I remember reading something like you cant have a 100% 1:1 size of your tax stamp copy. How do you guys carry copies?

I think I remember reading 1/4 the size laminated? And do I need to carry trust even though my trust name includes my last name? Thanks

I thought we just said no color copies

I have a small plastic binder that I keep in my truck that contains all of my stamps.
I also have an electronic copy of each in my phone.
I have not heard of an issue with color copies. If there is an issue with color copies or color scans, let it be known we have hit an all time low of ATF bs.

I didn't read anything on here? I just have some posts saved from a few months ago. I am just wondering what the rules are, and if 1/4 sized copies are acceptable?

Something about preproducing a controlled document or something.

I've got some 1/4 size laminated copies, OP

The only thing I remember is don't laminate the original.

Copies are just that, copies as the stamp is actually a stamp with the exception of the efiled forms.  Then it is just a printed out copy of the electronic version.

I keep a 100% color copy with my originals when I take it shooting and if asked by the range operators/owners will show them the copy. I've had too many bad experiences with non-NFA people putting their grubby fucking fingers on the stamp etc to even allow anyone but a LEO/ATF man look at the original.

If keeping a 100% copy is wrong, I too would love to know about it.

The thing is you aren't trying to forge your stamp to use on a second firearm, so it would be really, really hard to show any criminal intent.  

I have full sized laminated copies that I no longer carry.  I carry reduced, wallet/credit card sized cards that are laminated.  They have been good enough every time I needed to show them.  You have to understand that most idiots have no idea what they are looking at when they see your form.  Having a size to small to read without magnification really proves the point.  Even beyond that, they have no idea if the paperwork matches the item you have, and they have no idea of the engraving requirements.  

The only cops that have asked to see them were acquaintances that had never seen one before and really had no idea about what the laws really were.  

Lately, I found that they are simply asking if I have paperwork and really do not want to see it.  I think they have realized they have no idea what to look for.  

You guys sure do over-think these things.

Before I got my stamp I just read a few times people making 3/4 copies or full copies stamped "COPY". I think what the guy above said is probably the reason, which is why most say black and white.

As BigWaylon said...

From the Secret Service



As for the penalty... a lot of counterfeiting laws regarding things like revenue stamps make a distinction between someone knowingly vs unknowingly falling afoul of the law and make distinctions b/w having a possible lawful purpose (ie. I simply wanted a copy so I could keep the original safe) vs intentional criminal acts like trying to sell, defraud, tax evasion, etc.... Things like cutting out your original stamp and putting it on a new form 4/1 in an attempt to sneak one by is the kind of thing that will put you in the federal crosshairs. IANAL, I've just read a decent amount at one point, everyone can do the same. I highly doubt anyone would be convicted (much less charged) for innocently making a color copy. Maybe if you did something else totally egregious and they were just tacking on frivolous charges. No reason not to simply make B&W copies.

i keep colored copys with me and a copy of the trust. I was only asked for it once and when the guy had no clue what he was looking at i took it from him

18 U.S.C. 504 provides the exemptions to the counterfeiting statutes if you want the actual language, but the Secret Service summary is correct.

Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, the following are permitted:
(1) The printing, publishing, or importation, or the making or importation of the necessary plates for such printing or publishing, of illustrations of—
(A) postage stamps of the United States,
(B) revenue stamps of the United States,
(C) any other obligation or other security of the United States, and
(D) postage stamps, revenue stamps, notes, bonds, and any other obligation or other security of any foreign government, bank, or corporation.
Illustrations permitted by the foregoing provisions of this section shall be made in accordance with the following conditions—
(i) all illustrations shall be in black and white, except that illustrations of postage stamps issued by the United States or by any foreign government and stamps issued under the Migratory Bird Hunting Stamp Act of 1934 may be in color;
(ii) all illustrations (including illustrations of uncanceled postage stamps in color and illustrations of stamps issued under the Migratory Bird Hunting Stamp Act of 1934 in color) shall be of a size less than three-fourths or more than one and one-half, in linear dimension, of each part of any matter so illustrated which is covered by subparagraph (A), (B), (C), or (D) of this paragraph, except that black and white illustrations of postage and revenue stamps issued by the United States or by any foreign government and colored illustrations of canceled postage stamps issued by the United States may be in the exact linear dimension in which the stamps were issued; and
(iii) the negatives and plates used in making the illustrations shall be destroyed after their final use in accordance with this section.
The Secretary of the Treasury shall prescribe regulations to permit color illustrations of such currency of the United States as the Secretary determines may be appropriate for such purposes.
(2) The provisions of this section shall not permit the reproduction of illustrations of obligations or other securities, by or through electronic methods used for the acquisition, recording, retrieval, transmission, or reproduction of any obligation or other security, unless such use is authorized by the Secretary of the Treasury. The Secretary shall establish a system to ensure that the legitimate use of such electronic methods and retention of such reproductions by businesses, hobbyists, press or others shall not be unduly restricted.
(3) The making or importation of motion-picture films, microfilms, or slides, for projection upon a screen or for use in telecasting, of postage and revenue stamps and other obligations and securities of the United States, and postage and revenue stamps, notes, bonds, and other obligations or securities of any foreign government, bank, or corporation. No prints or other reproductions shall be made from such films or slides, except for the purposes of paragraph (1), without the permission of the Secretary of the Treasury.
For the purposes of this section the term “postage stamp” includes postage meter stamps.

