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Posted: 9/13/2015 8:25:36 PM EDT
[#1]
My Norrell 10/22 was a trigger group and a bolt.
It was a machinegun. The slide would thefore be the machinegun. Just like a lightening link is a machinegun |
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Posted: 9/13/2015 9:04:51 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My Norrell 10/22 was a trigger group and a bolt. It was a machinegun. The slide would thefore be the machinegun. Just like a lightening link is a machinegun So where does ATF draw the line? The HK trigger groups aren't machineguns, the Glock drop-in sears aren't machineguns, and you can own every piece of an M16 fire control group as long as you don't have an extra pin hole in your receiver... They sure do a great job of complicating everything. |
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Posted: 9/13/2015 9:42:27 PM EDT
[#3]
The Glock selctor is a machine gun by itself. If the HK trigger pack isn't because it won't fit on a semi reciever (there is a shelf on the reciever to prevent it). The M16 parts installed in an Ar15 have been classified as a machine gun even without the sear hole by ATF.
The clearest definition that answers your question is an conversion device is a machine gun. Glock sear, AR DIAS, lighting link, Slotted Uzi bolt, ect. |
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Posted: 9/13/2015 10:44:10 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
If I were to modify Glock or Lone Wolf slides with the proper machining to add a Glock 18 selector (that I will also manufacture), how would that be classified? Considering the fact that the slide isn't considered a firearm and some companies already offer the Glock drop-in sears as a non-NFA item ... could I manufacture the slides and offer them with the modified trigger housing/trigger bar for sale as a non-registered item? I know that the default answer is "contact ATF" but I'm hoping someone here has a preliminary answer. That may be your point of confusion. Those are machine gun conversion devices, and must be registered as machineguns. Most of the ones that are for sale are no complete. Same deal as a AR15 DIAS or lighting link, both are considered machineguns in their own right. |
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Posted: 9/13/2015 10:47:35 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That may be your point of confusion. Those are machine gun conversion devices, and must be registered as machineguns. Most of the ones that are for sale are no complete. Same deal as a AR15 DIAS or lighting link, both are considered machineguns in their own right. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If I were to modify Glock or Lone Wolf slides with the proper machining to add a Glock 18 selector (that I will also manufacture), how would that be classified? Considering the fact that the slide isn't considered a firearm and some companies already offer the Glock drop-in sears as a non-NFA item ... could I manufacture the slides and offer them with the modified trigger housing/trigger bar for sale as a non-registered item? I know that the default answer is "contact ATF" but I'm hoping someone here has a preliminary answer. That may be your point of confusion. Those are machine gun conversion devices, and must be registered as machineguns. Most of the ones that are for sale are no complete. Same deal as a AR15 DIAS or lighting link, both are considered machineguns in their own right. Shit, you're right. I forgot that the drop-in sears are sold as 80% complete. No biggie, I'm fine registering each slide. I just wanted to make sure I was right in my thinking that they'd need to be serialized and whatnot. |
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Posted: 9/14/2015 8:45:10 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Shit, you're right. I forgot that the drop-in sears are sold as 80% complete. No biggie, I'm fine registering each slide. I just wanted to make sure I was right in my thinking that they'd need to be serialized and whatnot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If I were to modify Glock or Lone Wolf slides with the proper machining to add a Glock 18 selector (that I will also manufacture), how would that be classified? Considering the fact that the slide isn't considered a firearm and some companies already offer the Glock drop-in sears as a non-NFA item ... could I manufacture the slides and offer them with the modified trigger housing/trigger bar for sale as a non-registered item? I know that the default answer is "contact ATF" but I'm hoping someone here has a preliminary answer. That may be your point of confusion. Those are machine gun conversion devices, and must be registered as machineguns. Most of the ones that are for sale are no complete. Same deal as a AR15 DIAS or lighting link, both are considered machineguns in their own right. Shit, you're right. I forgot that the drop-in sears are sold as 80% complete. No biggie, I'm fine registering each slide. I just wanted to make sure I was right in my thinking that they'd need to be serialized and whatnot. I'm confused. You understand that nobody can build a transferable machine gun since 1986 correct. |
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Posted: 9/14/2015 9:26:01 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm confused. You understand that nobody can build a transferable machine gun since 1986 correct. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If I were to modify Glock or Lone Wolf slides with the proper machining to add a Glock 18 selector (that I will also manufacture), how would that be classified? Considering the fact that the slide isn't considered a firearm and some companies already offer the Glock drop-in sears as a non-NFA item ... could I manufacture the slides and offer them with the modified trigger housing/trigger bar for sale as a non-registered item? I know that the default answer is "contact ATF" but I'm hoping someone here has a preliminary answer. That may be your point of confusion. Those are machine gun conversion devices, and must be registered as machineguns. Most of the ones that are for sale are no complete. Same deal as a AR15 DIAS or lighting link, both are considered machineguns in their own right. Shit, you're right. I forgot that the drop-in sears are sold as 80% complete. No biggie, I'm fine registering each slide. I just wanted to make sure I was right in my thinking that they'd need to be serialized and whatnot. I'm confused. You understand that nobody can build a transferable machine gun since 1986 correct. |
