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Posted: 10/11/2016 1:44:56 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Indecently purchased a SiCo Hybrid for some big bore fun and went ahead and Form 1'd a TC contender for big bore fun. I have been trying to decide on barrel length for dedicated subsonic hunting with the 700gr Lehigh controlled fracturing bullet. I'll be going with a 1/12 twist barrel from match grade machine but had a few questions for the more experienced reloaders. With trailboss or red dot powder will I run into secondary explosive efffect with the large case capacity of the 45/70? At what barrel length would trailboss and and red dot achieve complete burn? How quiet can I expect the subsonic 45/70 loads to be? I'm not looking for mouse fart, but dog fart or human fart quiet is acceptable. I'm shooting for the sound of a high psi air hose being disconnected. Thanks for the input. I believe I was one of the first people around to build a 45/70 titanium suppressor and have worked up several handloads. Since I use a Marlin 1895SBL I can't help ya with the 700g pill but their is plenty of load data for pills that big for the Ruger #1. Since your not pushing pressures you don't have much to worry about besides not having enough powder so the projectile exits the barrel. Here is a link of mine suppressed. https://youtu.be/B9eKob5U2R8 |
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Posted: 10/11/2016 4:05:58 PM EDT
[#2]
Neat project! Kinda puts my subsonic .38 Specials to shame
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Posted: 10/12/2016 9:53:55 AM EDT
[#3]
Don't know about the barrel length for a full burn, but there is no issue using trail boss in a large volume case like a 45-70. It is a very forgiving powder, as long as you follow one rule. Never load a compressed load.
From Hodgdon Quote History Listed below we show a few examples of such loads throughout the Reloading Data Center, but the fun doesn't stop there. If you
don't see Trail Boss data for your favorite cartridge we have a formula for developing loads for all cartridges and it's simple to follow. This formula may be used in both rifle and pistol applications: Find where the base of the bullet to be loaded is located in the case and make a mark on the outside of the case at this location. Then fill the case to that mark with Trail Boss, pour into the scale pan and weigh. This is your maximum load. Pressures will be below the maximum allowed for this cartridge and perfectly safe to use! Take 70% of this powder charge weight (multiply the maximum load from step 1 by .7), and that is your starting load. Start with this beginning load and work up to your maximum charge, all the while searching for the most accurate reduced load. Once found, the fun begins! They list some load data for it under their trapdoor loads. At trapdoor pressures they are running a starting load of 8 grains up to a max of 10 grains with a 485gr bullet and getting 804 fps. So no issues with small amounts of powder. With a modern action I would do the math Hodgdon recommends and see what that gives you then adjust from there. |
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Posted: 10/12/2016 11:39:58 AM EDT
[#4]
Are you sure that 1-in-12" is fast enough? A 700gr bullet is going to be pretty long.
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Posted: 10/12/2016 12:59:24 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are you sure that 1-in-12" is fast enough? A 700gr bullet is going to be pretty long. The common twist rate is 1:20 for all 45-70 refiles. So yes, 1:12 is very fast for the 45-70 |
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Posted: 10/12/2016 1:52:24 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The common twist rate is 1:20 for all 45-70 refiles. So yes, 1:12 is very fast for the 45-70 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Are you sure that 1-in-12" is fast enough? A 700gr bullet is going to be pretty long. The common twist rate is 1:20 for all 45-70 refiles. So yes, 1:12 is very fast for the 45-70 The standard bullet weight for a 45-70 is not 700 grains, therefore saying that 1-in-12" is fast may be inaccurate. My rough calculations came up with a minimum twist of 1-in-10" for subsonic bullets that weight with essentially full wadcutter profile. I may be wrong, but I am concerned about keyholes and baffle strikes. |
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Posted: 10/12/2016 3:42:52 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I believe I was one of the first people around to build a 45/70 titanium suppressor and have worked up several handloads. Since I use a Marlin 1895SBL I can't help ya with the 700g pill but their is plenty of load data for pills that big for the Ruger #1. Since your not pushing pressures you don't have much to worry about besides not having enough powder so the projectile exits the barrel. Here is a link of mine suppressed. https://youtu.be/B9eKob5U2R8 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Indecently purchased a SiCo Hybrid for some big bore fun and went ahead and Form 1'd a TC contender for big bore fun. I have been trying to decide on barrel length for dedicated subsonic hunting with the 700gr Lehigh controlled fracturing bullet. I'll be going with a 1/12 twist barrel from match grade machine but had a few questions for the more experienced reloaders. With trailboss or red dot powder will I run into secondary explosive efffect with the large case capacity of the 45/70? At what barrel