Whats the deal with the Alliance Armament sabre 556 upper?

I found info from 2013ish and really nothing newer.....
Is this still happening/happened?

Can you get them, will you be able to get them?
Mac10, M11/9?

If not, anyone else working on rifle caliber uppers for the MAC's?

A small run was made and the new owners of Alliance Armament discontinued all MAC upper support.  Uzitalk has a good MAC forum where this stuff is discussed.  There allegedly was a belt fed version in the works.

No other publically announced rifle caliber uppers are in the works to my knowledge.

FWIW I've got two, and they both work fine.  Needs an access hole drilled in the back of each M10 frame and an AR stock adapter and assembly.  You can then run the pistol uppers either stock, or with a rod attachment as a slow fire conversion using the spring in the AR stock.

If Alliance isn't making them anymore, you'll need to find one used somewhere.

ETA pic

Thanks guys, that clears that up.

Also, any word on a Lage .22 conversion for the Mac10?  Or any other non modifying Mac 10 .22 conversion?



Oh and badass Circuits!

For the Mac 10 you would have to contact Sam at Practical Solutions. There is one in the works but not out yet.

Glad to hear it.  Thanks for the info man!

Was on the list to get one and never heard anything back.

I called Lage one time and pestered Richard to make one.

What a shame.  

Wasn't the belt feed poo poo'd by the atf since would of fired from open bolt?

I'm not sure they even got far enough for a submission.  Other similar uppers have been rejected for that reason though  (e.g. Len Savage's PKM based upper)

No, there were some earlier beltfed uppers that were disapproved because they could be fired without even being installed on a lower receiver. The SABRE got around that by requiring a hole to be drilled in the lower for an op-rod. Theoretically you could do the same with a beltfed upper, and it's only a matter of time before someone does it.

Yep, there's a LOT of worry however that ATF will renege and decide after the fact that they don't allow any of these uppers. It's been a trend that they don't mind subguns staying pistol caliber, but as soon as you start going bigger (rifle) they get antsy.
Either way, for 5k and another 2-3k for a beltfed upper, I'm in. Like stupid in. You can't get a beltfed full auto for anywhere near that price. And if I have to get rid of it, I'll chalk it up to a gambling loss, like everything else is in the NFA world.

$2,000-$3,000 for a beltfed upper for a MAC family of RR would be a pipe dream.  There are lots of small parts and springs involved with a belt fed.  Tolerances pile up, so there needs to be more precision.  The S.A.B.R.E. price point would be a reasonable place to start for the basic upper.  Valkyrie Armaments had a belt fed conversion for the AR-15/M16 family of firearms.  That belt fed conversion uses modified M27 links.  Originally, send in a working AR and the belt fed conversion was $2,800.   So I would think a belt fed conversion for the MAC family would be more like $5,000.  But still $10,000 for a transferable belt fed 5.56X45 machine gun is less than the $12,000 for a MM23E clone let alone the $25,000 for an HK sear and about the same as a Shrike without the $15,000 off brand transferable M16 RR.

As a Valkyrie Armaments conversion owner, belt feeds are some expensive to feed.  I could spend two or three hours to shoot 1,000 rounds through a couple of machineguns.  This is a video of my wife shooting 500 rds in one pull:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="RFcxuOzsoXA?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFcxuOzsoXA

That is a $200 minute.  It would be easy to shoot five 200 rd SAW boxes in ten minutes.  It certainly isn't something I shoot every time I go out, but is so controllable that my son could shoot it when he was three years old.  YMMV.

Scott

08/15 Maxims can be found in the $8-$10k range easily.

with the mass proliferation of workable drums and coffin mags in 5.56mm, does a belt fed in 5.56mm really have that much appeal?   Yeah if it was $5k, sure why not...   But $5k for a MAC and then another $5k for a belt fed upper that may or may not be garbage, not so much...