Stupid question an not trying to hijack.... Do I have to keep both pages with me even though one is blank since it is on a trust or do I just need the front page with stamp on it?

Just the stamp I think, but I keep a copy of my trust with me when NFA-playing just to be on the safe side because the vast, vast, vast majority of Police officers have absolutely no clue as to the NFA, and if I can pull out my trust too if they're not going to just accept the stamped page with my name on it.

My trust is in my name, so I can just whip out an ID. I dunno how that works if you name your trust something different, however.

The only time I was asked to see it by an actual L.E. He saw the page with the stamp and said it was good.

I believe both. FedEx (Kinkos) made me 4 double sided 1/2 size laminated copies for like $3

I also took photos of all pages. On my phone

And I should add, color copies can be used if they are of cancelled stamps, when the examiner writes on your original stamp in ball point pen ink, It cancels it.

I see that now. I retract my previous post.

I have originals and a full size color copy in the safe. B&W Copy with trust in a binder and 1/4 size laminated in each range/gun bag.  

MAHA

The original stamp is cancelled.  I keep a scan on my phones and have color copies & the originals in a safe place, not with my guns. In my state, class III is illegal and it is only a defense of prosecution to have gone through the Form 1/4 process.  I am not showing my actual stamped paperwork to anybody but my lawyer or a federal agent.  Never been asked, though, and I don't expect to.

Reason for no color is they have some bad ass color copiers out that can make copies that you'd really have to look at if you didn't know any better. I'm sure the technology has improved since that was 7 years ago.  So just make your B&W copies keep it with trust in range bag or the case you keep weapon in when you Goto the range. Scan a copy to keep in your phone since we never forget that sucker beefier leaving the house, lol.

Yeah, but the tax stamp is a STAMP.  It's a physical addition to the paper.  The copy is just a flat sheet with the image of the stamp.  The color scan is just, uh, 1's and 0's.

People... The Stamp is canceled. It makes no difference how or what you copiy it with. and... If it was efiled you already have a copy of a copy sent from ATF. It does not matter one bit. It is a receipt that a tax was paid on a specific item. Nothing more.  Just make a copy with legible writing that some nit wit can read and call it a day.

I think people over think this.  I just keep a scanned image of my form4's on my phone, in the very unlikely event an ATF agent ever contacts me out in the field wanting to see my paperwork.  Anyone else can FOAD if they want to see my paperwork.

 
That's what I do.


Digital copies, front and back on my phone.


Originals in the safe.

Except in the case of EForms now though.

I printed mine off on works Xerox machine and they printed in color by default since that is how it was sent and it was amazing the quality of the printed form as the "stamp" looked real.

I keep color copies without any fear of being imprisoned. I have never seen a secret service agent at my range...

Unless you plan on doing something really stupid it should be a non issue!

Are you sure that Colorado is not a "defense of prosecution" state?  By that, I mean that machineguns are banned by C.R.S. 18-12-102 and the defense of prosecution would fall under paragraph 5.  That means it's still illegal and if a local law enforcement officer demands to see evidence of your form 4 and you do not produce it, he can arrest you.  I am more than happy to let the local cops know that it is legal and even let them look at the copies I keep on my phone or phone the ATF and ask them... but I don't get all paranoid about it.  There is no requirement that I am aware of that REQUIRES that you keep any particular copy in any particular place.  In fact, just the fact that a form 1 or 4 was filed is defense of prosecution.  Not having one does not make you a felon; you can always get a copy.

Most asking for "papers" dont know what they are asking for, what they will be looking at, or how to verify the weapon is what is listed on the form.