length would trailboss and and red dot achieve complete burn? How quiet can I expect the subsonic 45/70 loads to be? I'm not looking for mouse fart, but dog fart or human fart quiet is acceptable. I'm shooting for the sound of a high psi air hose being disconnected. Thanks for the input. I believe I was one of the first people around to build a 45/70 titanium suppressor and have worked up several handloads. Since I use a Marlin 1895SBL I can't help ya with the 700g pill but their is plenty of load data for pills that big for the Ruger #1. Since your not pushing pressures you don't have much to worry about besides not having enough powder so the projectile exits the barrel. Here is a link of mine suppressed. https://youtu.be/B9eKob5U2R8 I like your set up! Thanks for the vid link, it's hard to tell, but it sounds fairly quiet. |
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Posted: 10/12/2016 3:44:08 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't know about the barrel length for a full burn, but there is no issue using trail boss in a large volume case like a 45-70. It is a very forgiving powder, as long as you follow one rule. Never load a compressed load. From Hodgdon They list some load data for it under their trapdoor loads. At trapdoor pressures they are running a starting load of 8 grains up to a max of 10 grains with a 485gr bullet and getting 804 fps. So no issues with small amounts of powder. With a modern action I would do the math Hodgdon recommends and see what that gives you then adjust from there. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't know about the barrel length for a full burn, but there is no issue using trail boss in a large volume case like a 45-70. It is a very forgiving powder, as long as you follow one rule. Never load a compressed load. From Hodgdon Listed below we show a few examples of such loads throughout the Reloading Data Center, but the fun doesn't stop there. If you
don't see Trail Boss data for your favorite cartridge we have a formula for developing loads for all cartridges and it's simple to follow. This formula may be used in both rifle and pistol applications: Find where the base of the bullet to be loaded is located in the case and make a mark on the outside of the case at this location. Then fill the case to that mark with Trail Boss, pour into the scale pan and weigh. This is your maximum load. Pressures will be below the maximum allowed for this cartridge and perfectly safe to use! Take 70% of this powder charge weight (multiply the maximum load from step 1 by .7), and that is your starting load. Start with this beginning load and work up to your maximum charge, all the while searching for the most accurate reduced load. Once found, the fun begins! They list some load data for it under their trapdoor loads. At trapdoor pressures they are running a starting load of 8 grains up to a max of 10 grains with a 485gr bullet and getting 804 fps. So no issues with small amounts of powder. With a modern action I would do the math Hodgdon recommends and see what that gives you then adjust from there. Thanks for the info! I have 2 cans of trailboss, looks like ill be buying more IF i can find it. |
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Posted: 10/12/2016 3:46:31 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The standard bullet weight for a 45-70 is not 700 grains, therefore saying that 1-in-12" is fast may be inaccurate. My rough calculations came up with a minimum twist of 1-in-10" for subsonic bullets that weight with essentially full wadcutter profile. I may be wrong, but I am concerned about keyholes and baffle strikes. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Are you sure that 1-in-12" is fast enough? A 700gr bullet is going to be pretty long. The common twist rate is 1:20 for all 45-70 refiles. So yes, 1:12 is very fast for the 45-70 The standard bullet weight for a 45-70 is not 700 grains, therefore saying that 1-in-12" is fast may be inaccurate. My rough calculations came up with a minimum twist of 1-in-10" for subsonic bullets that weight with essentially full wadcutter profile. I may be wrong, but I am concerned about keyholes and baffle strikes. I looked into a faster twist barrel, but match grade machine only offers 1:12 for the contender. Is there a way to calculate powder burn or PSI per inch of barrel? Could be really helpful before i get a barrel cut. |
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Posted: 10/12/2016 3:47:02 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The standard bullet weight for a 45-70 is not 700 grains, therefore saying that 1-in-12" is fast may be inaccurate. My rough calculations came up with a minimum twist of 1-in-10" for subsonic bullets that weight with essentially full wadcutter profile. I may be wrong, but I am concerned about keyholes and baffle strikes. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Are you sure that 1-in-12" is fast enough? A 700gr bullet is going to be pretty long. The common twist rate is 1:20 for all 45-70 refiles. So yes, 1:12 is very fast for the 45-70 The standard bullet weight for a 45-70 is not 700 grains, therefore saying that 1-in-12" is fast may be inaccurate. My rough calculations came up with a minimum twist of 1-in-10" for subsonic bullets that weight with essentially full wadcutter profile. I may be wrong, but I am concerned about keyholes and baffle strikes. It is fast for the 45-70 Govt and that is accurate. I haven't messed with anything over 525g in my 1895 because you have to worry about OAL. I used Unique for majority of my loads because I load hot and subsonic with it. Single shot 45-70 load data is what you need if you can find it for a 700g projectile. I'll look in my books. If I find any ill let ya know. |
