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Posted: 4/16/2011 1:05:55 PM EDT
Had a customer ask the other day if it was possible to permanently attach a titanium suppressor to a steel barrel (carbon steel or stainless.) Can it be welded, silver soldered, other? I'm not a welder, just a suppressor peddler, so I didn't know the answer for them. They want to take a 10.5" or 11.5" barrel and permanently attach a Trek-T to it for a 16"+ barrel length. Probably have to be the 11.5" just to be on the safe side.  They want the titanium version to keep the weight down as much as possible, as well as other reasons.

Anyway, thoughts on that?
Link Posted: 4/16/2011 1:31:40 PM EDT
[#1]
My .02: dissimilar metals, permanantly attached equals rust and problems down the line. I wouldn't want to ruin either a rifle or a very expensive suppressor. FWIW.
Link Posted: 4/16/2011 2:54:21 PM EDT
[#2]
Titanium with 223, 6.5, 6.8, 308 or any other hi power + semi auto = fail sooner then later.
The titanium cans are not so good on short barrels as the heat will weaken the titanium and may cause a bad day on the range one day.
Titanium cans are best on anything other than the auto guns that some like to do some fast shooting with aka rappid fire or full auto.
If the customer still wants to do a permatach it can be done the drill pin and spot weld way as long as the pin is
the same metal as the part of the can that it will be welded in.
This can should be nice on a shorty rifle but for a little more weight a steel can will last longer.
Link Posted: 4/16/2011 5:16:32 PM EDT
[#3]
Tell them to SBR the damn rifle.  If they want an integral than get one made.
Link Posted: 4/16/2011 5:51:35 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Tell them to SBR the damn rifle.  If they want an integral than get one made.


No SBR's in Washington
Link Posted: 4/16/2011 6:35:15 PM EDT
[#5]
Don't know what the hell is in the water up here.   Too many software developers with more money than common sense, I guess.
Link Posted: 4/16/2011 7:14:12 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Tell them to SBR the damn rifle.  If they want an integral than get one made.


Ummm, isn't that basically what he wants to do, make an "integral" AR15 upper?  Not aware of a single, purpose built AR15 intergrally suppressed upper in 5.56....

Quoted:
Don't know what the hell is in the water up here.   Too many software developers with more money than common sense, I guess.


As noted, no civvy SBRs allowed in WA.  I've got one, but only because I'm an SOT.  So, how is having a permanently attached suppressor on the end of a short barrel to get to legal OAL not "common sense"?  And why not the titanium can that is 40% lighter and supposed to be as durable as the steel version, full auto and 10.5" barrel rated?  Not seeing the argument that this is a stupid rich Microsoftie with no common sense frankly....

And if the titanium version only winds up being an extra $265 "out the door", why not?

Link Posted: 4/16/2011 7:32:37 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Tell them to SBR the damn rifle.  If they want an integral than get one made.


Ummm, isn't that basically what he wants to do, make an "integral" AR15 upper?  Not aware of a single, purpose built AR15 intergrally suppressed upper in 5.56....




They are around.
Link Posted: 4/16/2011 9:00:58 PM EDT
[#8]
Another choice is add a shroud to a short barrel for the 16" oal needed then the suppressor can be taken off and on and get used on
other guns.




Link Posted: 4/16/2011 9:10:52 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Another choice is add a shroud to a short barrel for the 16" oal needed then the suppressor can be taken off and on and get used on
other guns.
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa166/redtazdog/DSCN0418w-1.jpg
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa166/redtazdog/9mmUppersm3.jpg




That's very cool, might need to find something  similar.
Link Posted: 4/16/2011 9:19:37 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Another choice is add a shroud to a short barrel for the 16" oal needed then the suppressor can be taken off and on and get used on
other guns.
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa166/redtazdog/DSCN0418w-1.jpg
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa166/redtazdog/9mmUppersm3.jpg




That's a pretty trick setup!  Didn't even think of something like that, even though a customer recently bought one of the SB-X rifles from Tactical Solutions that is the same concept.
Link Posted: 4/16/2011 9:28:12 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Tell them to SBR the damn rifle.  If they want an integral than get one made.


Ummm, isn't that basically what he wants to do, make an "integral" AR15 upper?  Not aware of a single, purpose built AR15 intergrally suppressed upper in 5.56....

Quoted:
Don't know what the hell is in the water up here.   Too many software developers with more money than common sense, I guess.


As noted, no civvy SBRs allowed in WA.  I've got one, but only because I'm an SOT.  So, how is having a permanently attached suppressor on the end of a short barrel to get to legal OAL not "common sense"?  And why not the titanium can that is 40% lighter and supposed to be as durable as the steel version, full auto and 10.5" barrel rated?  Not seeing the argument that this is a stupid rich Microsoftie with no common sense frankly....

And if the titanium version only winds up being an extra $265 "out the door", why not?


