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Posted: 4/28/2015 2:23:34 AM EDT
[#1]
i have a soft spot for the M60 but with everything you listed the 1919 sounds like it fits the bill.
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Posted: 4/28/2015 3:45:06 AM EDT
[#2]
1919 for your given criteria. Though there was a time when 7.62x54R was cheap enough that the maxims and certain mg34/mg42 combos were competitive.
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Posted: 4/28/2015 5:15:24 AM EDT
[#3]
If "practical" means easy to take to the range and fire off the shoulder (i.e., without a tripod) then it's hard to beat the M60. These things are about convenience, and convenience means you're more likely to actually take the thing out and shoot it once you buy it.
With your criteria the 1919 seems like the best option. Joe |
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Posted: 4/28/2015 9:26:08 AM EDT
[#4]
I'll parrot what others have said, the M1919 is the best entry level belt fed MG and fits your requirements but if it was me and I had the cash I would go with the M60.
With that being said if you're budget is tight and you want the most MGs for the lowest price I would recommend a M16, you can toss a shrike on it and feed that itch for a belt fed, then swap out the upper and run 9mm for a pistol carbine course, buy a retro upper for looks or just leave it mag fed, lots of options. Similarly if you're into HKs you can buy a sear and have dozens of different MGs |
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Posted: 4/28/2015 9:30:23 AM EDT
[#5]
MG42 with MG3 Kit
I dont know of any other belt fed with so many current spare parts/barrels with lower prices, with the added bonus of easy to transport and you dont have to set up a tripod. With the cost of surplus ammo going up, and supply down, .308 is still plentiful. |
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Posted: 4/28/2015 10:44:30 AM EDT
[#6]
Given your criteria listed above I would say the 1919 variant. This is coming from an M60 owner who has little personal interest in owning a 1919.
I just really prefer a beltfed I can shoot off the shoulder and the 1919 one big weak point is its ability to comfortably fire off the shoulder as it is pretty much a tripod mounted gun and the A6 variant is a pretty big compromise to get bipod and shoulder capability. I have a M60, Shrike, and am looking to add a MM23EK in the near future. |
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Posted: 4/28/2015 2:24:16 PM EDT
[#7]
I voted Vickers. The guns themselves are coming down in price due to the shortage of 303 ammo, but can be easily and inexpensively converted to fire 7.62x54r ammo. At that point, the gun works with PKM belts and loaders, which are cheap and available. Oddly enough, the Vickers parts you might need can still be had inexpensively, although complete kits are very pricey ($2000+). Being a riveted box, it will last quite some time (like the 1919).
I have seen examples go for less than a 1919, but they are more thinly traded. I'm not sure why the commonality of the gun is an issue to you, as long as you can support it with parts. Being water cooled, the barrels will last quite some time and you have some flexibility on barrel choices. Bob Naess of Black River Militaria will convert Finish Maxim barrels to the Vickers profile. The resulting barrel runs about $500. Alternately, a poor man's caliber conversion can be had by running a 7.62x54r reamer into a 303 barrel. The cases will be grossly blown out (Who cares? They're steel!), but this can run very well. Ruptured cases are a greater possibility, so keep a case extractor handy. How do I know all this? I have one! You can see it fire 7.62x54r in this video. 
