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Posted: 3/7/2015 2:32:21 AM EDT
[#1]
I believe that as long as it shoots BP, and is Non-Fixed ammunition, it can be either a Muzzleloader OR even a Breech loader without needing a DD stamp. State laws however may vary
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Posted: 3/7/2015 7:29:05 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe that as long as it shoots BP, and is Non-Fixed ammunition, it can be either a Muzzleloader OR even a Breech loader without needing a DD stamp. State laws however may vary It doesn't need to be black powder. An M777A2 or M198 155mm howitzer doesn't fall under the definition of a DD. If it uses separate loading ammunition (projectile, propellant, primer) then it is good to go, muzzle or breech loading. |
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Posted: 3/7/2015 7:53:58 PM EDT
[#3]
Muzzle loading cannons are not DDs, so you're free to build whatever you can imagine.
Bowling ball mortars are quite popular lately, and a hit if you can find enough range to fire them on  |
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Posted: 3/10/2015 2:06:40 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It doesn't need to be black powder. An M777A2 or M198 155mm howitzer doesn't fall under the definition of a DD. If it uses separate loading ammunition (projectile, propellant, primer) then it is good to go, muzzle or breech loading. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I believe that as long as it shoots BP, and is Non-Fixed ammunition, it can be either a Muzzleloader OR even a Breech loader without needing a DD stamp. State laws however may vary It doesn't need to be black powder. An M777A2 or M198 155mm howitzer doesn't fall under the definition of a DD. If it uses separate loading ammunition (projectile, propellant, primer) then it is good to go, muzzle or breech loading. Ok, i was under the impression that it had to be BP..., or a copy of a pre-1898 breechloader to be a non-DD |
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Posted: 3/10/2015 2:17:23 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ok, i was under the impression that it had to be BP..., or a copy of a pre-1898 breechloader to be a non-DD Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I believe that as long as it shoots BP, and is Non-Fixed ammunition, it can be either a Muzzleloader OR even a Breech loader without needing a DD stamp. State laws however may vary It doesn't need to be black powder. An M777A2 or M198 155mm howitzer doesn't fall under the definition of a DD. If it uses separate loading ammunition (projectile, propellant, primer) then it is good to go, muzzle or breech loading. Ok, i was under the impression that it had to be BP..., or a copy of a pre-1898 breechloader to be a non-DD As long as it uses separate loading ammunition, it is good to go. You have to load the primer, powder, and projectile all separately. There are very few guns out there as such that aren't black powder though, so it is a common misconception. |
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Posted: 3/10/2015 6:30:38 PM EDT
[#6]
Does the powder need to be seperate. I thought fixed ammunition had a primer. No primer no fixed ammo and a muzzle loader fireing non fixed ammo is legal. Unless the ATF uses a retarded interpretation of fixed ammunition.
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Posted: 3/10/2015 7:31:49 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does the powder need to be seperate. I thought fixed ammunition had a primer. No primer no fixed ammo and a muzzle loader fireing non fixed ammo is legal. Unless the ATF uses a retarded interpretation of fixed ammunition. I may be mistaken, but if two of three components are together (powder primer, or powder projectile) it is "semi-fixed." Then you are setting yourself up to be subjected to whichever arbitrary way ATF wants to go that day- at least that is what I have been told. |
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Posted: 3/10/2015 8:14:07 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I may be mistaken, but if two of three components are together (powder primer, or powder projectile) it is "semi-fixed." Then you are setting yourself up to be subjected to whichever arbitrary way ATF wants to go that day- at least that is what I have been told. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Does the powder need to be seperate. I thought fixed ammunition had a primer. No primer no fixed ammo and a muzzle loader fireing non fixed ammo is legal. Unless the ATF uses a retarded interpretation of fixed ammunition. I may be mistaken, but if two of three components are together (powder primer, or powder projectile) it is "semi-fixed." Then you are setting yourself up to be subjected to whichever arbitrary way ATF wants to go that day- at least that is what I have been told. I was toying with the idea of making a muzzle loading grenade launcher that used a bag of powder on the base of the projectile and an electrical igniter. Guess I'll just seperate the bag from the projectile. |
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Posted: 3/10/2015 10:08:19 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
<SNIP> ....and an electrical igniter... Is this legal? (This layman wants to know  )
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Posted: 3/10/2015 10:40:48 PM EDT
[#10]
As defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16) the term “antique firearm” means —
… any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica — is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term ‘antique firearm’ shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof. I copied from the ATF page on this. My phone screwed up the formatting a bit. It reads to me that a muzzle loader would be legal using electric ignition. I believe a company makes/made one for hunters in a more conventional caliber. |
