I hope I didn't chase anyone away from buying a Thompson.

I want to repeat -

Thompsons are an incredibly well made gun, everything on it is heavy duty.  You will not ever break it or wear it out.

It's built like a Garand, everything on the gun is solid steel and overbuilt.

There are heaps of spare parts available, both original USGI parts in the wrapper and aftermarket parts.

If you do need gunsmithing done, you will not have a hard time finding a gunsmith and you will not have to wait a long time.  The exception is if you want Diamond K to do a complete makeover on a gun, in which case you will have to wait a few years.


The West Hurley guns are just like any clone MG, they might have problems that might take some gunsmithing to fix.  Or they might not.

Buying a WH Thompson is the exact same situation with buying a Olympic M16 clone.  First you're going to swap all the aftermarket parts off and replace with USGI and then if needed you're going to get the dimensional problems fixed by a gunsmith.

Or, maybe the Oly M16 clone just runs like a top and it doesn't need anything fixed or replaced.


There is no logical reason to not buy a Thompson, it's easily one of the best firearms ever made and from a historical/collector standpoint you cannot do better.

When Colt made the original Thompsons, they made gun so fancy and overbuilt that it cost a fortune and they could barely get anyone to buy it, it cost about $2,500 in today's money.

That's bad for them but it's great for the modern collector and shooter.

During WWII, the cost of a German MP40 was $24 each and the cost of a Thompson was $209 (In 1939), $70 (in 1942), and $45 (In 1945).

Even at it's most stripped down form the Thompson cost twice as much to build.

There's no comparison between the Thompson and just about any other SMG in terms of design and build quality, it's like comparing a Citizen watch with a Rolex.

There are three Colt Thompsons on the list of the Julia Auction in October.  Bid well and win!

My close to two year search.  1928 Savage.  Commercially sold to the Hudson County NJ. Sheriff Dept in 1941.



As noted.  Find a good WWII vintage gun.

What's the difference in value of 1921's w/ and without compensator [that were added after ~1926]

Other issues being the same...

nice gun

what serial number range is that gun?

do you have any provenance regarding it being sold to the police?

you probably want to ask this question on machinegunboards.com

None I could discern.  The A (no compensator) is less common, but more people seem to like a compensator (AC).

For me, there's less to clean with the A model.

Serial  S 141xxx    Highest known commercially sold gun to date.    I have a copy of the ATF letter, from the original form 5 transfer from AO Savage.  June 1941.

Initially, the AC appealed to me too.

The A model is a lot 'handier'... Particularly w/out the stock...  But not as tacticool...



IIRC, the 1921 model, of early serial numbers is only marked "1921"

that's an excellent gun, very interesting history

how did you get the original transfer?   FOIA?  


That serial number is much higher than what the collectors call a "Savage Commercial"

That nickname is usually applied to police savages that are under 25,000 and made in the first two months of production.

those very early guns often have colt parts in them

I encourage you to post up some pics of your gun on machinegunboards, it would be interesting to see what they have to say about the gun

some of those guys know an amazing amount of information about thompsons

some of the purists like the un-compensated gun better

I prefer the compensator, its one of the iconic features of the gun

I got the copies of the paper work from the SOT that took in all the WWII guns from the Sheriff Dept.  They had them from 1941 till 2002 when the SOT bought them all.  Two Colts, two 1928s, two 1928A1s, 23 Reisings.
I'm the 3rd owner.

I'm using the term "Commercially Sold"   Is it a Savage Commercial?   There are some Very knowledgeable people on Machinegunboards, that say yes.   It was certainly sold to the Sheriff Dept. direct from AO.

Photos posted on the Board.   Was seen by many members at the Thompson Collectors Association, Show and Shoot.  last weekend.    I'm working on getting more info from the Sheriff Dept.     Yes it is a very interesting gun.   I hope to learn more about it.  And the other guns they had.

Well I finally bit the bullet and found my Savage 1928 today.  