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Posted: 10/12/2016 4:07:31 PM EDT
[#11]
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Posted: 10/13/2016 2:20:18 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is fast for the 45-70 Govt and that is accurate. I haven't messed with anything over 525g in my 1895 because you have to worry about OAL. I used Unique for majority of my loads because I load hot and subsonic with it. Single shot 45-70 load data is what you need if you can find it for a 700g projectile. I'll look in my books. If I find any ill let ya know. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Are you sure that 1-in-12" is fast enough? A 700gr bullet is going to be pretty long. The common twist rate is 1:20 for all 45-70 refiles. So yes, 1:12 is very fast for the 45-70 The standard bullet weight for a 45-70 is not 700 grains, therefore saying that 1-in-12" is fast may be inaccurate. My rough calculations came up with a minimum twist of 1-in-10" for subsonic bullets that weight with essentially full wadcutter profile. I may be wrong, but I am concerned about keyholes and baffle strikes. It is fast for the 45-70 Govt and that is accurate. I haven't messed with anything over 525g in my 1895 because you have to worry about OAL. I used Unique for majority of my loads because I load hot and subsonic with it. Single shot 45-70 load data is what you need if you can find it for a 700g projectile. I'll look in my books. If I find any ill let ya know. Thanks partner! I'm not married to the Lehigh 720gr, but I would prefer to shoot the heaviest projectile that I can accurately shoot at 70 yards. As usual I plan on loading and testing without the can first and checking for keyhole issues. I may also use it as a lightweight elk gun with supers if I can work it out. |
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Posted: 10/13/2016 9:39:53 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks partner! I'm not married to the Lehigh 720gr, but I would prefer to shoot the heaviest projectile that I can accurately shoot at 70 yards. As usual I plan on loading and testing without the can first and checking for keyhole issues. I may also use it as a lightweight elk gun with supers if I can work it out. I would consider accuracy to be paramount. I am not familiar with the bullet you are talking about, but I would consider just a good gas-checked ~400 grain bullet. Trying to squeeze the last ounce of energy out of the gun won't translate as well on the target as you might imagine. Good luck finding a reliable expanding bullet. I have been working with subsonic .429" bullets out of the 44 magnum with the 300 grain XTP. Now have to work up a load I can cast in the same general range. I don't think there is anything in North America that I worry about being able to take with the gun and I can use a regular 45 ACP suppressor to do it. |
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Posted: 10/18/2016 7:53:27 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would consider accuracy to be paramount. I am not familiar with the bullet you are talking about, but I would consider just a good gas-checked ~400 grain bullet. Trying to squeeze the last ounce of energy out of the gun won't translate as well on the target as you might imagine. Good luck finding a reliable expanding bullet. I have been working with subsonic .429" bullets out of the 44 magnum with the 300 grain XTP. Now have to work up a load I can cast in the same general range. I don't think there is anything in North America that I worry about being able to take with the gun and I can use a regular 45 ACP suppressor to do it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Thanks partner! I'm not married to the Lehigh 720gr, but I would prefer to shoot the heaviest projectile that I can accurately shoot at 70 yards. As usual I plan on loading and testing without the can first and checking for keyhole issues. I may also use it as a lightweight elk gun with supers if I can work it out. I would consider accuracy to be paramount. I am not familiar with the bullet you are talking about, but I would consider just a good gas-checked ~400 grain bullet. Trying to squeeze the last ounce of energy out of the gun won't translate as well on the target as you might imagine. Good luck finding a reliable expanding bullet. I have been working with subsonic .429" bullets out of the 44 magnum with the 300 grain XTP. Now have to work up a load I can cast in the same general range. I don't think there is anything in North America that I worry about being able to take with the gun and I can use a regular 45 ACP suppressor to do it. Not to hijack, but could you pm me your 300gr xtp info and any problems you are having with the cast loads? |