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Posted: 3/11/2015 12:52:38 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16) the term “antique firearm” means — … any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica — is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term ‘antique firearm’ shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof. I copied from the ATF page on this. My phone screwed up the formatting a bit. It reads to me that a muzzle loader would be legal using electric ignition. I believe a company makes/made one for hunters in a more conventional caliber. Definition for Firearm and Destructive Device are different though |
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Posted: 3/11/2015 10:24:30 AM EDT
[#12]
Indeed. A destructive device is:
(f)Destructive device The term "destructive device” means (1)any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A)bomb, (B)grenade, (C)rocket having a propellent charge of more than four ounces, (D)missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E)mine, or (F)similar device; (3)any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term "destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684, 4685, or 4686 of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes. I've always been curious about that last part..."...or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes." So if I want to build a 20mm or 25mm rifle, solely to use for sporting purposes, it is exempt from the definition of a DD. But how do I prove that I intend to use it solely for sporting purposes? There certainly is some dangerous overlap between what is and isn't a firearm when you get into DDs or DD like objects. |
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Posted: 3/11/2015 3:01:49 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Indeed. A destructive device is: (f)Destructive device The term "destructive device” means (1)any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A)bomb, (B)grenade, (C)rocket having a propellent charge of more than four ounces, (D)missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E)mine, or (F)similar device; (2)any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and (3)any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term "destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684, 4685, or 4686 of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes. I've always been curious about that last part..."...or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes." So if I want to build a 20mm or 25mm rifle, solely to use for sporting purposes, it is exempt from the definition of a DD. But how do I prove that I intend to use it solely for sporting purposes? There certainly is some dangerous overlap between what is and isn't a firearm when you get into DDs or DD like objects. part of the problem is that there really isnt an actual DEFINITION of what constitutes "Sporting Purposes" we have a member here who wants to use his 60mm Mortar to hunt Deer...does that make his registered DD now not NEED to be an RDD??? If you are building it nto Hunt Deer and Goats at extreme ranges (Mountain to Mountain)..that would certainly fit the COMMON definition of Sporting purposes...but would BATFE see it that way? As with far too many things the definitions are losse enough that they can pretty much do whatever they want, and there isnt much you can do about it |
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Posted: 3/11/2015 5:19:49 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: part of the problem is that there really isnt an actual DEFINITION of what constitutes "Sporting Purposes" we have a member here who wants to use his 60mm Mortar to hunt Deer...does that make his registered DD now not NEED to be an RDD??? If you are building it nto Hunt Deer and Goats at extreme ranges (Mountain to Mountain)..that would certainly fit the COMMON definition of Sporting purposes...but would BATFE see it that way? As with far too many things the definitions are losse enough that they can pretty much do whatever they want, and there isnt much you can do about it Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Indeed. A destructive device is: (f)Destructive device The term "destructive device” means (1)any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A)bomb, (B)grenade, (C)rocket having a propellent charge of more than four ounces, (D)missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E)mine, or (F)similar device; (2)any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and (3)any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term "destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684, 4685, or 4686 of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes. I've always been curious about that last part..."...or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes." So if I want to build a 20mm or 25mm rifle, solely to use for sporting purposes, it is exempt from the definition of a DD. But how do I prove that I intend to use it solely for sporting purposes? There certainly is some dangerous overlap between what is and isn't a firearm when you get into DDs or DD like objects. part of the problem is that there really isnt an actual DEFINITION of what constitutes "Sporting Purposes" we have a member here who wants to use his 60mm Mortar to hunt Deer...does that make his registered DD now not NEED to be an RDD??? If you are building it nto Hunt Deer and Goats at extreme ranges (Mountain to Mountain)..that would certainly fit the COMMON definition of Sporting purposes...but would BATFE see it that way? As with far too many things the definitions are losse enough that they can pretty much do whatever they want, and there isnt much you can do about it Well...it is somewhat more limited than that, because it specifies "rifle". I presume that denotes that it would need to be shoulder fired and have a rifled barrel. So...a Solothurn 20m AT rifle or a PTRS 14.5mm AT rifle would possibly be able to be covered.. |
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Posted: 3/12/2015 2:16:45 PM EDT
[#15]
The sporting clause was put in to exempt the large hunting round popular in African double rifles. ATF has exemptions for particular cartridges not rifles.