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Posted: 4/28/2015 3:59:53 PM EDT
[#8]
Thanks to everyone who has voted / responded thus far. As always, very useful
information. the M1919 is the best entry level belt fed MG and fits your requirements Yes, that was an alternate title for the thread... my question is more along the lines of "best belt-fed range toy" if you will... will never use this in any sort of "real-world" sense... I'm not sure why the commonality of the gun is an issue to you, as long as you can support it with parts My thinking - all other things being equal, the more "common" an item is, the more likely it will be to find spare parts for it. There are exceptions, granted, but even then spare parts for rare items tend to dry up over time. (at the very least, if something is common, it's possible to "cannibalize" one item as spares for another) the most MGs for the lowest price I would recommend a M16, you can toss a shrike on it and feed that itch for
a belt fed Not a bad suggestion, and given that I have an M16 RR pending, this is an option that I may end up trying regardless. That said, just the Shrike upper is $5Kish and I've read a number of reviews that are spotty (feeding problems, mainly with the standard links being too tight). That said, it seems to be one of the only realistic options for a 5.56mm belt-fed (with the other option I know of being an HK clone w/ sear). - - - - - Although there is a certain nostalgic allure about owning something water cooled, I've been told that these guns have to be fairly scrupulously dried out after use; so I'm a little "iffy" about if water cooled would be a good starter belt fed... but I'll give it some thought. One other thing that surprises me a little is that the M-60 is currently leading the poll. Given that we're talking a $40-50K investment for one, I guess I thought these wouldn't be as common/popular. |
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Posted: 4/28/2015 5:21:59 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryMy thinking - all other things being equal, the more "common" an item is, the more likely it will be to find
spare parts for it. There are exceptions, granted, but even then spare parts for rare items tend to dry up over time. (at the very least, if something is common, it's possible to "cannibalize" one item as spares for another) Quote HistoryMy thinking - all other things being equal, the more "common" an item is, the more likely it will be to find
spare parts for it. There are exceptions, granted, but even then spare parts for rare items tend to dry up over time. (at the very least, if something is common, it's possible to "cannibalize" one item as spares for another) My advice is to grab whatever spares you think you need once you pick a path. Cannibalizing is not really a plan. I hope you wouldn't cut up a second MG to feed a first (which doesn't make much sense), and the semi guns you encounter may have the needed parts modified beyond use. I just finished a 2.5 year wait for a 1910 Maxim. I purchased many spares during that window and am glad I did. I literally watched the available parts dry up and vanish over that time period. Although there is a certain nostalgic allure about owning something water cooled, I've been told
that these guns have to be fairly scrupulously dried out after use; so I'm a little "iffy" about if water cooled would be a good starter belt fed... but I'll give it some thought. The Vickers is my first belt fed, so I understand the reluctance. While I'm cleaning the internals, I tilt the gun downwards on the tripod and stick a hair dryer up its backside. This heats up the jacket to evaporate residual water and passes hot dry air through it. I also store the gun vertical without the barrel to promote some minimal airflow. I suppose you could also put some WD40 in the jacket as well. Have fun with whatever you decide! |
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Posted: 4/28/2015 5:45:11 PM EDT
[#10]
We'll I'm going to go out on a limb here and say your best bet is HK, either a 21 or a 23 or maybe both.
There are several builders in the US that make high-quality clones (Michael's Machines, TSC, RDTS, etc.). For instance, the Michael's Machines guns (MM23, MM21) can be purchased with conversion parts to make the other, so you have a 5.56 and a .308 beltfed. He's also in the process of developing a conversion for 7.62x39. Parts seem to be accessible with US parts manufactured for replacement, etc. In addition, you aren't only restricted to beltfeds/single weapon systems. When you have the sear pack, you can put it in any HK roller-locked style weapon. Sure the investment is more than a 1919, but the modularity of the whole system is easily worth the additional up-front cost. To me, it's a no-brainer and a way better option than any other beltfed, including the 1919 and the M60. |
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Posted: 4/28/2015 6:01:15 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One other thing that surprises me a little is that the M-60 is currently leading the poll. Given that we're talking a $40-50K investment for one, I guess I thought these wouldn't be as common/popular. You're underestimating our willingness to spend your money ;) (I didn't vote) |
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Posted: 5/8/2015 12:14:19 AM EDT
[#12]
I have an M60, an HK sear, and an MM23e.
I had a 1919. I sold the 1919. You need to lug the beast and tripod, or turn it into the A6 and it's still heavy. It was built like a tank, lots of cheap spares, and 2 or 3 calibers. I thought it was boring, though. I like my M60 but it's expensive to shoot, as are all 308s. The MM23e is fast but I had to send it back twice to get it to run. In 308 it will be a bit rough. I still have it but it doesn't get shot much. It's not cheap at more than $35k with sear. Add $4k+ for the 308 kit. Even though I'm stuck in 308, my M60 is an old favorite. Really reliable, spares available but not cheap. Easy to shoot and very controllable. How much metal you're willing to lug will determine what you get. Old or new? I like to be able to change the barrel quickly, so you can see my leanings. |
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Posted: 5/8/2015 2:59:55 PM EDT
[#13]
I have an M60, an HK sear, and an MM23e.