But they probably aren't morons.  Just show them the form and let them check serial numbers.  Only time this ever happened wasn't to me, but I was at an MG shoot and somebody complained about the .50 caliber tracers saying we were 'shooting at airplanes'.  Anyway, cops show up and start checking form 4's.  They get about ten into what was probably 50 or so class III forms and my buddy pulled one cop aside and suggested they not waste their time.  They left after ten.

I make full color copies.

Zero fucks given.

I'll fight that shit in court any day of the week.

I keep .pdf copies on my phone.  No hard copies.  There is not any requirement to carry them anyway.  I've been in the NFA game for almost 30 years and have never been asked by anyone to see them.

OOPS, Oh well. I have B&W copies (cheaper to print) with COPY Written across the top and bottom.

I made a huge photoshop document, copied/pasted full size hi res. scans onto the document and then printed the document on a normal sized piece of paper that stays in my wallet. No ones ever asked to see them and if they do and have an issue I'll take my toys and go home. If it's LE then they can come with me and look at the originals at my house.

Given you don't get originals anymore, just PDF attachments for both Form 4 and Form 1, at least that's all I've gotten for the last 2+ years which includes 6 F4's and 7 F1's, I'm finding it hard to believe that there's any restrictions on printing.     I print a copy to keep with the trust and copies that are stored in my range bag.   The PDF's I just email to myself on a couple of accounts so in the event that I lose all my copies and gmail pulls a Hillary with their email servers I can still query the NSA for a copy.

In other words, if you want a copy to hand out to any passerby's and remember by law only the ATF has the legal right to ask to see your paperwork regardless of what a RO or LEO might say, then print that bitch in whatever size and in 2 colors or a million on tissue paper or vellum, laminated or not.

I just keep the original on my cell phone. If a local LEO won't accept that version as legit I doubt they'd accept a printed version. I can always log into the ATF website and show them the one right in the ATF records if all else fails.

The only time I was ever asked about it was from an off duty Marshal, it was at the range next to the police training center, and when I showed him the laminated 1/4 size copies he said "now that is a great idea".
He really got a blast out of firing my suppressed SBR.  He couldn't get over how hot the SpecWar got!

Maybe I'm paranoid, or just knowing some of the guys I work with, but I'm not handing any 'ol LE my unlocked cell phone and have them leave my sight while they go back to their cruiser and call dispatch to log that information ... and then proceed to rifle through the rest of my phone.

Paper copies in sheet protectors for me.

 
I use an old iphone3 that has been restored to factory settings and deactivated. Blank....except to hold both images and .pdfs of my NFA paperwork. That's it, nothing else. No contacts, photos, videos, apps, call history, texts.....nothing.






It goes in my range bag.



 


I do have copies on my iphone6 as well.


 

I think you are over thinking it... Perseption is reality, so ask yourself what does my intent appear to be. Does it look like I am trying to pass a copy off as a real document (forgery)? Or does it look like i am trying to remain legal while protecting and preserving the original document from loss or damage.

Now we have to worry about the copies being colored??? Geez this shit gets ridiculous. All my copies are color because my printer automatically prints color for anything that has color on it.

 
I'm not getting why a color copy of a color document is a problem.


Its obvious its a copy, hell you could even watermark it....but the stamp itself is either A) a stamp that's clearly a copy and not a glued on stamp or B) an actual, visible stamp stuck on the original document.

Agreed, but it's easily changed to greyscale. That being said, I see absolutely no reason to carry anything.

Originals are in a fireproof safe. Copies on the phone and laminated scaled down copies in the wallet. If you efile you don't get an actual stamp. The only people who are actually allowed to ask for them are an agent of the ATF. You don't have to show them to anyone else if you don't want to.

Black & white full size photo copy.

That being said, I've shown ATF field agents color copies, 1/4 sans, phone docs, and bl photocopies. ALL ATF I've dealt with have been extremely cool and easy going. I would be SHOCKED if anyone from ATF jammed you up about a tax stamp. You've been approved, you have the can, they look at the serial number and they're happy. I think it's funny people worry so much about the ATF, if you're not doing anything wrong they won't bother you.

Local LE on the other hand suck! Most of them don't know what they're looking at and seem to like their power over you.

In theory yes, but you might as well just show them the stamp and tell them to call ATF they want. You'll be out of there sooner. Trust me, once in the NFA world, ATF is your friend when it comes to this stuff.

As was told to me once, "you may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride."  There is no requirement to carry the forms with you, originals or copies.  However, it's easy enough to make copies and throw a few in the range bag.  As was mentioned, the stamp is cancelled so there is no reason to worry about color vs. b/w and counterfeiting.  As much as I shoot at public ranges, I've never been asked for my papers, FWIW.