Greetings--

Been reading around a bit on HK trigger packs... hoping someone
who know can help me make sure I understand all this correctly.

My best move (I think) is going to be to get either a registered sear
or registered trigger pack ("DLO box") that will fit in semi-auto guns...
this will give me several legal MG's for the price of one.  Versus a registered
FA receiver could use HK spares, but I'd be limited to just the one gun/
one caliber.

So, for instance, this current auction--

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=454860735

...appears someone made the S&H sear work with an HK94.  I realize
there may be some hammer timing and related issues, but presumably that's
been done already with this weapon.... so if I purchased it, I could just unpin
the trigger pack and put it in another "sear ready" semi host (e.g., AA89, etc.)

Do I have all this correct?  Is there a better/smarter way to get a transferrable
HK-type gun?

Thanks
SD

IMHO the place to start would be http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=141:the-complete-reference-on-the-legal-nfa-conversion-of-hk-firearms&catid=4:special-topics&Itemid=5 for information as to what and how semi auto roller locked guns can be converted.  To be clear, HK 94s were imported as rifles.  If the sear was removed from the 94 with a barrel less than 16", without the 94 being registered as a SBR, then the 94 would be an unregistered SBR.  My Fleming sear was transferred to me "married" to a Vollmer converted 94.  I registered the 94 as a SBR so I could remove the sear.  Read the article I linked to, then come back with specific questions.  I think the article is fairly clear as to how roller locked guns can be converted to full auto.

Scott

Scott,

Thanks for your reply; I'd actually seen your link (all 4 pages of it!) before
posting here.  While no doubt complete and accurate, there's a lot of
information to absorb, especially for those relatively new to the world of
HK conversions.

But I see your point about the HK94 being an SBR.   Still, compared to
buying/transferring a machine gun, it's presently relatively trivial to
register a gun as an SBR, so if this were necessary it would be acceptable (in
my view).

The bottom line appears to me to be that so long as it's the sear (or
conversion box) that's the registered item, then it's possible to legally
move it around to different hosts.  Correct?

SD

A sear is more versatile than a Trigger Box, as the sear can be put into the Ambi packs, while the Trigger Box is forever SEF.

Correct. You want a sear or a registered pack if you want to move it to different hosts.

QFT

Once you install the sear into a pack, the pack can be moved between several different hosts, yes.  Generally you have to swap the housing to ensure correct shelf height, the ejector, and ejector spring I think.  Not sure about the extractor.

You can run a rifle-strength hammer spring in the pack and it will function with any caliber, apparently.

So, yes, you seem to have a good grasp on most of it.

As renegade noted, the DLO or registered pack will always be whatever configuration it currently is.  A sear can go into any type of pack (SEF, Navy, Ambi, 2/3 shot burst).

The registered fire control boxes can be converted to take Ambi parts but it is a one way permanent conversion and you will not be going back to SEF has the selector Axel hole has to be enlarged. (along with other holes drilled)

SEF registered box to Ambi box can be done by a handful of HK Smiths.

Sears can technically be moved back and forth between an ambi and SEF style pack, but legally you cant have more than one Sear prepped fire control "pack".  The reason is that a sear prepped pack with the sear removed will allow slam fire when set on auto and the ATF considers them conversion parts at that point.  Similar to a M16 DIAS, in that you need M16 parts to make it work but you cant leave M16 FCG parts in 3 or 4 hosts and then just move the DIAS around, the M16 parts have to move with the sear.

I prefer registered sears over boxes myself.   Converting the pack from 9MM to 5.56 to 308 is just the change of the hammer spring (9MM to 5.56/308) and the ejector lever.  The ejector spring is the same and the extractor is part of the bolt carrier in the host.  Some folks have success running either the rifle hammer spring in 9MM and/or the S&W40/10MM spring in all three.

It only takes a couple of minutes to swap the ejector lever and/or hammer springs around.

To me I thought the sear was the way to go.  The registered trigger frames typically have a market value of $2,000 to $4,000 more than a S&H or Fleming sear.  That could be an extra couple of hosts.  Like you said, one machinegun can be many.  That is why I own a Fleming sear a SWD DIAS and a M10.

Scott

Thanks for all who have taken the time to reply.

Looks like a registered sear is the way to go... I've seen people
on forums claim that it could be difficult to "show your serial #" if
so required, but that's a chance I can put up with.  Also, as long
as the sear doesn't break, I can afford to have a competent SOT/gunsmith
repair/tune/modify the trigger box for me, when needed.

Any preference for Fleming vs. D&H vs. other?