While you might be able to buy a transferable 08/15 in that range that is definitely a project just to get such a gun to the range, set up, shoot it, break it  down and get it home.  There is also the cost of shooting it.  Full size rifle rounds aren't cheap.  Most full power rifle rounds are about twice the money of 5.56X45.  There is 7.62X54R which is in the ball park of 5.56X45.  There is also the issue of transporting such a massive belt feed water cooled machinegun.  A lot of ranges there is a distance from where you part to where you shoot.  Some places you can pull right up.  Others have designated parking and you lug what you need to the range.  It would be a struggle for most guys to lug the gun and all the rest of the stuff needed to run the gun from the car to the actual spot on the range.  The water cooled gun, water to cool it, tripod, and belted ammo might be a challenge to get into a VW bug or other small car.  There is also the issue of a range that is okay with belt fed full power rifle round full auto use.  And there is also the issue of time.  I wouldn't think most owners of an 08/15 would not think, I have an hour after work to kill.  Why not throw the 08/15 in the car and run a couple belts.  Yes these guns will handle an incredible amount of sustained full auto fire.  But they aren't a pull up to the range and be shooting in five minutes type of gun.  I would also think very few owners would wish to lug all that stuff to the range to shoot for 30 minutes.  With my water cooled upper, that is not something I'd take for a quick 1/2 hour shooting session.  My MGI upper with three barrels would be.  My brother lives in the DC area.  The nearest full auto outdoor range is 1.5 hours away from his home.  Most indoor ranges wouldn't accommodate an 08/15 in one of their bays.  But a shoulder fired belt fed would be much more likely.



As the owner of five Beta C 5.56 AR drums and a Valkyrie Armaments belt feed conversion, there is a world of difference between a Beta C and a belt fed.  Are the Beta C drums fun?  Sure they are.  But the belt fed is only limited as to the size and the weight of the ammo box I wish to put under it.  At $250 each that is $1,250 just in the Beta C mags.  Each mag represents about 22 seconds of full auto fun.  Once the Beta C mags are empty, I need to load them.  I've got several thousand links.  So I can bring thousands of rounds of linked ammo to the range and never need to load a link while at the range.  That 500 rd burst above took a little over a minute.

So what can you buy for a transferable belt fed machinegun?  There is nothing that I know of that has a market value of $5,000.  Even at $10,000 yes there is the 08/15, but can that be fired from the shoulder standing up?  Can that 08/15 be anything other than a full power rifle caliber belt fed machinegun?  With a Valkyrie style upper a MAC family RR could be a belt fed tripod mounted, a SAW style shoulder mounted, a magazine fed assault rifle, or a match winning subgun.  The only two platforms I am aware of that can be a tripod mounted belt feed, SAW style shoulder fired belt feed, a mag feed assault rifle, and a match winning subgun is a HK sear/trigger frame ($25,000 for a sear or $28,000 for the trigger frame), or a M16 platform.  A RR could be MGI converted, but more than likely a DIAS or LL  (off brand RR $15,000, Colt RR $20,000, DIAS $22,000, or LL $15,000 would be used.

So a HK sear in a MM23E clone would be ($25,000 for the sear + $12,000 for the MM23E) at $37,000.  The LL and a Shrike ($15,000 + $5,000) at $20,000.  A MAC family RR at around $5,000 + $5,000 for a belt fed upper, would seem a bargain compared to the cost of the other two.  If the MAC family of RRs is adapted to a rifle caliber upper with a belt fed option, I wouldn't think the MAC family of RRs would not remain in the $5,000 range very long.  Time will tell.  YMMV.

Scott

Canon nailed it. I have a buddy with a M2hb. Its tits, its awesome, its awe inspiring, and its a pain in the mofo to take it anywhere. Then its a PITA to set it up, and a PITA to pack it up. And its  PITA to put it back in the house.

We don't bring it out much anymore because of all the PITAs. We prefer lighter, smaller, beltfeds, such as his mm23ek or my little lakeside machine LM-7. Small beltfed is fun and easy to run beltfed.
A beltfed for a mac10 or mac11 would do wonders for the belt fed world, attract more people to the NFA world, and subsequently shoot up the values of mac10s. When the mm23es came out, i saw HK sears go up in value. Same for the shrikes once they became mainstream, all RRs and DIAS shot up in value.

