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Posted: 3/18/2017 3:58:08 PM EDT
[#1]
Hometown forum
Double stamps sucks balls Are you simply shopping price point or why used? All four of my 9mm cans were under $400, two were under $250. I'd be weary of the use/abuse of a used can F1 could also be an option |
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Posted: 3/18/2017 4:03:53 PM EDT
[#2]
Gunbroker is about the only place I've seen any for sale, other then the occassional random listed on a local forum.
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Posted: 3/18/2017 4:05:59 PM EDT
[#3]
Would call the shops in GA and see if they have any demo cans in 9 for sale.
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Posted: 3/18/2017 4:09:36 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Would call the shops in GA and see if they have any demo cans in 9 for sale. |
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Posted: 3/18/2017 4:10:42 PM EDT
[#5]
Damn I need to update my location; I am in SC now.
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Posted: 3/18/2017 5:06:13 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hometown forum Double stamps sucks balls Are you simply shopping price point or why used? All four of my 9mm cans were under $400, two were under $250. I'd be weary of the use/abuse of a used can F1 could also be an option Put out a WTB in the EE. Hit up Outdoor trader. maybe start a thread in the GA HTF asking the same question- but not so obvious as a want to buy. |
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Posted: 3/18/2017 5:11:25 PM EDT
[#7]
Try a WTB in the EE, and maybe a site that's more dedicated to silencers. SilencerTalk? Also local gun shops.
Or like Brad suggested, if you're just trying to save a buck and aren't super picky, just wait for something to be on a fire-sale somewhere. |
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Posted: 3/18/2017 6:27:04 PM EDT
[#8]
They pop up in the EE nfa section sometimes, you have to find someone selling in your state out you'll be sol more than likely.
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Posted: 3/18/2017 9:15:21 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Damn I need to update my location; I am in SC now. Every once in awhile he has a lead on somebody wanting to sell one. Sometimes he takes them in on trade-in, but that won't matter if you're under 21. |
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Posted: 3/18/2017 9:43:44 PM EDT
[#10]
I'm 30.... wish I was 21 again!
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Posted: 3/18/2017 9:46:07 PM EDT
[#11]
Then there is no reason whatsoever to look for a used one.
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Posted: 3/19/2017 1:05:03 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
you can check with Tar Heel State Firearms... Every once in awhile he has a lead on somebody wanting to sell one. Sometimes he takes them in on trade-in, but that won't matter if you're under 21. |
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Posted: 3/19/2017 9:32:17 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Then there is no reason whatsoever to look for a used one. |
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Posted: 3/19/2017 9:37:31 AM EDT
[#14]
Y'all correct me if I am wrong, but if the can is currently owned by a trust I could simply draft a trust amendment swapping myself in as grantor and the sole trustee. Ownership of the can therefore does NOT change (remains in the trust), and no 12+ month wait is required. I believe that is perfectly legal based on the law. No different than adding a relative as a trustee, etc. My last form 4 took close to 10 months and I hear wait times are even longer now.
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Posted: 3/19/2017 9:43:04 AM EDT
[#15]
A grantor cannot be changed. However, trustee and beneficiary of a revocable trust can be, and the trust can be made irrevocable so that the grantor is out of the loop.
JPK |
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Posted: 3/19/2017 9:43:22 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Y'all correct me if I am wrong, but if the can is currently owned by a trust I could simply draft a trust amendment swapping myself in as grantor and the sole trustee. Ownership of the can therefore does NOT change (remains in the trust), and no 12+ month wait is required. I believe that is perfectly legal based on the law. No different than adding a relative as a trustee, etc. My last form 4 took close to 10 months and I hear wait times are even longer now. |
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Posted: 3/19/2017 12:37:55 PM EDT
[#17]
This all sounds kinda sketchy to me. I do get the trust transfer as a instrument of ownership. Buisness ownership is commonly "transferred" with LLC documents. Now suppressors I don't know about the potential repercushions of dealing with document changes. Also, if you are thinking about going this route I would make sure the trust was set up correctlly so that would involve a lawyer review and $$ so their goes the potential savings of buying used. I would buy new and know what I had and where it came from.
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Posted: 3/19/2017 1:43:51 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good luck finding someone willing to do that, especially since most people have multiple items in their trust. Even if it were a single item trust, it is naive to think the trust owner is going to pass on the $200 tax stamp savings to the buyer. Silly idea is silly. |
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Posted: 3/19/2017 5:00:40 PM EDT
[#19]
Honestly no one really knows what wait times are. They'll presumably take a several months to get through June/July. But buying kind of slowed after that and DIED after the election.