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Posted: 10/18/2016 4:53:00 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not to hijack, but could you pm me your 300gr xtp info and any problems you are having with the cast loads? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Thanks partner! I'm not married to the Lehigh 720gr, but I would prefer to shoot the heaviest projectile that I can accurately shoot at 70 yards. As usual I plan on loading and testing without the can first and checking for keyhole issues. I may also use it as a lightweight elk gun with supers if I can work it out. Not to hijack, but could you pm me your 300gr xtp info and any problems you are having with the cast loads? I have a video series going. I have a load worked up with around 18 grains of H4227 IIRC. I would have to crack the safe to get the exact load. Problem is, it was a bit too fast and didn't stabilize from the Winchester 94AE I was working it up for. I had not even reached 1100 fps and I got some keyholing. I ended up buying a CVA Hunter with a 1-in-20 twist. I need the load to function in my Ruger Carbine and Revolvers as well, but the Rugers all have quicker twist. That's the point I am at now. Hopefully I will have more time this winter to work on it more. Might switch powders. The cast bullet I am thinking of is the Lee 310 grain with a gas check, though I might buy a few hundred from bullet companies to see which one works best. I do have a max-load XTP that I was using out of my revolver in Alaska. It was pretty hot and I only shot it out of my Blackhawk. |
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Posted: 10/18/2016 7:11:35 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a video series going. I have a load worked up with around 18 grains of H4227 IIRC. I would have to crack the safe to get the exact load. Problem is, it was a bit too fast and didn't stabilize from the Winchester 94AE I was working it up for. I had not even reached 1100 fps and I got some keyholing. I ended up buying a CVA Hunter with a 1-in-20 twist. I need the load to function in my Ruger Carbine and Revolvers as well, but the Rugers all have quicker twist. That's the point I am at now. Hopefully I will have more time this winter to work on it more. Might switch powders. The cast bullet I am thinking of is the Lee 310 grain with a gas check, though I might buy a few hundred from bullet companies to see which one works best. I do have a max-load XTP that I was using out of my revolver in Alaska. It was pretty hot and I only shot it out of my Blackhawk. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Thanks partner! I'm not married to the Lehigh 720gr, but I would prefer to shoot the heaviest projectile that I can accurately shoot at 70 yards. As usual I plan on loading and testing without the can first and checking for keyhole issues. I may also use it as a lightweight elk gun with supers if I can work it out. Not to hijack, but could you pm me your 300gr xtp info and any problems you are having with the cast loads? I have a video series going. I have a load worked up with around 18 grains of H4227 IIRC. I would have to crack the safe to get the exact load. Problem is, it was a bit too fast and didn't stabilize from the Winchester 94AE I was working it up for. I had not even reached 1100 fps and I got some keyholing. I ended up buying a CVA Hunter with a 1-in-20 twist. I need the load to function in my Ruger Carbine and Revolvers as well, but the Rugers all have quicker twist. That's the point I am at now. Hopefully I will have more time this winter to work on it more. Might switch powders. The cast bullet I am thinking of is the Lee 310 grain with a gas check, though I might buy a few hundred from bullet companies to see which one works best. I do have a max-load XTP that I was using out of my revolver in Alaska. It was pretty hot and I only shot it out of my Blackhawk. Thanks. I ordered some Sierra 300gr JSPs before I did much research. I bought a few pounds of Unique, because Tom Denall uses that with 300gr cast subs, in his Silent Destroyers. I found some 300gr molds on the Cast Boolits forum, that are supposed to do great with my 77/44. We will see, lol. |
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Posted: 10/19/2016 2:50:28 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I ordered some Sierra 300gr JSPs before I did much research. I bought a few pounds of Unique, because Tom Denall uses that with 300gr cast subs, in his Silent Destroyers. I found some 300gr molds on the Cast Boolits forum, that are supposed to do great with my 77/44. We will see, lol. Would love to hear a end result. Did you say what can you were using? |
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Posted: 10/19/2016 6:34:40 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Would love to hear a end result. Did you say what can you were using? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I ordered some Sierra 300gr JSPs before I did much research. I bought a few pounds of Unique, because Tom Denall uses that with 300gr cast subs, in his Silent Destroyers. I found some 300gr molds on the Cast Boolits forum, that are supposed to do great with my 77/44. We will see, lol. Would love to hear a end result. Did you say what can you were using? I'm waiting on my form 4 for a liberty cosmic. I bought it in may, so who knows when that will be... |
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Posted: 10/20/2016 9:51:20 AM EDT
[#19]
interested in subs for my marlin 45-70
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Posted: 10/21/2016 12:53:39 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
interested in subs for my marlin 45-70 +1 I have only used hornady sxt and some cowboy rounds I found at my LGS. My SBL is pretty brutal with the hornady ammo. My buddy shot it once and handed it back, "no thanks" was the look on his face. Looking for a good round for pig and hoping the hybrid will take some of the stink off the recoil.  I was even considing running the sico brake on her.
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