I had a 1919. I sold the 1919. You need to lug the beast and tripod, or turn it into the A6 and it's still heavy. It was built like a tank, lots of cheap spares, and 2 or 3 calibers. I thought it was boring, though. I like my M60 but it's expensive to shoot, as are all 308s. The MM23e is fast but I had to send it back twice to get it to run. In 308 it will be a bit rough. I still have it but it doesn't get shot much. It's not cheap at more than $35k with sear. Add $4k+ for the 308 kit. Even though I'm stuck in 308, my M60 is an old favorite. Really reliable, spares available but not cheap. Easy to shoot and very controllable. How much metal you're willing to lug will determine what you get. Old or new? I like to be able to change the barrel quickly, so you can see my leanings. Thanks... information like this is very useful. I understand (kind of) what you're saying about the size/weight of the M1919... somebody on another thread pointed out, "there's a reason these guns are called 'crew served'". For me, it'll involve hauling it to a range that will allow full-auto .308/.30-06 fire, setting it up, shooting, taking it down, etc. So I'm trying to be realistic about that part. I agree that the M60 looks like less trouble but at a substantially greater expense to own & maintain. Interesting about the MM23e; as I've already sprung for a sear, that was an option that kind of made sense for me. But a local SOT/dealer advised me to, in general, "stay away from HK belt feds"... seems your experience was in-line with this advice. I didn't include it in the survey, but even though it's $5Kish, the SHRIKE may be the least expensive option right now... and it's in 5.56, which is generally cheaper than .308. Thing is, I've read quite a bit about reliability problems with them, so it's still not a clear-cut option. |
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Posted: 5/9/2015 6:36:56 AM EDT
[#14]
I'm in for the MM21e/23e. I had a RAMO1919 A4 but was a lot younger and didn't have much help in the early 90's. It was a great shooter. I also have a Gen 5 Shrike on my Colt M-16A1 and have had great luck with it. So for me it's the MM than a Shrike. Belt guns are the way!
Good Luck 
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Posted: 5/10/2015 1:37:47 AM EDT
[#15]
I've had my Shrike for 5 years, fiddling to get it to work. It was spotty. Finally I read the Shrike thread here and found how to make it work.
Use the Ares spring and spacer and an H2 buffer, wet tumble the links, dry, and lube with silicone spray (PB blaster silicone lube). Some need to stretch the links. I don't. It ran beautifully last I used it. You might want to get a spare bolt and extractors (expensive). It's fun in its own way. Not very sturdy, more picky than the MM23e, but a lot more portable. Not a military grade accessory, imho. I like it. |
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Posted: 5/10/2015 1:56:33 PM EDT
[#16]
Out of all my beltfeds my m60e6 is the best. The 23e is great too. My MG42 is a blast but it's also 70 years old.....
My vote is the M60 |
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Posted: 5/10/2015 5:12:37 PM EDT
[#17]
collegeboy said...
"The 23e is great too... " Yeah, I certainly liked your video on the 23e (among your other videos...). And as I mentioned above, as I'm already "in" for an HK sear, this option is certainly worth looking at, for me. How much trouble, if any, did you have getting the gun (23e) to run reliably? Any special tricks/techniques? Another plus (as people have mentioned) for the 23e/Shrike is the ammo cost; and there don't seem to be very many options for a 5.56mm belt fed. |
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Posted: 5/10/2015 7:04:47 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, I certainly liked your video on the 23e (among your other videos...). And as I mentioned above, as I'm already "in" for an HK sear, this option is certainly worth looking at, for me. How much trouble, if any, did you have getting the gun (23e) to run reliably? Any special tricks/techniques? Another plus (as people have mentioned) for the 23e/Shrike is the ammo cost; and there don't seem to be very many options for a 5.56mm belt fed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
collegeboy said...