It's not outside of reason to believe that lead times have diminished to 6-7 months due to the HPA freeze. Bottom line there hasn't been a lot of forms put in over the past 5 months. All this is assuming a static processing rate per day. If examiners/ staff are reduced all bets are off. Still want to reiterate that this is a bad idea. You have to find someone that has a trust with only the one item you seek. And is willing to sell. In your state. And agrees to the grey market transaction. This person probably doesn't exist. |
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Posted: 3/20/2017 10:32:16 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Y'all correct me if I am wrong, but if the can is currently owned by a trust I could simply draft a trust amendment swapping myself in as grantor and the sole trustee. Ownership of the can therefore does NOT change (remains in the trust), and no 12+ month wait is required. I believe that is perfectly legal based on the law. No different than adding a relative as a trustee, etc. My last form 4 took close to 10 months and I hear wait times are even longer now. And I agree with ikickhippies, I think once the 41F forms get processed, you're going to see wait times drop back down to 3-4 months. Maybe even less. My first purchases were 7 years ago and it was under 3 months door to door at the time. The current suppressor market seems to be slow enough for that to come back. |
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Posted: 3/20/2017 12:03:22 PM EDT
[#21]
It would be great to only face a 3 month wait.
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Posted: 3/20/2017 12:14:11 PM EDT
[#22]
That sounds a whole lot like tax evasion. You're knowingly doing a transfer from one person to another, under the guise of a trust to evade wait and transfer taxes. I wouldn't want to be anywhere close to a situation like that.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Y'all correct me if I am wrong, but if the can is currently owned by a trust I could simply draft a trust amendment swapping myself in as grantor and the sole trustee. Ownership of the can therefore does NOT change (remains in the trust), and no 12+ month wait is required. I believe that is perfectly legal based on the law. No different than adding a relative as a trustee, etc. My last form 4 took close to 10 months and I hear wait times are even longer now. |
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Posted: 3/20/2017 5:12:24 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That sounds a whole lot like tax evasion. You're knowingly doing a transfer from one person to another, under the guise of a trust to evade wait and transfer taxes. I wouldn't want to be anywhere close to a situation like that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
That sounds a whole lot like tax evasion. You're knowingly doing a transfer from one person to another, under the guise of a trust to evade wait and transfer taxes. I wouldn't want to be anywhere close to a situation like that. Quoted:
Y'all correct me if I am wrong, but if the can is currently owned by a trust I could simply draft a trust amendment swapping myself in as grantor and the sole trustee. Ownership of the can therefore does NOT change (remains in the trust), and no 12+ month wait is required. I believe that is perfectly legal based on the law. No different than adding a relative as a trustee, etc. My last form 4 took close to 10 months and I hear wait times are even longer now. The trust owns the suppressor, that never changes. There is no transfer. Since the tax is due only if there is a transfer, there is no taxable event and so no tax evasion. Disclaimer- this is NOT legal advice. JPK |
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Posted: 3/20/2017 5:20:47 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The trust owns the suppressor, that never changes. There is no transfer. Since the tax is due only if there is a transfer, there is no taxable event and so no tax evasion. |
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Posted: 3/20/2017 5:42:24 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In that case you would be found not guilty and only owe your legal team tens of thousands of dollars.   
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Posted: 3/20/2017 8:11:39 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am not a prosecutor, but I am reasonably certain I could convince 12 people too stupid to not know how to get out of jury duty the only reason you did this was to avoid the $200. But hey, maybe I can't. In that case you would be found not guilty and only owe your legal team tens of thousands of dollars. Go for it, what could go wrong? We all know that gun regs got to where they are/were because the NRA laid down on the job under (thankfully) long past leadership. We all know that NRA members took back the NRA and the NRA has been making progress since then. The suppressor industry needs to get it together and fight. JPK |
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Posted: 3/20/2017 9:04:47 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Really, it can't be tax evasion. The same owner before and after... But these battles NEED to be fought by the suppressor industry Well you would not be alone. Bill Fleming said "it can't be tax evasion. We will follow the law. Each transfer will be 100% legal, ATF approved on Form 5." Uh how did that work out? He probably thought he was safe, after all his co-conspirators were a DA and a Chief of Police. What could go wrong? |
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Posted: 3/20/2017 9:42:51 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here we go again. Another person who thinks the NFA industry was born 10 years ago. Ignores the 80+ year history, the fact the IRS enforced NFA for almost 40 years, and thinks he has found a loophole to allow tax-free transfers that the IRS has never seen before or prosecuted with Case Law to back it up. ROFL. Well you would not be alone. Bill Fleming said "it can't be tax evasion. We will follow the law. Each transfer will be 100% legal, ATF approved on Form 5." Uh how did that work out? He probably thought he was safe, after all his co-conspirators were a DA and a Chief of Police. What could go wrong? 