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Posted: 9/15/2015 1:13:38 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pretty sure he is an 07FFL/02SOT. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If I were to modify Glock or Lone Wolf slides with the proper machining to add a Glock 18 selector (that I will also manufacture), how would that be classified? Considering the fact that the slide isn't considered a firearm and some companies already offer the Glock drop-in sears as a non-NFA item ... could I manufacture the slides and offer them with the modified trigger housing/trigger bar for sale as a non-registered item? I know that the default answer is "contact ATF" but I'm hoping someone here has a preliminary answer. That may be your point of confusion. Those are machine gun conversion devices, and must be registered as machineguns. Most of the ones that are for sale are no complete. Same deal as a AR15 DIAS or lighting link, both are considered machineguns in their own right. Shit, you're right. I forgot that the drop-in sears are sold as 80% complete. No biggie, I'm fine registering each slide. I just wanted to make sure I was right in my thinking that they'd need to be serialized and whatnot. I'm confused. You understand that nobody can build a transferable machine gun since 1986 correct. This. I'll be building these for LE sales/demo purposes for other SOTs because Glock doesn't sell G18's to dealers... they're agency-direct apparently. |
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Posted: 9/15/2015 7:42:14 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
If I were to modify Glock or Lone Wolf slides with the proper machining to add a Glock 18 selector (that I will also manufacture), how would that be classified? Considering the fact that the slide isn't considered a firearm and some companies already offer the Glock drop-in sears as a non-NFA item... could I manufacture the slides and offer them with the modified trigger housing/trigger bar for sale as a non-registered item? I know that the default answer is "contact ATF" but I'm hoping someone here has a preliminary answer. ' They are machine guns if you make those mods. |
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Posted: 9/15/2015 7:43:57 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The HK trigger groups aren't machineguns, the Glock drop-in sears aren't machineguns, and you can own every piece of an M16 fire control group as long as you don't have an extra pin hole in your receiver... HK trigger groups can be machine guns, Glock Drop Sears are machine guns. If you are a new FFL you may want slow down before you start making unregistered MGs. |
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Posted: 9/15/2015 7:46:25 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No biggie, I'm fine registering each slide. I just wanted to make sure I was right in my thinking that they'd need to be serialized and whatnot. Even if you make/register slide, you will later have to make/register the lower. To make a factory style G18 you need to modify upper and lower. Thus making slides is a bad idea, modify complete guns and register a single item. |
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Posted: 9/16/2015 10:57:28 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Even if you make/register slide, you will later have to make/register the lower. To make a factory style G18 you need to modify upper and lower. Thus making slides is a bad idea, modify complete guns and register a single item. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No biggie, I'm fine registering each slide. I just wanted to make sure I was right in my thinking that they'd need to be serialized and whatnot. Even if you make/register slide, you will later have to make/register the lower. To make a factory style G18 you need to modify upper and lower. Thus making slides is a bad idea, modify complete guns and register a single item. Lower mods aren't necessary, only the trigger housing needs modification along with the trigger bar. I'm not going to dick around with the frame rails since that was just a CYA move by Glock to keep folks from easily swapping slides around. I get what you're saying though and I'll probably just make them complete to simplify things. I know you're a bit of a full-auto Glock guru... do you have a factory 18? |
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Posted: 9/16/2015 11:00:05 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you are a new FFL you may want slow down before you start making unregistered MGs. Discussing ideas and seeking information is how I avoid that, obviously, but thanks for the advice. |
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Posted: 9/16/2015 11:02:35 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lower mods aren't necessary, only the trigger housing needs modification along with the trigger bar. Well I am not going to argue with you over it. I know on my factory Glock 18C the lower is different. |
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Posted: 9/16/2015 11:15:35 AM EDT
[#15]
eta
if you want to see it or take pics I will be at nuts2015 |
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Posted: 9/16/2015 11:26:03 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well I am not going to argue with you over it. I know on my factory Glock 18C the lower is different. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Lower mods aren't necessary, only the trigger housing needs modification along with the trigger bar. Well I am not going to argue with you over it. I know on my factory Glock 18C the lower is different. I wasn't arguing that the factory G18 frame isn't different. I was just pointing out that modifying the frame isn't necessary for proper function. The main required changes are in the trigger housing and trigger bar, as I'm sure you know. Thanks for the offer to see it at NUTS but I'm headed to New Braunfels this weekend. We'll have to meet at some point since you're in the DFW area. I could use your input on some of my ideas. |
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Posted: 9/16/2015 11:37:14 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wasn't arguing that the factory G18 frame isn't different. I was just pointing out that modifying the frame isn't necessary for proper function. The main required changes are in the trigger housing and trigger bar, as I'm sure you know. Thanks for the offer to see it at NUTS but I'm headed to New Braunfels this weekend. We'll have to meet at some point since you're in the DFW area. I could use your input on some of my ideas. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Lower mods aren't necessary, only the trigger housing needs modification along with the trigger bar. Well I am not going to argue with you over it. I know on my factory Glock 18C the lower is different. I wasn't arguing that the factory G18 frame isn't different. I was just pointing out that modifying the frame isn't necessary for proper function. The main required changes are in the trigger housing and trigger bar, as I'm sure you know. Thanks for the offer to see it at NUTS but I'm headed to New Braunfels this weekend. We'll have to meet at some point since you're in the DFW area. I could use your input on some of my ideas. I think you will have to see it to understand. There is not enough room. That is why most conversions use the other side. Using the other side requires zero mods and thus reduces the number of conversion parts. |
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Posted: 9/16/2015 11:45:25 AM EDT
[#18]
I'm just interested in seeing the pics!