Not a dewatt, reweld, or covered in paint.   However, it is a NAC suffix stamped gun to keep the pricing sane ($21K) and has all the quintessential traits that to me make a Thompson a "Thompson".   Appeared to be in pretty good condition as well.

Once I get it to me I will find out how much of it is original/matching Savage parts vs. a Numrich mix gun.  The hope being that its an earlier serial number it may be more of a matching gun vs. a 500000 range which shouldn't  have features like finned barrels or lyman sites at that point to the production cycle.

Congratulations!!!!!!

"has all the quintessential traits that to me make a Thompson a Thompson"

That's why I went with a NAC gun (AutoOrdnance Bridgeport/AO134xxxNAC/$19.5K) - reasonably priced and still the real thing - even a NAC parts gun is made from left-over WWII parts - for all intents and purposes still the real thing.

One of the quickest ways to spot a Savage "Commercial" is by the Auto Ordnance adress / location on the (R) side of the receiver.

Should be a New York (not Bridgeport) address, with the patent dates towards the front of the receiver (like a 1921)

Awesome gun.

I would prefer a WWII rebuild or NAC gun, that way you can shoot it as much as you please without spoiling it.


All the parts on the NAC gun should be original USGI parts.  So you should be good to go.

As far as originality goes, the NAC guns were put-togethers from the crated parts and receivers left over from WWII.

Numrich bought the remains of the wartime production and discovered receivers and fully assembled guns in the crates.

So they did the obvious thing and pieced them together and sold them.

Technically anything presently on the gun is "original" since the gun was constructed as a parts gun originally.


To summarize, any pre-1946 part on an NAC gun is "correct".

Also, any pre-1946 part is going to be a good quality part.

"Savage Commercial" is a term that collectors came up as a handy way to refer to the police order guns sold in the first two months of Savage WWII production.

The guns were made for the British, but Savage plucked a handful of them out of the order to fill police contracts in the USA.

Then they pretty much stopped filling any police orders

99.999% of the British order never came back to the USA after the war, so those 100 or so super-early police savages are all that's left of the production run.

Those guns are characterized by having a serial number under 25,000 and they usually bear some smattering of leftover Colt parts.  

They were made between april to june 1940.


Savage Commercials are very rare guns and they are valuable, so some guys try to call their later WWII guns "Savage Commercial" just because they were sold to a police department.

That would include a couple of guys on machinegunboards.

The term was invented to refer to 100 or so 1940 police savage guns.  It's not against the law to expand the term to include all police-owned savages but it's pointless.

Some guys will have a Savage that has a 150,000 serial number and say it's a "savage commercial" even if it's got british proof marks on it. Because they feel it's "just like" a savage commercial.

Going back and forth on this for about 6 months or so, I also came to the conclusion that I really didn't want a collector type of gun out of concerns about damaging it during shooting.   I wanted a more "traditional" 1928 vs. an M1 (even though M1s represent a better pricepoint) and resisted the siren-song of the much more value priced 1928 West Hurleys.

I don't have any information on if all the internals are Savage or if the grip frame  matches the receiver.  I went in expecting that nothing will match but if the grip frame matches and the parts are all savage that's just a bonus.    

Ultimately since it already took the  NAC branding on the receiver nobody is really going to care  it all the parts are all original to the gun or not ("original" meaning came from the wartime or Colt factory original, not what Numrich assembled a decade later)  If something croaks on the gun and I have to replace it the history/provenance isn't really damaged.

Once it gets to me I will take some detailed pics of everything and post it up to see what the consensus is.

Anybody have any idea on what the drum is based off what you can se?  Repo, WW2, etc. or what its worth?  I know jack-shit about Thompson drums.

This might help ................

I would advise getting an account on machinegunboards.com and asking there

they are the Thompson fanatics

might as well cut out the middleman and go right to the source

if that is a WWII drum, it's worth like $500 or so

if that is a colt drum, it's worth $2500+

if it's a west hurley it's worth bbbbrrrrrttttttttt (fart sound)


If you get a chance to buy an M1 or M1A1, go for it

from a technical standpoint, the m1/m1a1 version is the better war weapon, simpler and stronger

Enjoyed the link to the mags...