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Posted: 3/17/2015 12:53:55 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It doesn't need to be black powder. An M777A2 or M198 155mm howitzer doesn't fall under the definition of a DD. If it uses separate loading ammunition (projectile, propellant, primer) then it is good to go, muzzle or breech loading. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I believe that as long as it shoots BP, and is Non-Fixed ammunition, it can be either a Muzzleloader OR even a Breech loader without needing a DD stamp. State laws however may vary It doesn't need to be black powder. An M777A2 or M198 155mm howitzer doesn't fall under the definition of a DD. If it uses separate loading ammunition (projectile, propellant, primer) then it is good to go, muzzle or breech loading. I've been thinking about that, lately, as well. Been mulling over how difficult it would be to safely reproduce an interrupted thread, breech loading mountain howitzer. |
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Posted: 3/17/2015 4:46:07 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've been thinking about that, lately, as well. Been mulling over how difficult it would be to safely reproduce an interrupted thread, breech loading mountain howitzer. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I believe that as long as it shoots BP, and is Non-Fixed ammunition, it can be either a Muzzleloader OR even a Breech loader without needing a DD stamp. State laws however may vary It doesn't need to be black powder. An M777A2 or M198 155mm howitzer doesn't fall under the definition of a DD. If it uses separate loading ammunition (projectile, propellant, primer) then it is good to go, muzzle or breech loading. I've been thinking about that, lately, as well. Been mulling over how difficult it would be to safely reproduce an interrupted thread, breech loading mountain howitzer. I was looking at that a few months ago, from what I took the best way to do it on a small scale would be to either cut the threads then broach the interruptions, and using square threads as opposed to Acme type |
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Posted: 3/17/2015 10:48:19 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I may be mistaken, but if two of three components are together (powder primer, or powder projectile) it is "semi-fixed." Then you are setting yourself up to be subjected to whichever arbitrary way ATF wants to go that day- at least that is what I have been told. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Does the powder need to be seperate. I thought fixed ammunition had a primer. No primer no fixed ammo and a muzzle loader fireing non fixed ammo is legal. Unless the ATF uses a retarded interpretation of fixed ammunition. I may be mistaken, but if two of three components are together (powder primer, or powder projectile) it is "semi-fixed." Then you are setting yourself up to be subjected to whichever arbitrary way ATF wants to go that day- at least that is what I have been told. I think as long as the primer is separate you are good to go. Similar to a muzzle-loader paper cartridge which contains the bullet and powder. I always considered semi-fixed as ammunition containing all three components, but without the projectile rigidly affixed, so that the powder charge could be adjusted. Like a 105mm |
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Posted: 3/17/2015 10:51:36 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've always been curious about that last part..."...or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes." So if I want to build a 20mm or 25mm rifle, solely to use for sporting purposes, it is exempt from the definition of a DD. But how do I prove that I intend to use it solely for sporting purposes? There certainly is some dangerous overlap between what is and isn't a firearm when you get into DDs or DD like objects. If JD Jones was able to get an exemption for a 50 bmg necked up to 14.5mm, I would think you could probably get and exemption for almost anything as long as the case isn''t the same as an existing military round. |
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Posted: 3/17/2015 10:57:23 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
