I have an itch for another MG and there are only maybe 4 I would be interested in, FAL, M16, M2 Carbine or a Thompson.

I think M16s are just overpriced and maybe they are priced right for people that shoot a ton or only plan to have one MG.   FALs are damn expensive to shoot and M2s get a rap for being too fragile.   And the design as a MG was not the most robust to begin with.

That leaves a Thomson, I am seeing guns in the 15 to 18k range.   I assume they are all commercials in this price range, however I see some that are C&R.  I didn't realize Auto Ordnance was making guns that long ago, are the old ones considered better than the newer ones?   Are they durable?

Machinegunboards.com

Readers Digest version. Much more info at the previously mentioned boards.

The C&R guns below $20k are going to be West Hurley NY guns made in the 70s till the ban in 1986.

Or WW2 DWATs which have been re-WATTed.

WW2 guns will be Bridgeport CT guns by AutoOrdnance or Savage.

If you want to use drums it has to be a 1928a1  type gun, or earlier.

The M1 or M1A1 only take stick mags

Many WH guns will need work to avoid tearing themselves apart.

WW2 guns in the $20k-$25k range (unmolested) are probably the best value.

The ones made by Colt in 1921-1922 will be the most expensive, $30k-$75k and up.

Original finish and matching numbers  adds cost, history.

Not uncommon to have refinished WW2 guns with non-matching receiver and trigger frames.

Tracie Hill's Ultimate Thompson book is a great one to have.

Only 15,000 commercial Colt 1921/28's were made, so they will be a premium.

Another category are NAC guns. These were guns built on WWII receivers/parts after Numrich acquired Auto Ordnance in the early 1950"s. They usually go from about $19K to $23K depending on markings and matching numbers.

Here's my Auto Ordnance Bridgeport 1928-A1 NAC gun ...............  replaced the original forearm with a vertical ...............

All West Hurley guns were classified as C&R by ATF.....in their 11 year run from 75-86, they only made 3219 transferrable 1928's and 609 M1's......

I dont have info on Thompsons.

But FWIW i wouldnt pass of the M16 so quickly, they really are fun guns and you probably can get one for around the same price if not cheaper than a Thompson.

I'm wouldn't pass one up for the right price, I have a potential deal on a Sendra.   However, when you consider the rarity and historical background of a Thompson, they seem better priced than an M16.  

Parts. It is a lot easier to get parts for an m16 than a Thompson.

This is true.

Also its a issue of supply and demand. While the supply of Thompsons is much smaller than that of the M16, the demand for the much more modern, versatile and modular M16 is WAY higher. And with the ever growing popularity of the AR15 and the Military's lack of interest to replace it, the M16 may be 50+ years old but gets treated like its brand new firearms technology.

But buy what YOU want, not what some random person on the internet tells you.

As a former Thompson owner, might I recommend you actually shoot one first........

The rate of fire is going to be higher than you thought it would be, the ergonomics (especially with the VFG) are going to take some getting used to (especially if you have shorter arms)

I want to think my '21A weighed about 22 pounds with a loaded C drum......

Nice '21 Colts are honestly becoming too valuable to shoot......a squib round in that original barrel could ruin your day, and devalue your gun as much as the cost of a transferrable M-11/9.......

An AO or Savage 28A1 would be my #1 pic, followed by a GI M1/M1A1, then WH M1, and finally WH '28 (rebuilt with all GI parts)......

 
Why the WH M1 over the WH 28?


I like the lines of the 28, but Non-WH are a little pricy...

From my research on the issue is that one of the biggest (and most expensive/challenging) issues with the 1928 West Hurleys to fix are the Blish Lock cuts in the receiver.   There are only a handful of people in the US like Paul Krogh  who can bring the blish lock channels on the 1928 west hurleys back in spec.  The timeframe to get these fixed by a reputable smith can be measured in years as well and isn't cheap.

These not 100% spec blish cutouts are what cause West Hurley to "eat themselves" over time.

M1s don't have blish locks on the bolts nor cutouts on the receiver since they are just straight blow back so this isn't an issue with the West Hurley M1s.

Totally agree with you that the 1928s have much nice "lines" and its soooooo tempting to buy a WH 1928.  Then reality sets in and I know I should buy a wartime M1, but I know I just wont be happy with it.  So I continue to debate back and forth.