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Posted: 9/16/2015 12:11:11 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think you will have to see it to understand. There is not enough room. That is why most conversions use the other side. Using the other side requires zero mods and thus reduces the number of conversion parts. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Lower mods aren't necessary, only the trigger housing needs modification along with the trigger bar. Well I am not going to argue with you over it. I know on my factory Glock 18C the lower is different. I wasn't arguing that the factory G18 frame isn't different. I was just pointing out that modifying the frame isn't necessary for proper function. The main required changes are in the trigger housing and trigger bar, as I'm sure you know. Thanks for the offer to see it at NUTS but I'm headed to New Braunfels this weekend. We'll have to meet at some point since you're in the DFW area. I could use your input on some of my ideas. I think you will have to see it to understand. There is not enough room. That is why most conversions use the other side. Using the other side requires zero mods and thus reduces the number of conversion parts.  Ultimately, as long as the selector switch pushes down the trigger bar, the magic should happen. Little nuances can be worked around. |
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Posted: 9/16/2015 3:43:48 PM EDT
[#20]
Wasn't there some sort of sear thing you could just attach to the back of the slide that made it auto, instead of having to mess with the lower, the trigger, mill the slide, etc.?
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Posted: 9/16/2015 3:46:18 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wasn't there some sort of sear thing you could just attach to the back of the slide that made it auto, instead of having to mess with the lower, the trigger, mill the slide, etc.? Yes, that is the most common conversion. Got one of those too. Aspix show it trips on right side: 
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Posted: 9/16/2015 4:33:10 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wasn't there some sort of sear thing you could just attach to the back of the slide that made it auto, instead of having to mess with the lower, the trigger, mill the slide, etc.? Yes, but some dealers (like myself) prefer a factory-style Glock 18 and they're extremely hard to get. I was a machinist for most of my life so the milling is simple. |
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Posted: 9/17/2015 12:51:40 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, but some dealers (like myself) prefer a factory-style Glock 18 and they're extremely hard to get. I was a machinist for most of my life so the milling is simple. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Wasn't there some sort of sear thing you could just attach to the back of the slide that made it auto, instead of having to mess with the lower, the trigger, mill the slide, etc.? Yes, but some dealers (like myself) prefer a factory-style Glock 18 and they're extremely hard to get. I was a machinist for most of my life so the milling is simple. Makes sense. I just wasn't sure if I remembered that type of conversion correctly or not. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 11:48:21 AM EDT
[#24]
subscribing for future pictures of homework.
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Posted: 10/6/2015 1:12:45 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So where does ATF draw the line? The HK trigger groups aren't machineguns, the Glock drop-in sears aren't machineguns, and you can own every piece of an M16 fire control group as long as you don't have an extra pin hole in your receiver... They sure do a great job of complicating everything. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
My Norrell 10/22 was a trigger group and a bolt. It was a machinegun. The slide would thefore be the machinegun. Just like a lightening link is a machinegun So where does ATF draw the line? The HK trigger groups aren't machineguns, the Glock drop-in sears aren't machineguns, and you can own every piece of an M16 fire control group as long as you don't have an extra pin hole in your receiver... They sure do a great job of complicating everything. I think the ATFs new standard is that there is no standard |
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Posted: 10/7/2015 3:17:24 PM EDT
[#26]
You should probably take a look at a thread over at silencertalk.......
User "Palladium" details about 5 different types of glock conversion units, including a modded slide with G-18 style selector...doesn't require any frame mods......details on pg. 8 of the thread http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=7782&sid=4deeb2f7db19acfd16c1ad955c367efb&start=175 |
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