 380 auto cartridges.

In the early 80s, a company called SWD made an elongated version of the 380 model called the M11/nine that shoots 9mm.  It is a light and not so study gun that shoots at a very very high rate of fire.  It uses a sucktastical single feed plastic copy of the walther mag called a "zytel."


As far as the base models go, the M10 is an accurate, reliable and indestructible gun.  Without the stock it's just a large machine pistol, with the stock and a suppressor it converts to more like a compact smg.  You can get some Lage conversion uppers for the M10 but the resulting gun is kind of heavy.

You can also get some Lage uppers for the M11/380.

The M11/nine is kind of a useless piece of crap in the stock form but the lower makes for a perfect trigger pack for the excellent Lage uppers available.  The Lage uppers more or less convert the gun to an UZI.

To sidestep the zytel mag problem, people were using PAM2 surplus mags, which worked pretty well but were prone to over-insertion.  Or you could have a STEN grip put on the M11/9 and use STEN mags.   Presently there is a metal mag on the market for the m11/9 called the zmag which apparently has solved everyone's mag problems.


If I wanted to keep the gun stock, I would get an M10.  I had an M10 in 9mm and it was an awesome little gun, very fun.  And surprisingly accurate.

If I wanted to do the various Lage uppers, I would go the M11/9 route.  They say the 22 kit for the Lage uppers works very well.  


Basically, you can't go wrong either way.  Actually, it's pretty much impossible to go wrong buying any MG.

Go over to uzitalk.com for lots of MAC info, those guys are fanatics.


That's the MAC story in a nutshell.

I have been over there as well. I'm primarily thinking 9mm. Are there as many uppers for the 10 as the 11?

Why are the 10s cheaper than the 11s? What should I be on the lookout for?

There are not as many aftermarket options or uppers for the M10 in 9mm vs. the M11/9



M10s don't have the popularity due to the more limited aftermarket upper options.  There is also no 22lr conversion kit from Lage for the M10 in either native/stock form or their slowfire M10 upper.

If you are buying an M11/9 they are all basically the same. Every single one was made by Wayne Daniels of SWD Mfg.

M10s are a mix bag made by MAC Marietta, MAC Powder Springs, RPB, JAWs, Jim Leatherwood aka  Texas MACs, partial leftover frames from RPB, JAWS and Leatherwood that were finished up and/or reworked by SWD, plus a myriad of homebrew Form 1 conversions of open bolt semi's.....and I am probably missing some.

If I was buying a MAC10 I would stick with a Miltary Armament Corp or original RPB gun factory built gun unless you are getting a really good deal, but that is just me.

I have shot or own a bunch of 9mm machine guns, Uzi, mini Uzi, MP5, Stemple Suomi, one of those folding box guns made out of a Uzi, broom handles and I have shot the semi-auto AR15.

Uzi is nice, easy to control
Mini Uzi is off the hook fast but my favorite
MP5 is cool but feels cheap to me
Stemple Suomi is heavy but runs like a sewing machine and you can write your name with it.
I cant remember who makes fold out box deal we bought but it is a great machine gun but no sights.  Almost no recoil, but very light unlike the Suomi Stemple BRP deal.

Most everyone that shoots our machine guns likes the Mini or the MP5 so it just isnt me.  Our Mini is a bolt gun, so no calibers except 9mm.  Im planning on rigging up a 9mm upper for the RR soon and I expect it to be a new favorite.

The suomi drum mag is a thing of beauty

but the MG is kind of meh

great gun but fails to blow my skirt up

it's too plain jane

Ruben Mendiola (I'm a repeat customer) #1
Autoweapons.com - great outfit, huge inventory. I buy hard to find SMG parts from them.
OnlytheBest firearms

Try these and you will not be dissapointed

 

Mac 10 vs 11 My take:


I have had 15/16 of them in the years.

I am down to 10+/-


My VERY first mg was a Mac 10 in 9mm.


Loved and still do. I do not think I could sell it.


She runs and runs.


I did the uzi conversion, the folder Ace stock, CAC45 can and and fitting, lage upper. All said and done I paid $6500 for the $2500 and $4000 the upper, stock, uzi grip. it added up fast. This is 2012 money..





If I was to buy one to run stock, mac 10/45 runs and runs. little quick but not too fast.


the baby 11a1 I have one and well. its ok.


But the Uzi is a Real MG and the Mac is stock just a range toy.


That said I would feel fine in civil unrest with ether.




Find a deal and jump on it, you can sell or trade it later if you do not like it...