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Posted: 3/20/2017 9:45:55 PM EDT
[#29]
For every example you want to cite, i can site a counter example... oops, no I can't. Because the suppressor industry has NOT fought every fight to the fullest extent possible. Much like the NRA didn't fight for years...
Late to The fight, the NRA has made huge gains "recently." Never too late to fight. The 2A was almost a done deal 20yrs ago, with individual rights a nonstarter. Militia purposely misinterpreted to mean organized defense or police... Commerce Clause gone amok. Different now, eh? The NRA got into the game and fought. And won. But where the hell is the suppressor industry? Nowhere to be found. No winning lobbiest on Capital Hill for HPA (or 41f for that matter) no lawsuits re 41f based on APA or 2A, looks like rolling over re the wipes..... And wipes are a suit ripe for an APA fight, as is 41f. Especially with the ATF public notice that new trustees post stamp issuance without photos and fingerprints are permissible. Talking about proving that 41f is arbitrary and capricious... holy crap. But there are examples of what happens in NFA land when you fight to the end. Non funded by the suppressor industry. JPK |
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Posted: 3/20/2017 9:56:57 PM EDT
[#30]
It sounds like the hard part of this would be finding a willing seller. I'll just wait for HPA most likely. And FWIW to the naysayers, I am a lawyer (and I like to think a good one) ;) I'm not worried about being able to stay within the confines of the law. That's why we get paid a lot.
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Posted: 3/20/2017 10:06:40 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's why we get paid a lot. If you get paid so much, wouldn't it be a whole lot easier to stay an extra 30 minutes at the office one night to make up that $200 and then buy new? |
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Posted: 3/20/2017 10:39:27 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It sounds like the hard part of this would be finding a willing seller. I'll just wait for HPA most likely. And FWIW to the naysayers, I am a lawyer (and I like to think a good one) ;) I'm not worried about being able to stay within the confines of the law. That's why we get paid a lot. But where the hell is the suppressor industry? They ought to be fighting on their customers' and potential customers's, i.e. their businesses, behalf. Disclaimer: Notwithstanding the fact that I am a liscensed attorney, what I write or suggest is NOT legal advice. If you want or require legal advice, you should seek the advice of a liscensed attorney in your state, familiar with NFA issues. JPK |
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Posted: 3/21/2017 12:21:40 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And yet here you are looking to buy a used can to save $200... If you get paid so much, wouldn't it be a whole lot easier to stay an extra 30 minutes at the office one night to make up that $200 and then buy new? What you need to do to avoid the tax and wait is to find a guy ready to check out of this world that has a can you want. Have him make you beneficiary of said can for some sort of payment. Then when he blows his head off, you get the can. Easy - Peasy... |
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Posted: 3/21/2017 12:48:50 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Never worked a salary job for a corporation huh? What you need to do to avoid the tax and wait is to find a guy ready to check out of this world that has a can you want. Have him make you beneficiary of said can for some sort of payment. Then when he blows his head off, you get the can. Easy - Peasy... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
And yet here you are looking to buy a used can to save $200... If you get paid so much, wouldn't it be a whole lot easier to stay an extra 30 minutes at the office one night to make up that $200 and then buy new? What you need to do to avoid the tax and wait is to find a guy ready to check out of this world that has a can you want. Have him make you beneficiary of said can for some sort of payment. Then when he blows his head off, you get the can. Easy - Peasy...
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Posted: 3/21/2017 7:37:28 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That got dark fast. You really must work for a corporation. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
And yet here you are looking to buy a used can to save $200... If you get paid so much, wouldn't it be a whole lot easier to stay an extra 30 minutes at the office one night to make up that $200 and then buy new? What you need to do to avoid the tax and wait is to find a guy ready to check out of this world that has a can you want. Have him make you beneficiary of said can for some sort of payment. Then when he blows his head off, you get the can. Easy - Peasy... |
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Posted: 3/21/2017 9:00:49 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Haha yea that got dark! And it's the principle. The money is not an issue but it pisses me off having to wait so damn long. |
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Posted: 3/21/2017 9:09:23 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Haha yea that got dark! And it's the principle. The money is not an issue but it pisses me off having to wait so damn long. |
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Posted: 3/21/2017 9:13:10 AM EDT
[#38]
That whole idea is a situation I wouldn't want to be even peripherally associated with. At best it's tax evasion, at worst it's a PP trying to obtain an NFA item.