part of the problem is that there really isnt an actual DEFINITION of what constitutes "Sporting Purposes" we have a member here who wants to use his 60mm Mortar to hunt Deer...does that make his registered DD now not NEED to be an RDD??? If you are building it nto Hunt Deer and Goats at extreme ranges (Mountain to Mountain)..that would certainly fit the COMMON definition of Sporting purposes...but would BATFE see it that way? As with far too many things the definitions are losse enough that they can pretty much do whatever they want, and there isnt much you can do about it Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Indeed. A destructive device is: (f)Destructive device The term "destructive device” means (1)any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A)bomb, (B)grenade, (C)rocket having a propellent charge of more than four ounces, (D)missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E)mine, or (F)similar device; (2)any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and (3)any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term "destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684, 4685, or 4686 of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes. I've always been curious about that last part..."...or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes." So if I want to build a 20mm or 25mm rifle, solely to use for sporting purposes, it is exempt from the definition of a DD. But how do I prove that I intend to use it solely for sporting purposes? There certainly is some dangerous overlap between what is and isn't a firearm when you get into DDs or DD like objects. part of the problem is that there really isnt an actual DEFINITION of what constitutes "Sporting Purposes" we have a member here who wants to use his 60mm Mortar to hunt Deer...does that make his registered DD now not NEED to be an RDD??? If you are building it nto Hunt Deer and Goats at extreme ranges (Mountain to Mountain)..that would certainly fit the COMMON definition of Sporting purposes...but would BATFE see it that way? As with far too many things the definitions are losse enough that they can pretty much do whatever they want, and there isnt much you can do about it There is the ATF letter on reloading 26mm flares for the RV-85 with PVC batons. The ATF responded that firing PVC batons into a berm for recreational purposes is a sporting purpose, however if the round was fired at a person or car, or used to damage property it could be reconsidered a DD round. The letter is on Grogs site. As long as you aren't using it for stupid/unlawful purposes the ATF has actually been lenient with exemptions on the DD side. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:12:29 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is the ATF letter on reloading 26mm flares for the RV-85 with PVC batons. The ATF responded that firing PVC batons into a berm for recreational purposes is a sporting purpose, however if the round was fired at a person or car, or used to damage property it could be reconsidered a DD round. The letter is on Grogs site. As long as you aren't using it for stupid/unlawful purposes the ATF has actually been lenient with exemptions on the DD side. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Indeed. A destructive device is: (f)Destructive device The term "destructive device” means (1)any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A)bomb, (B)grenade, (C)rocket having a propellent charge of more than four ounces, (D)missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E)mine, or (F)similar device; (2)any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and (3)any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term "destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684, 4685, or 4686 of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes. I've always been curious about that last part..."...or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes." So if I want to build a 20mm or 25mm rifle, solely to use for sporting purposes, it is exempt from the definition of a DD. But how do I prove that I intend to use it solely for sporting purposes? There certainly is some dangerous overlap between what is and isn't a firearm when you get into DDs or DD like objects. part of the problem is that there really isnt an actual DEFINITION of what constitutes "Sporting Purposes" we have a member here who wants to use his 60mm Mortar to hunt Deer...does that make his registered DD now not NEED to be an RDD??? If you are building it nto Hunt Deer and Goats at extreme ranges (Mountain to Mountain)..that would certainly fit the COMMON definition of Sporting purposes...but would BATFE see it that way? As with far too many things the definitions are losse enough that they can pretty much do whatever they want, and there isnt much you can do about it There is the ATF letter on reloading 26mm flares for the RV-85 with PVC batons. The ATF responded that firing PVC batons into a berm for recreational purposes is a sporting purpose, however if the round was fired at a person or car, or used to damage property it could be reconsidered a DD round. The letter is on Grogs site. As long as you aren't using it for stupid/unlawful purposes the ATF has actually been lenient with exemptions on the DD side. My Dept had a nifty reload kit for 37mm barrier penetrator trainers that dated to the 50's, i was thinking about making something similar with a wood projo, but maybe engraving on the side "Training Projectile never fire at any person or Structure", but i wasnt sure if it'd fly or not. I never got a chance to take a couple of pics before I retired. |
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