"The 23e is great too... " Yeah, I certainly liked your video on the 23e (among your other videos...). And as I mentioned above, as I'm already "in" for an HK sear, this option is certainly worth looking at, for me. How much trouble, if any, did you have getting the gun (23e) to run reliably? Any special tricks/techniques? Another plus (as people have mentioned) for the 23e/Shrike is the ammo cost; and there don't seem to be very many options for a 5.56mm belt fed. If you already have a hk seat it makes sense to get a 23e as they will be more rugged than a shrike |
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Posted: 5/11/2015 1:13:21 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, I certainly liked your video on the 23e (among your other videos...). And as I mentioned above, as I'm already "in" for an HK sear, this option is certainly worth looking at, for me. How much trouble, if any, did you have getting the gun (23e) to run reliably? Any special tricks/techniques? Another plus (as people have mentioned) for the 23e/Shrike is the ammo cost; and there don't seem to be very many options for a 5.56mm belt fed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
collegeboy said...
"The 23e is great too... " Yeah, I certainly liked your video on the 23e (among your other videos...). And as I mentioned above, as I'm already "in" for an HK sear, this option is certainly worth looking at, for me. How much trouble, if any, did you have getting the gun (23e) to run reliably? Any special tricks/techniques? Another plus (as people have mentioned) for the 23e/Shrike is the ammo cost; and there don't seem to be very many options for a 5.56mm belt fed. The MM23E has ran great from the get go for me. The 21E conversion as well. |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 8:39:32 PM EDT
[#20]
HK 23E from today's machine gun shoot.
 No, it isn't mine and that wasn't me shooting it.
https://instagram.com/p/2v2EKLlumL/ |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 12:57:34 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
HK 23E from today's machine gun shoot. No, it isn't mine and that wasn't me shooting it.
https://instagram.com/p/2v2EKLlumL/ That's awesome |
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Posted: 5/18/2015 6:01:38 PM EDT
[#22]
Ma Deuce
When it talks, everyone listens. |
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Posted: 5/18/2015 6:09:33 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ma Deuce When it talks, everyone listens. Damn thing just costs so much to feed...even reloading it's expensive |
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Posted: 5/18/2015 6:14:13 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ma Deuce When it talks, everyone listens. Have you priced a spare parts kit? I guess if you can afford to feed it.... |
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Posted: 5/18/2015 11:36:02 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
HK 23E from today's machine gun shoot. No, it isn't mine and that wasn't me shooting it.
https://instagram.com/p/2v2EKLlumL/ Need to feed that baby 5.56 so the rate of fire is correct 
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Posted: 5/19/2015 4:00:54 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ma Deuce When it talks, everyone listens. |
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Posted: 5/19/2015 10:12:21 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I missed a side plate for 8-9k two years ago Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Ma Deuce When it talks, everyone listens. Yeah, but what does it cost to build it up once you have the plate? If spare parts are expensive... |
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Posted: 5/19/2015 12:01:12 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, but what does it cost to build it up once you have the plate? If spare parts are expensive... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Ma Deuce When it talks, everyone listens. Yeah, but what does it cost to build it up once you have the plate? If spare parts are expensive... |
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Posted: 5/19/2015 12:10:30 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I want to say $2500 for parts and $7/800 to build it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Ma Deuce When it talks, everyone listens. Yeah, but what does it cost to build it up once you have the plate? If spare parts are expensive... Parks kits are over $5K now. |
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Posted: 5/19/2015 1:37:38 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Parks kits are over $5K now. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Ma Deuce When it talks, everyone listens. Yeah, but what does it cost to build it up once you have the plate? If spare parts are expensive... Parks kits are over $5K now. Well that is scary. I think a M2 would be fun to shoot. But damn its heavy as hell and shooting $5 bills does add up!! |
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Posted: 5/19/2015 4:05:53 PM EDT
[#31]
I think you can reload 50cal for like $2.50 a round but that can get 15+ rounds of reloaded 5.56
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Posted: 5/20/2015 4:31:44 PM EDT
[#32]
Nothing beats my Shrike....I just pick up the links and relink....no issues:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlOkuvm9lfs [youtube]https://youtu.be/hlOkuvm9lfs[/youtube] |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 7:25:51 PM EDT
[#33]
PKM! Are there any transferable ones out there?