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Posted: 3/21/2017 10:30:51 AM EDT
[#39]
He stated he was looking to buy a used can, which by the textbook definition is "obtain in exchange for payment." One could argue exchange for payment constitutes a transfer of property from one entity to another.
Meaning, the intent of the "buy a used can" was to obtain ownership, ie - transfer an item TO the buyer. Changing a trust's wording and who is responsible after paying money for a good could constitute a TRANSFER of the item under the "trust" as a shield. Here's what I said " You're knowingly doing a transfer from one person to another, under the guise of a trust to evade wait and transfer taxes. What I'm saying is a prosecuting attorney could ABSOLUTELY argue this was to evade a transfer tax. The ATF says shoe strings are MGs and rubber gaskets are silencers. They say magically a pistol becomes a short barrel rifle if you let it touch your shoulder. Does anyone REALLY think with the opinions the ATF states that they wouldn't go after something like this? You may win with a lawyer, but that is going to cost time and money. That's too much risk assumed to me over $200. |
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Posted: 3/21/2017 10:45:53 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Never worked a salary job for a corporation huh? |
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Posted: 3/21/2017 10:47:18 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The money is not an issue but it pisses me off having to wait so damn long. FWIW, nobody really knows what wait times are for forms submitted right now. Many of us have specualated it might only be a few months since the backlog is getting cleared. I just got forms in that were submitted June 10. So 1 month to go! |
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Posted: 3/21/2017 2:41:40 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the wait is what you are tying to avoid you could do like some local guys I know with good jobs (denist, lawyer and a doctor) get your class 3 SOT then no wait. |
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Posted: 3/21/2017 3:53:58 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do you know of good threads on this topic? It's something I'd like to explore. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If the wait is what you are tying to avoid you could do like some local guys I know with good jobs (denist, lawyer and a doctor) get your class 3 SOT then no wait. |
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Posted: 3/21/2017 8:07:36 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It would be great to only face a 3 month wait. |
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Posted: 3/21/2017 9:04:53 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That got dark fast. You really must work for a corporation. |
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Posted: 3/21/2017 9:13:36 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He stated he was looking to buy a used can, which by the textbook definition is "obtain in exchange for payment." One could argue exchange for payment constitutes a transfer of property from one entity to another. Meaning, the intent of the "buy a used can" was to obtain ownership, ie - transfer an item TO the buyer. Changing a trust's wording and who is responsible after paying money for a good could constitute a TRANSFER of the item under the "trust" as a shield. Here's what I said " You're knowingly doing a transfer from one person to another, under the guise of a trust to evade wait and transfer taxes. What I'm saying is a prosecuting attorney could ABSOLUTELY argue this was to evade a transfer tax. The ATF says shoe strings are MGs and rubber gaskets are silencers. They say magically a pistol becomes a short barrel rifle if you let it touch your shoulder. Does anyone REALLY think with the opinions the ATF states that they wouldn't go after something like this? You may win with a lawyer, but that is going to cost time and money. That's too much risk assumed to me over $200. JPK |
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Posted: 3/21/2017 10:23:08 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And that has what to do with a guy who claims to get "paid a lot", but cannot afford $200? I could spend an extra 3 hours a night, 5 nights a week, 52 weeks a year. Maybe you get a promo, but spending extra hours is hardly a guarantee of that. Maybe you get an extra 1% on your yearly raise. Either, way when on salary, working extra hours is sure as hell no way to make extra cash within any finite time period. |
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Posted: 3/21/2017 11:21:58 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It has to do with this part, "stay an extra 30 minutes at the office one night to make up that $200" I could spend an extra 3 hours a night, 5 nights a week, 52 weeks a year. Maybe you get a promo, but spending extra hours is hardly a guarantee of that. Maybe you get an extra 1% on your yearly raise. Either, way when on salary, working extra hours is sure as hell no way to make extra cash within any finite time period. |
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Posted: 3/22/2017 9:11:49 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If there is no transfer then there is no transfer tax. It really is that simple. JPK "Over and over again courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging one's affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everybody does so, rich or poor; and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands: taxes are forced exactions, not voluntary contributions. To demand more in the name of morals is mere cant." "Anyone may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Trrasury" (Citations omitted) (excuse iPhone typos) |
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Posted: 3/22/2017 9:21:30 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Learned Hand said it best: "Over and over again courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging one's affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everybody does so, rich or poor; and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands: taxes are forced exactions, not voluntary contributions. To demand more in the name of morals is mere cant." "Anyone may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Trrasury" (Citations omitted) (excuse iPhone typos) OP is so buried under law school debt that another $200 for a transfer kills his deal. No one but a recent law grad would quote Learned Hand. |
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