SD

Well I'm in the minority a bit in the sense that every range I go to asks me for my stamps.  Most people claim they never get asked; I almost always do.  I have to say though that if they ask me to check the stamp of my sear when it's in the pack, I'll tell them to either take my word for it or get bent.  There's virtually no way to show the serial number on the sear when it's in the pack, and I'm certainly not going to take it apart to show them that.  So cross that bridge when you get to it; don't worry about it now.  My guess is that if you ask to see the manager and show him the form and explain the situation, he'll just let it pass.

Regarding the sears themselves, there are 3 major companies that made them: Fleming, Qualified, and S&H.

Fleming and Qualified sears command a little more of a premium over the S&H.  F&Q were created on the same equipment as I understand it and are the same design.  S&H sears are a little differently made, and thus, are a little less desirable, but certainly not much.

I'd say current market prices for a loose S&H sear are somewhere in the $19k-22k range and Flemings and Qualifieds are in the $23k-$26k range.

Boxes have an advantage of being pure factory spec. Parts are easier to replace and you generally don't have timing issues that you often expericne with sears and hammers. DLO and lafrance made boxes.

S&H sears are investment cast.  The H Series Fleming and the K Series Qualified sears are stamped tool steel.

The ones that command the highest premium are the H Fleming or K Qualified series as they are supposed to be the most durable and S&H being cast have some very limited rumors of developing cracks.  The ones to stay away from are any that have the trip arm integral to the sear like some of the old Ceiner Sears, some of the really old Fleming bar stock milled sears,  and/or any sear that has been modded (cut and welded on) to fit into an ambi burst pack with a factory hammer.  (vs. modding the hammer or using a MM burst conversion hammer like is done today)

I have two Fleming and a Qualified and other than the markings they are identical. The first was bought in 2003 (I think) and all of them have seen quite a few rounds and don't looks like they have any wear, so either a Fleming H series or Qualified would be my vote, but there are plenty of happy S&H owners out there as well.

You are correct that its really difficult to see the serial number when installed in the pack, especially if it is dirty.   The marking info is very lightly electro-penciled on the crossbar between the legs and the side.   What I did was just engrave the fire control box with the sear manufacturer and serial number.  Something akin to  "Qualified Machinegun Sear SN# K1234".  The handful of time I have had to show the serial number to the form, pulling the pack with the information neatly engraved has passed inspection.

Your collection and knowledge is simply unbelievable.  I didn't even know about the other types of sears, with the exception of the modified cut and welded ones for the ambi packs and factory hammers.  Very cool knowledge drop there, sir.

3 HK sears...wow, that's awesome.

I was fortunate in that only the 3rd sear I purchased was barely into 5 digits in cost at the time.  The first one was only 3 or 4K depending upon how you valued the host  gun it came in.   I never liked having to move the ejector or hammer springs around so I have one set up in 9MM, one in 5.56 and a 3rd in 308.  Granted doing that today would cost you  $75 to $90K vs. the ~$20,000 it cost me a decade or more ago.  So moving the springs and ejectors has a much bigger financial motivation today.

Here are some pics that were from the old volmer board showing the units with the integral arm (ciener and hta) as well as the older fleming milled bar stock style (top pic 2nd from the right)

I never get asked to see my paperwork. Even offered to show it a few times to RSOs who seemed interested in what i was shooting, none seemed to care about the paper work,just wanted to watch me shoot it haha.

Add Neal Smith to the list and I've heard (but never seen) there are some KAC packs. LaFrance made two types - one consists of all FA factory hardware and the other uses a sear milled from bar stock in what appears to be a converted semi housing.

I've heard that LaFrance made two types of registered frames. All of the LaFrance frames I've seen posted to the boards over the past 15 years were unmodified semiauto with a proprietary unserialized autosear.  I've followed about a half dozen over the years. A few KAC frames have also come up for sale over the years and I believe they also used an unmodified semiauto frame and proprietary autosear.  I had a Neal Smith frame in my hands at a buddy's shop. It was a semiauto frame that had been modded to fullauto spec by welding sheet metal the the front/bottom and milling the hole for the autosear axis pin. It was nicely done.

I have a DLO frame and love it. I've had it for about 9 years. Initially I wanted to convert it to ambi. Now, I really don't care. I like the fact that it uses all factory fullauto FCG parts. I have a roller sear in mine. No timing issues, no special non-factory spare parts. It is the mechanical analog of a pushpin RR conversion with the versatility (save for the ambi option) of a sear.

You still have ambi option, it just takes some machining to get there. I agree that an all-factory box/pack is the best setup.

I guess having [at least] one factory SEF box and one ambi box registered would be the absolute best.

So.... the next question is what is a "fair" price for an HK auto sear?

The "MG Price Guide" suggests $26.5K--

...and this is consistent with the general range given in one of the posts
above.  Anyone else have input here?