This appears to be a Bridgeport drum, and if the back also has the "U" stamp, it for sure is. WW2 vintage. I have one just like it. They go from as low as $450 to $700 depending on condition. Really pristine condition might get more.

At first all the drums look alike. However, if you look closely at the photos on machinegunboards.com, you'll see the subtle differences.

My Bridgeport drum:

Thanks,

Another picture I have of the drum definitely shows a "U" stamp like you mentioned.  I have been looking over the machinegun board site and there are a crapload of drum variation and  as you mentioned they all look 90% alike.

The only drum I have in my possession right now  is a Chinese repro drum I bought years ago as part of my collection of "high cap mags that might get banned in the future, but I may want to own that machinegun one day".  

My faith on whether that drum will work out of the box isn't super high, so it nice to know that the drum coming with the gun is most likely not a repo but an actual WW2 model.

Went and looked and have one just like yours, with the "U" stamp.

Also have a 5 of the Valentine Mfg made ones in 50 and 100 rds. I noticed from the instruction sheet in the various Valentine boxes that they were located in Hurley, Mass.

I wonder if the Valentines are still made and the co is in business?


The Valentine ones have the Thompson trademark stamp, with the 'bullet' oval with "Thompson" inside, "Trademark" above...

And "Reg. US. Pat. Off." under.

I wonder if they were licensed to do this?


It's likely I still have the invoices where I ordered these at various times decades ago...

"The only drum I have in my possession right now is a Chinese repro drum I bought years ago as part of my collection of "high cap mags that might get banned in the future, but I may want to own that machinegun one day".

My faith on whether that drum will work out of the box isn't super high, so it nice to know that the drum coming with the gun is most likely not a repo but an actual WW2 model."


The Chinese (from Taiwan) drums have a generally good reputation as a rather well done reverse engineering of the WWII Crosby drum, though it is recommended that they get the rotation shaft greased before use.  I had one and it worked very well in the '28 I had at the time.  I later sold the '28 and had the drum modified for use in the M1A1 that I also owned, and the drum worked well there also.  When I sold the M1A1, the drum was part of the package.

MHO, YMMV, etc.

I bought a West Hurley M1 new in 1984 and it was well finished and shot extremely well.  Loved that gun.

 
I just bought one...

 

TSMG L drum modified for M1/M1A1:

That gun sure looks familiar....

ad for sale

I really really really need something like that for my M1........

Well she is pretty.

Where does one look for a m1 converted drum?


And the important part, what does it cost???

Will M1's take a drum...

Thought WW2 M1's were made cheaper to not have that feature and the drums were pretty much replaced w/ 30 rounder's for reliability and speed of reloading issues with the drums, in a combat environment.

Merle F. Bitikofer
[email protected] **Remove NO SPAM
224 N. W. Woods Ln.
Dallas, Or 97338

did the conversion in the photos about 10 years ago.  I don't know if he's still doing them.  Customer furnishes a drum and a sacrificial stick mag body.  The back rib/body shell and lip sections are cut from the stick mag and welded to the drum.  Clearance cuts are made in the drum support ribs.  I don't recall the cost, but as the photos show, the work was exceptional.

I bought a West Hurley M1 new in 1984 and it was well finished and shot extremely well.  Loved that gun.

 
Thanks I just sent him an email!!!

Basically, they took the original Thompson design and simplified it.  By simplifying it, they improved it.  It ended up as a much better weapon, with less bling bling

To answer your question, the drum was not liked by combat troops because it was too heavy and bulky to carry and it rattled too much.  So it was replaced with 30 round stick mags.

The 21 and 28 models have a two slots cut in the top of the mag well to accept the drum, this was omitted on the M1 model.

Call him- Merle is old school.

He makes a fantastic 22lr conversion kit for FA Thompsons.  Uses Black Dog magazines and it actually runs.

You must have one.