Ultimately I think I will end up with a NAC 1928 if one pops up for the right price and is cosmetically in good shape.  Ruben has one now for like $28K, but I just cant bring myself to spend 28K on a NAC Thompson even if the receiver is a Savage or a Bridgeport.

 
Blish Lock, I forgot that they were removed from the M1 ver of the rifle.



Tex once again thank you for the info.

I paid $19.5K for my Auto Ordnance Bridgeport NAC 1928-A1 - came with a repro drum, 4 stick mags and a couple of period mag pouches.

I have since acquired a new-in-wrapper WWII L-drum and some original Auto Ordnance mags in addition to a repro FBI case.

Great shape cosmetically, but lacks military markings.

I'm on PK's (Pal Koch) long list to have it spruced up - when my number comes up, I'll let him decide how to rework it, etc .....

I remember looking at that one about 6 months ago as well. Ruben had another NAC gun for 23Kish a couple months back as well.

David currently has another 1928 for a good price but the duracoat comment on it scares me since who knows what problems could be hiding under that paint.  It also has a smooth vs. finned barrel and a peep vs. lyman site.   I guess all of that could be changed out, along with a refinish to make it more 1928ish.

There's a lengthy thread on that gun over on "MachinegunBoards.com".

Here it is .......

Ouch that was a bit ugly.

I guess I was not the only one who though the description vs. the condition was a bit off and concerned about what the duracoat may be hiding.

I assume that is why its still for sale 3 months later

Decide what you want. Then dive in....So much history to the Thompsons.

You nailed it......WH M1's don't have any of the issues the WH 28's have, they are actually quite nicely finished, and in the grand scheme of things, the rarest TSMG variant manufactured ( Savage 1928 Commercials and original Colt 1927 Semi's aside).....

I'll probably never be able to afford a 1921 Colt again (bought mine in 1991.....sold it in '98), but when the house is paid off, I'm going to find a 1928A Savage commercial......has the looks and quality of finish of a '21 Colt, the lower rate of fire of a '28, and is cheaper because of the lack of "Colt" on the receiver.......just keep your eyes open for a Savage '28 with a New York instead of Bridgeport addy on the receiver, and '21 style patent mark locations.........

West Hurley Thompsons are basically junky guns and all have various "issues".

Some will run fine out of the box but most do not.

The M1 models are not immune even though they have no blish lock.  People report that the mag well is dimensionally off and they have feeding problems.

Many WH M1 owners tinkered around with their M1 for a few years and then sent it off to PK to have it trued up.


WH Thompsons make a great shooter once they are re-machined by PK and have all the parts replaced by USGI parts.

Until that is done, it is hit and miss.

Definitely buy a WH if the price is right, but figure another $3500 or so to get it up to USGI specs.

Once you pile on the $3500, you're better off saving another couple Gs for a USGI gun or an NAC.


From a collecting standpoint, WH Thompsons are shooters only, they have no collector value.

The rarity of a WH M1 means nothing to collectors.  Don't forget that all Thompsons are rare.

Gun collecting value comes from a romantic view of the past, the gun is looked at as an artifact of a bygone period.

The pre-1945 Thompsons are considered the "real" Thompsons by collectors, they have the romantic historical appeal.

The NAC put-together guns are not collectable per se but they were made in the 50s from leftover original Thompson receivers so they sort of grab the tail of the pre-45 kite.

WHs are a badly made knockoff from the 1970s, they are not really considered "real" Thompsons and they are not respected for craftsmanship.


I'm not trying to bad-mouth west hurleys, but I think that the new guys have pushed the price of these shiny, pretty WHs up so high that they aren't worth buying unless you can get a screaming deal on them.

A lot of guys will bid a WH up to 18K because it looks nice and not realize that it's minty looking because nobody could get it running.

=======================

As far as buying a USGI M1 or M1A1 goes, I think these are the most undervalued and under-appreciated machineguns on the market.

Most people don't understand that the original 21 and 28 Thompsons were overbuilt.

When they stripped down the Thompson to make the M1A1 model, they did a bona-fide product improvement.