I paid $21k for my loose Fleming in September.  I think that was a bit under market then.

I'd say $25-26k is a good ballpark for one in a pack at the moment, particularly if it's a burst pack.

So if one purchases a sear in a pack set up for a rifle (e.g., HK91/.308),
how much trouble is it to switch to work with 9mm?  (I think maybe the hammer and
ejector need to be switched?)

Is this something that the "average" (non-gunsmith) person can do?

And if not, who's a reputable/reliable SOT that can perform this work?

Thanks.........SD

In the SEF packs it's easy. Remove the trigger pack from the grip frame then take a small screwdriver or even a spare firing pin and push out the ejector axle (pivot) pin and swap out the ejector with one for the caliber of choice.
Ambi packs are the same except for fumbling around with the selector levers when removing the pack from the grip frame then placing it back.
Lots of guys, myself included, simply run the rifle hammer spring in all calibers so nothing to change there.

Although as many have pointed out a sear can be moved into an ambi pack, it isn't easy to do.

A DLO pack is forever a SEF pack, but every part in it can be replaced with a factory HK part in a few minutes.

A sear pack part may not be factory spec, and must be tuned to the pack. Granted you're only talking about the hammer and trip lever, but it's a hassle, none the less.

Another question for those experienced with these items (transferrable HK sears).

How important is it that the paperwork is registered in specific calibers?
E.g., registered for just 9 mm vs 9mm & 5.56 & 7.62mm.

I'll hazard a guess not too important b/c people are putting these sears
in HK clones made in .40 S&W (which wasn't even around until 1990 or
so, well after the '86 ban).

But even so, can anyone discuss the significance of what caliber an MG
sear (*or even, MG receiver, as the case may be) is registered in?

Thanks!

Not important. Nowadays ATF says that in transfer a single caliber must be chosen for the form, but you can use the sear in any HK gun.

A sear does not actually have a caliber - the proper caliber entry for a machinegun conversion is "N/A", as is the caliber of a receiver transferred with no barrel installed.

A machinegun or other NFA firearm that is also a title 1 firearm (as well as a registered title 2 firearm) should transfer as the caliber it is configured for at the time of the transfer.

But... in practice, and as carryover from prior times, most people just leave the identifying information on a new transfer application exactly the same as the previous form lists, to cut down the chance of issues with the transfer due to mismatched information requiring correction and intervention by an examiner slowing down the transfer application.

I have another question about this aspect; I *think* I know the answer, but since what's
"logical" to me might not be so to the ATF, I want to ask those with experience...

Pistol version HK clones are presently readily available at a fraction of the price of
anything HK original; a couple specific examples of what I'm talking about--


My question-- do I have to register these as SBR's to shoot FA & stay legal?  E.g., for "assembly," why not--


Then, when I want to run my pack in something else--


I totally realize that I couldn't shoot that pistol with a stock and the semi trigger, but
frankly I wouldn't intend to, anyway... as a practical matter, it would just be a host for my
sear pack.

As for theoretical "constructive possession" issues, I own both full-size HK rifles & SBR's,
so I would have a "legal configuration" for the stock when it was off the handgun (not even
really sure this matters).

Thanks for your input,

SD

I personally wouldn't want more stocks that I have legal homes for them.

If you have a HK93 rifle and a HK53 pistol can you swap the stock from the 93 onto the 53 when you install the sear.  Definitely

Should you have a MP5 Pistol (with stock), MP5K Pistol (with K stock), HK53 (with A3 stock), and a G3K (with stock) and one sear?  ehhhh in my estimation probably not.  While the odds are low of prosecution if you don't drag them all out to the range and do the stock swap dance in public,   $200 for SBRs is pretty cheap insurance as well.

The one nice thing about ARs is that pistol lowers are really cheap to keep extra short uppers legal when not on a MG or SBR host.

I'm of the opposite opinion. Machinegun > SBR. It's a machinegun any time it has the registered sear in it. Just don't have a stock and/or foregrip installed on your pistol(s) without the sear installed, and you're fine. You DO have a legal home for all those parts (even if you bring them all to the range at the same time) as long as you also brought a registered machinegun that will swap into everything you have a stock (or K-grip) for. Feel free to stand there and swap them in front of everybody, just remove the stock and VFG before you take the sear out of your pistol host. If you want ultimate versatility, sure you could SBR all the hosts...



Disadvantages:

1) more items to list on a 5320.20 (when applicable)

2) Some states don't allow SBR's.

3) $$$

4) more difficult hosts to sell later
Same thing with AR's. You can have multiple short uppers for one pistol lower or one machinegun lower. This has been discussed here lots of times.