To paraphrase a well known saying, "Amateurs discuss cool guns, professionals discuss logistics".  I own a 1910 Maxim and a Vickers gun.  When contemplating my purchases, I considered ammo costs (both are or have been converted to 7.62x54r to minimize costs), transportation (I own a full size pickup) and places to shoot (I have access to full, open desert 2 miles from home).  I've considered relocating for professional reasons, and depending on where I might go, these guns might end up for sale due to the difficulty in finding a good place to shoot.  I might be the odd man out, but I don't consider taking these to the range to be a huge burden, because I planned for it/have an easier time of it.  Sure, they're not as quick as grabbing a subgun, but it's not overly onerous IMHO.  My biggest issue is suitable targets.  Belt feds such as these rapidly clear the field leaving one with little to shoot at.

Assuming one has a vehicle to carry these things, range setup can be mitigated with proper equipment.  Wheeled pelican cases, hand trucks for the ammo, etc.  Or get a mount designed to roll into place.  



At the end of the day, don't buy something you won't/can't readily shoot.  You won't be happy with your purchase and it's a waste of resources that could have been spent on something more enjoyable,

To paraphrase Neal Stephenson - some weapons have accessories, and others have.... infrastructure.  Purchase and plan accordingly.

I like that!  

I really wish these 556 uppers were still a thing. They must be rare as hens teeth, haven't heard of one being sold used. There are probably only a couple thousand out there.

I would be surprised if there were more than 100-200.  The MAC forum on the Uzitalk website may be your best bet for a lead.  I have seen maybe one or two for sale, and only on ta site.

Scott,

I have a MG08/15 and two MG08s with Sleds. I shoot them both at the AGC in Maryland which is about 45mins to an hour from DC, just west of Baltimore. We have a Full Auto machine gun club there and we shoot them twice a month. I bring out the Maxims about 4 times a year. Yes if you are filling them up with water, its to much for a 1/2hr range trip. However if your belting ammo, you are almost always over a 1/2 hour range trip. With corrosive 54r ammo, I am the cheapest shooting gun out on the range other than 22LR. I am paying more for 223 and 9mm.

They are some great guns but they do require a higher level of mechanical understanding. However if you are in the DC area and are looking for a place to shoot FA, come check us out! http://www.associatedgunclubs.org/

Wow sounds like I was way off on the 2k mark for the amount of those uppers that got turned out.

I hope your right about shockwave making one with standard AR parts, hopefully they can keep it under 10 lbs too.

Yup... I think there are only a handful of the AK series too, as in less than 20.

Also, people are breaking parts in under 5000 rounds, which is bad because most of what is in the thing is proprietary. There are a few guys making parts, but the hardened steel parts such as the sear plate are unobtanium.

Look at Uzitalk, lots of good information, lots of heartache.


If and when Marty puts his on the market it will be a game changer. He seems to know how to run a business a bit more professionally than AA and he actually delivers quality product. The greatest thing about his design is that there will be very few proprietary parts including the upper itself.

My limited understanding is Marty does not have the time or funds to chase down what he has mocked up.  His concept is cool but he said he just has "too many irons in the fire", so I would not hold my breath on Marty bring that mock up to market any time soon.  There is a thread on Uzitalk under the MACtalk forum if you are interested.  I have a similar design in the works but I need to finish my prototype and submit it to the Technology Branch.  I would like to do an AR based upper, but the initial cost is very high.  CNC machining is about quantity.  The engineering and software costs are pretty much fixed.  Once the engineering and software is done, the only cost is materials and machine time.  I would hate to have $10,000 to $15,000 tied up in designing and writing the software, build and submit a prototype, and then have the Tech Branch declare the rifle caliber MAC style "upper" as a firearm.  The MAC family of RR are sheet metal guns, so my prototype will be based on a sheet metal based firearm mechanism.  But I am not a machinist, nor do I have access, other than hiring it done by the hour.  So the process has gone slow.  YMMV.

Scott

Well whatever happens, I hope someone is able to build or provide at least an upper receiver for project guys like myself.

Like you I am very limited on what I can do at home, even though I have a couple pretty good ideas and sketches on the back burner.