For example, the ladder sight on the 28 Thompson is basically useless.  It's an expensive, fancy waste of time.  People use the bolt handle for sighting the gun.

The peep sight on the M1A1, on the other hand, is perfect.

The M1 models are much more rugged and useful guns, they're just not as fancy, and gun collectors like fancy.


If you think about it, an M1 or M1A1 is the ultimate WWII collector gun.  They have the same utilitarian ruggedness as an Garand or M1 Carbine, and the same pedigree.

If you held an M1 next to any other WWII subgun, there would be no comparison, it is a fantastically well designed and well made gun.

Anyway, I bought a USGI M1A1 because the price was good, and I quickly decided I would never sell it, it's a bad-ass masterpiece from the old school wood and iron days.

I'm not saying this just because I own one, I own a 28 as well.

Keep looking dude

Lots of bad rewelds and poorly done re-watts out there

a coat of paint = avoid

These guns are so expensive now that it's not really worth buying a mutt.

You could get a minty arsenal rebuilt USGI M1A1 in the high teens or low 20s and have a piece of history that will run like a top (until you go broke buying 45 ammo)

The Traci Hill "Ultimate Thompson" book states that he believes that NAC guns with "NAC" as the suffix to the S/N were complete guns that were acquired during the Numrich acquisition while guns with "NAC" as the prefix were parts guns.

Mine is AOxxxxxxNAC and the lower (frame) is Colt while the rest of the guns is AO/Bridgeport, so I don't know.

The very very early Savage 28s were built with a smattering of colt parts, probably just to use up the colt spare parts inventory.

It's impossible to say where the parts on an NAC gun would have come from.

I cannot picture that they were still dipping into colt spare parts inventory when they started making AO guns.

I'm picturing they found a colt frame under a desk when the leftovers were crated up and sold to numrich

Mine's an AO/Bridgeport.

Did any of the early ones come with Colt parts?

Of course my S/N is AO134xxx, so it would be late?

Just wondering if it might have been a fully assembled gun when Numrich got it.

It might have been fully assembled when Numrich got it, but I'm thinking that the Colt grip frame just happened to wind up on the gun somehow.

Could have been at any point in time from 1945 until you bought it.

AFAIK, the guns that were assembled with a smattering of Colt spare parts were the very early Savage 28s, say the first 2,000 made in the first two months of production starting April 1940.

I have seen guns in the S-16,000 to S-17,500 with colt buttstocks, grips and some internals.  

The first 2,000 guns were a British order, so almost all of those guns are gone forever.  The only guns you generally see from that time period are the fabled "Savage Commercials", which are about 100 guns that were plucked out of the British order and sent to US police departments, all under serial no. S-25000.

If your gun was a Savage Commercial with a serial number under S-25000, I would think the grip frame was a colt spare part used for the original assembly.

Since yours was made years later at a different plant AO plant, I would say it's not the original grip frame put on the gun on the assembly line.

That's my guess

Why not post some pics of your NAC over on machinegunboards.com?

Those guys are truly Thompson fanatics, they know everything there is to know

I really have to chuckle at the "West Hurley" hate.
Go here to get a college degree in the Thompson SMG:

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showforum=3


The Colt's are the original top tier models, market price reflects this, really not shooters because of value/rarity.

WWII models are govt contract copy, second tier, condition varies on these, good shooters, price varies

WH model is a reproduction(70's), third tier, condition typically VG on these, good shooters, lower entry price.

There is no West Hurley hate here.

Everyone who is knowledgeable about Thompsons knows exactly what WHs are and what they aren't.

They are capable of being good shooters once their bad parts are replaced with USGI and dimensional receiver problems are fixed.

They are not a well made gun and they generally do not run well without tweaking.

They have lots and lots of usefulness as shooters and zero usefulness as a historical collector item.


I own a Vector UZI, I had to send it to an UZI smith to get the trunnion and rear plate welds redone.

Does that make me a Vector hater?  

I have and the consensus over there is that it's a parts gun.

Do you own a WH Thompson? What work was needed?

 

Ok, you're right, I take it all back.

WHs run great right out of the box, they do not need gunsmithing or a USGI parts kit, and are looked upon as rare collectables by Thompson collectors.