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Posted: 5/29/2015 1:04:12 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
PKM! Are there any transferable ones out there? Never seen one for sale. I have seen a handful of transferable RPDs out there, both rewelds and a handful of amnesty bringbacks from Vietnam. The PK saw use in Vietnam and I suspect that if there was a firearm used in any measurable quantity in Vietnam prior to 68, one was probably brought back and registered during the amnesty. If memory serves correctly, I have read some posts in the past claiming there are a couple of transferable PKs and maybe a handful of those that have been upgraded to PKMs (as I believe they share essentially the same receiver) but have personally never seen one of either type for sale in 15+ years. If one did come up for sale you are probably talking Porsche 911 Turbo money to put one in your safe. |
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Posted: 5/30/2015 1:48:15 AM EDT
[#35]
I know a guy that owns a transferable bring back PK, RPD and AK47. A Colonel brought them home from Vietnam and registered them. All were in mint condition. He sold them later as a set to the guy I know that owns them. I tried talking him out of the RPD but failed.
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Posted: 6/6/2015 9:45:03 PM EDT
[#36]
1919A4 is what I would buy, given your criteria.
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Posted: 6/6/2015 10:29:52 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Never seen one for sale. I have seen a handful of transferable RPDs out there, both rewelds and a handful of amnesty bringbacks from Vietnam. The PK saw use in Vietnam and I suspect that if there was a firearm used in any measurable quantity in Vietnam prior to 68, one was probably brought back and registered during the amnesty. If memory serves correctly, I have read some posts in the past claiming there are a couple of transferable PKs and maybe a handful of those that have been upgraded to PKMs (as I believe they share essentially the same receiver) but have personally never seen one of either type for sale in 15+ years. If one did come up for sale you are probably talking Porsche 911 Turbo money to put one in your safe. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
PKM! Are there any transferable ones out there? Never seen one for sale. I have seen a handful of transferable RPDs out there, both rewelds and a handful of amnesty bringbacks from Vietnam. The PK saw use in Vietnam and I suspect that if there was a firearm used in any measurable quantity in Vietnam prior to 68, one was probably brought back and registered during the amnesty. If memory serves correctly, I have read some posts in the past claiming there are a couple of transferable PKs and maybe a handful of those that have been upgraded to PKMs (as I believe they share essentially the same receiver) but have personally never seen one of either type for sale in 15+ years. If one did come up for sale you are probably talking Porsche 911 Turbo money to put one in your safe. I have a close friend that rents one out(PKM) in the WV area, come to Morgantown this Sept. and have some fun with it. We are searching hard for another one, or a kit in any form with at least a demilled receiver.  It's like searching for a silver unicorn.
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Posted: 6/6/2015 10:41:41 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 1919A4 is what I would buy, given your criteria.  |
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Posted: 6/6/2015 10:46:31 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a close friend that rents one out(PKM) in the WV area, come to Morgantown this Sept. and have some fun with it. We are searching hard for another one, or a kit in any form with at least a demilled receiver. It's like searching for a silver unicorn.Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
PKM! Are there any transferable ones out there? Never seen one for sale. I have seen a handful of transferable RPDs out there, both rewelds and a handful of amnesty bringbacks from Vietnam. The PK saw use in Vietnam and I suspect that if there was a firearm used in any measurable quantity in Vietnam prior to 68, one was probably brought back and registered during the amnesty. If memory serves correctly, I have read some posts in the past claiming there are a couple of transferable PKs and maybe a handful of those that have been upgraded to PKMs (as I believe they share essentially the same receiver) but have personally never seen one of either type for sale in 15+ years. If one did come up for sale you are probably talking Porsche 911 Turbo money to put one in your safe. I have a close friend that rents one out(PKM) in the WV area, come to Morgantown this Sept. and have some fun with it. We are searching hard for another one, or a kit in any form with at least a demilled receiver. It's like searching for a silver unicorn.A PKM kit? I could get you one. What are they worth? |
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Posted: 6/20/2015 11:55:36 PM EDT
[#40]
My suppressed shorty. I sold my other one but building a 3rd now.
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Posted: 6/22/2015 1:15:26 AM EDT
[#41]
M60 is my vote.
Nowadays, parts are easy to find, .308 is common and easy to reload, and the E6 kit brings the gun into the 21st century. Thanks to the Danish military for the vote of confidence. Btw, if anyone needs E6 parts, I have plenty. I have new in the bag barrels, op rods, bolts, etc. PM me. I bought way to many spares. |
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