See, that's what I was thinking-- if you can do it with AR's, why wouldn't it be
legal for other platforms (e.g., HK's)?  And I don't see why you couldn't do it in
front of the ATF or whoever-- so long as you never had things assembled in an
illegal configuration, what could they charge you with?

There are several different ways to deal with this.  I don't know as there is a right or wrong, more of a "what is your comfort level".  I have seen members post that they have done multiple SBR registry for all their sear hosts so they can store the stock for that configuration on that host.  I'm fortunate enough to own over 20 hosts with five more currently being finished by Jeff (two 9mm SDs, two .40 S&W SDs, and a 45X reverse stretch, all of which are being made as barreled receivers).  I have at least one stock for 9mm and .40 caliber "K" guns, MP5 A2 and two different A3 stocks, MP5-40 A3, 53K A2 and A3, 53 A2 and A3 that I can also use on my 33K pistols.  Most every host I have with a barrel less than 16" is a pistol or barreled receiver.  I keep a separate case just for stocks.  

As part of the switching the sear from one host to another, the stock is removed from the host to remove sear.  When I pull the stock off, I place the stock in the case with the other stocks, and pull the stock for the next configuration.  I also put the host (pistol or barreled receiver) in the case.  Put the sear in the housing for the next host with the proper ejector, install it to the host and install the stock to finish the configuration of the next machinegun.  To me, I think the important issue is storing the stocks and possibly vertical grips in a case separate from the host guns they would go to.  I'm not a lawyer, nor is this legal advise.  To me, a "reasonable person" could understand why I would have multiple stocks so I can use those stocks with each host to install the sear and make different machineguns from the hosts and the machinegun conversion device.  I think it is very important to put the parts that "need" to be separate away before getting another configuration out.  If that legally concerns you or you feel that is too much of a hassle, register your hosts as SBRs.  If you like the separate stock concept, get a case to keep your stocks away from the hosts.  YMMV.

Scott

There's a big difference between HK and AR platforms.  With ARs the lower is the receiver.  With HKs that upper is the receiver.  It's just not worth it to me, so I SBRed all of my German hosts.  Why not?  It keeps you from ever having an issue, and they are great guns in semi auto as well when the pack isn't installed on them.

There is precedent that if you have a legal use for said stock on a host, it is legal so long as it is only installed when the pack is installed. This was part of the Encore TC case.

With that said, I woukd just SBR all hosts for the reason collegeboy mentioned - they are just plain cool and fun to shoot. Big ungainly pistols are not.

I would think the TC Contender Case only covers you for each legal kit/combination (for lack of a better word).

For example you can have one TC Contender Pistol and one long barrel and one stock (to make one legal rifle config) out of the pistol.  

You could also have half a dozen Contender Pistols, half dozen rifle barrels, and half a dozen stock, effectively creating 6 complete "kits".    

However, having a dozen Contender pistols, plus one rifle barrel, doesn't necessarily put you in the clear to own a dozen different Contender stocks.  Sure you could theoretically use your dozen different stocks, in conjunction with your one rifle barrel, to build 12 different rifle variants on any of your Contender pistols (but never more than one at a time) but that's not a legal case I would want to argue.....not over $200  anyway.  

As mentioned earlier you can provide a legal home for extra short barrel AR uppers via pistol lowers.  It is also true you can do the same thing with HKs hosts, however with the "upper" being the firearm in the HK scenario the economics are different.

For ARs the "upper" in most cases is the expensive part.  You can have one DIAS host, with say two $1000 short uppers and keep the spare short upper legal by storing it on a $100 AR Pistol Lower when its not attached to the host with the DIAS installed.   You would have one short barrel "M16" and one AR pistol.   The pistol lowers are cheaper/easier than another stamp+receiver for extra SBR lowers.

For HKs since the upper is the firearm, in order to be 100% safe than you would need "rifle" based receiver hosts to store the spare stocks when they are not attached to the pistol host that has the sear pack installed.  

Say you  have a MP5 Pistol, HK53 pistol, and G3K pistol and stocks for each variant.  To be 100% in the clear you would want to store the stocks on an HK94, HK93, and HK91 Rifle Hosts when not in use.  

From an economics perspective the HK rifle hosts to keep the stocks legal when not in use with the sear pack installed pistol host costs more than just SBRing the pistol hosts in the first place.

If you are dead set on having a bunch of pistols, stocks that fit them and one sear pack that is up to each individual to evaluate the risk/cost benefit.   Personally I think these types of laws are bullshit, so more power to you if that is your take.

That said I wouldn't personally recommend anybody test the legal boundries and potentially have to defend a felony prosecution over owning a multiple HK pistol hosts with stocks that snap on them in under 30 seconds via one pushpin, unless there is another legal combination for all those stocks in your possession at the same time.