Furthermore, PK has a 4 year waiting list to re-work WHs because he only works 5 minutes a day, not because there is a stack of 200 WH guns for him to plow through.

There, all better.

Yea.....that's what I thought.

 

Yeah, I got your point already.

You're not going to address my comments with fact and logic and construct a reasonable argument to refute them.  

You're just going to keep saying over and over that I need to own a WH before I can make a few easily verified statements about them.

You would be making a valid argument per the standards of GD but this is a tech forum and people are interested in information, not bickering.


To answer your question, I owned a WH that was absolutely perfect looking, in mint condition.  

The reason that it looked that nice was because it wouldn't run and the previous owner gave up on shooting it.

So I went on the internet and did lots and lots and lots of research, especially on the machinegunboards.com website.

I probably read 95% of what exists on the internet about WH Thompsons.


I tallied up the price of re-working my 28 and it was about $3500 to do it right.

When I added the cost of the re-work to the price I paid for the gun, it was within a couple 1000 of the price of the lower priced USGI guns like the 28A1 and M1 models.

Do the math:  $17,500 + $3,500 = $21,000.

So I sold the WH and bought USGI.

If I had bought the gun back when they were $2000 or even $8000, I would have sunk the money into fixing it up and walked away contented.


Why was I so dead set on getting the gun re-worked?  Because I absolutely despise owning any semi auto or full auto that won't run 100%.

There are WHs that do run OK without being trued up, but the guy who runs Diamond K gunsmithing says he's never seen a stock WH that wasn't "eating itself alive."

Based on all that I've read about them, I have no reason to doubt the guy's statement.  


If you find any information at all that refutes any of what I've written into this thread, please do present it.

I've always been interested in learning more.

I am aware that PK does wonderful work rebuilding thompsons. His reputation is so good, people wait years to get his services.
I too have a WH 1928, purchased NIB in the 70's.  It has been thumping away ever since. If it was "eating itself alive" I would know it by now. The only parts I replaced were for cosmetic reasons. Your assumption that all WH guns were defective, is just that, an assumption.

thanks everyone for their input, quite a lively topic I started...   I didn't realize that so many WH guns had serious issues or it took forever to get them corrected.   Makes owning an M2 Carbine seem simple by comparison and if you break it beyond repair, well at least you can afford 3-4 more for the price of a Thompson.

The price tag and near lack of anyone that can work on them probably means I will look at something else.

I think you’re making a mistake by not getting a Thompson.

1. You have to wonder what percentage of WHs actually have problems.
It occurred to me that we actually have zero idea how many WHs run well.  
When I had my WH, I talked to gunsmiths who fix guns and I read forum posts about problem guns.
I didn’t talk to people who have good running WHs.
So who knows how many there are?

2. Why not just find a WH that runs good or one that’s already had a make-over.
Sounds like if you bought timkel's gun you’d be perfectly happy with it.
When you go to buy your WH, just make sure you get one that runs good.
My WH was an early gun that was full of USGI parts, the $3500 I estimated for tune-up was my worst case scenario.
For all I know, it just needed a new barrel or something cheap like that.
There’s nothing wrong with owning a WH if it runs good.  
It’s the same as my Vector UZI, a gun you can shoot without spoiling the collector value.

3. You might be able to find a real bargain on a Thompson.
A lot of MG sellers don’t seem to know how much they are worth.  
Since 2013, I have seen two mint WHs sell for around $13,000 and a real nice USGI M1A1 sell for $14,000.
I’m not saying you’re guaranteed to find a deal like that but it’s worth poking around.

4. Thompsons don’t need a lot of gunsmithing and it’s not hard to get them fixed.
If you want to have a WH completely done over and made into a Colt 21A replica, you’re going to have to go into the PK waiting list.
If you just want a new barrel, or a rear sight replaced, you can send the gun to Philly Ord and have the work done expertly in 2 weeks.
Even PK has a quick turn around on small and medium repairs.
The Thompson is a heavy, overbuilt gun.  It’s not a big maintenance gun, unless you need something like a rebarreling on a worn out barrel, you’ll probably never need a gunsmith.
Owning a Thompson is basically the same as owning any MG in terms of gunsmithing.
There are any number of gunsmiths that can expertly spin a new barrel on to an M16 but there are only one or two guys that can reliably re-machine a bad M16 receiver.
The guy at Philly Ordnance actually makes brand new Thompson receivers to blueprint specs on a giant industrial $200,000 CNC machine, it's not like you cannot find a good smith.


5. Buy a USGI M1 or M1A1, they are the best bargain of all MGs.  (If you want to call a 20K gun a bargain)
USGI M1 models can still be found for less than $20k.
If you think about it, an M1 type Thompson is the very best gun to own out of the common WWII collector firearms.
In terms of design, build quality, history and general badassness, no common firearm from WWII even comes close to the Thompson M1 or M1A1.
The M1 Thompson is very similar to a Garand, it’s an elegant wood and solid steel type gun but it’s very rugged.  
It’s also similar to the Garand in that it tames the recoil out of a fairly hard kicking cartridge.
It’s amazing how well the gun runs, how nice it handles and how easy it is to pour 45 slugs into a target with it.  
The closest thing to an M1A1 is the MP40 and maybe the Lanchester, but there’s no comparison.
If you ever get a chance to handle and fire an M1, they will have to pry it out of your fingers.
I’ve noticed that there has been a recent price jump with the M1/M1A1 Thompsons from around 18-19 to around 22-23.  That’s in spite of the fact that the MG market is very soft right now. So don't delay.

6. You’re going to buy a Thompson eventually, so why not just skip a step and get one.
If all you wanted was just a gun with a happy switch on the side, I would tell you to get a MAC10 and call it good.
But a Thompson is a Thompson.
A guy who wants a 1969 426 Hemi Charger is not going to be happy buying a 6 cylinder Mustang.
Also, a Thompson is one of the blue-chip grail guns like the M16, UZI, or MP5.
When you ask guys what MG they want as opposed to what they’d settle for, 90% are going to say UZI, Thompson, M16 or MP5.


My purpose in posting into this thread was to share information that should be considered when pricing guns.  

It wasn’t to chase people away from buying a Thompson.  If you can scrounge up enough money, you should go for it, there's no good reason not to.

Time for some Thompson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_4S_-cr9Rs

one more great scene

I have to get one of those 500 round L drums

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3m5l8_you-can-t-hit-albert-finney_shortfilms

That was a lot of rounds out of those 2 Thompsons...

Miller's Crossing is a great movie.

Movie MGs always hold at least 500 rounds if not more

And suppressors sound like knuckles rapping a table softly, or maybe a somebody opening a bottle of coke

Pretty decent overview of Thompson history -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRfy2GKWYUY

Did someone who bought a 1921 w/out comp, in the 1970's for abt $350...

Transferred legally with stamp...

Referenced in one of the MG books, forget which one, state police owned...

Matching SN in the VERY low 4 digits..

Get a good deal...

I'll jump on the "Buy a Thompson" bandwagon...

But I am biased:





I picked it up in July and I still can't wipe the smile off my face...... It's a Bridgeport M1 that has the M1A1 rear sight. I had bought an M1A1 parts kit years ago, so sometimes I swap out the bolt (the M1A1 being slightly slower).

My first MG and I will never look back.....

Can't wait to get my Thompson in... 3 months and counting!

haha yeah i get a kick out of movies where they fire hundreds of rounds from a single mag. Also all cars explode when shot.

I have a Savage made M1.  

I can't say I would worry much about parts breakage on a Thompson.  I did get one of those Russian sourced (matching number) parts sets years ago for it.

I got a .22lr conversion kit for it from Merle Bitikoffer and it makes the Thompson into an absolute giggle machine.  The kit is very nicely made.  It has a barrel that fits down into the .45ACP barrel.  The bolt is steel where it makes contact with any wear surfaces and aluminum where it needs to be.  The bolt has a separate firing pin/hammer on it (like an M1 bolt).  The magazines are 30rd and are made by Black Dog.

Naturally I got the .22lr conversion kit during the great .22lr shortage, but I have always had perfect timing.

If you have a Thompson you NEED one of these kits.  

Are they still available?

Merle is an old school guy.  It is best to contact him via phone:
MERLE F. BITIKOFER.  224 N. W.
WOODS LN., DALLAS, OR 97338.  (503) 623-8294

Thank you!