Titanium is only as durable as mild steel and gets weak with heat as its not even close to 304, 316 or inconel in strength against heat.
I'm thinking the titanium can on a 11.5" barrel AR that get many mag dumps will maybe last 1/2 as long as a good steel can thats 1/2 the price.

Link Posted: 4/16/2011 9:36:26 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Titanium is only as durable as mild steel and gets weak with heat as its not even close to 304, 316 or inconel in strength against heat.
I'm thinking the titanium can on a 11.5" barrel AR that get many mag dumps will maybe last 1/2 as long as a good steel can thats 1/2 the price.



Well, we wouldn't have the full auto issue to worry about, as those aren't kosher for civilians here either.  I was just basing the durability of the titanium suppressor from Gemtech's website information.
The TREK-T is our shortest, 5.56mm titanium suppressor: Its tough construction is suitable for full auto and usage on modern, shorter barrel (10.4" or greater) carbines.


I'm guessing the blast baffle is inconel, but that still doesn't address heat build up in the rest of the suppressor from extended firing.  But if we go with a shrouded barrel like the one you pictured, and durability becomes an issue, then it would possibly be eligible for warranty coverage since it wouldn't be welded in place.

Who did that barrel for you by the way?
Link Posted: 4/16/2011 9:47:33 PM EDT
[#13]
But if we go with a shrouded barrel like the one you pictured, and durability becomes an issue, then it would possibly be eligible for warranty coverage since it wouldn't be welded in place.
.
Bingo! + its no fun being in the middle of the maker of the can and the customer when it takes a chit and the warranty is no good after welding it on.
.
I made the barrel just to beat the SBR game
Link Posted: 4/17/2011 1:18:42 AM EDT
[#14]
Titanium loses strength when heated above 430 °C (806 °F). How hot does he plan on getting it?





Link Posted: 4/17/2011 4:23:50 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Another choice is add a shroud to a short barrel for the 16" oal needed then the suppressor can be taken off and on and get used on
other guns.
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa166/redtazdog/DSCN0418w-1.jpg
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa166/redtazdog/9mmUppersm3.jpg




cool.  I looked at doing one of those tac sol shrouded 10/22 barrels, but my 22sparrows really need to be gripped from the bottom to unscrew them.
Link Posted: 4/17/2011 6:55:30 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Another choice is add a shroud to a short barrel for the 16" oal needed then the suppressor can be taken off and on and get used on
other guns.
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa166/redtazdog/DSCN0418w-1.jpg
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa166/redtazdog/9mmUppersm3.jpg




cool.  I looked at doing one of those tac sol shrouded 10/22 barrels, but my 22sparrows really need to be gripped from the bottom to unscrew them.


Good point, even my SWR Spectre sometime decides to come apart when unscrewing it.
Link Posted: 4/17/2011 6:55:31 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Another choice is add a shroud to a short barrel for the 16" oal needed then the suppressor can be taken off and on and get used on
other guns.
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa166/redtazdog/DSCN0418w-1.jpg
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa166/redtazdog/9mmUppersm3.jpg




cool.  I looked at doing one of those tac sol shrouded 10/22 barrels, but my 22sparrows really need to be gripped from the bottom to unscrew them.

Never had a problem with the TacSol sbx barrels and take apart cans as long as I put the endcaps on tight
Most centerfire cans dont come apart so its not a problem loosing the endcap inside of the shroud.

Link Posted: 4/18/2011 1:25:54 AM EDT
[#18]
Link Posted: 4/18/2011 5:02:37 PM EDT
[#19]
Even if we could have SBR's I'm pretty darn sure that you'd need to fill out that form 5020 (and have it approved) in order to travel with it.  An integrally suppressed rifle could go anywhere suppressors are legal with the only required thing being a copy of your Form 4 (or form 1 if you made it yourself.)

Integral suppressors should be more more common on the AR platform for this reason alone.
Link Posted: 4/19/2011 5:04:29 AM EDT
[#20]
Link Posted: 4/19/2011 5:22:27 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Quoted:

Titanium is only as durable as mild steel and gets weak with heat as its not even close to 304, 316 or inconel in strength against heat.
I'm thinking the titanium can on a 11.5" barrel AR that get many mag dumps will maybe last 1/2 as long as a good steel can thats 1/2 the price.



The myth of titanium alloys loosing strength at elevated temperatures is one that is often repeated on these boards. While I do not know the yield strength curves for pure titanium (Grade 2), I do know them for the grades we use.

The only strength parameter of real concern in  pressure vessels (like silencers) is the yield strength, which is considerably less than tensile strength. This, obviously, diminishes with elevated temperature. In the case of 300 series stainless steels (the most corrosion resistant), the yield at room temperature is 30,000 psi and it degrades to 18,600 psi at 800°F. 4130 chrome-moly steel has a room temperature yield strength in excess of 150,000 psi (varying with temper). I have not looked up the degradation of yield strength of 4140 at 800°F, but assuming it degrades at the same rate as stainless, it will still be in excess of 100,000 psi. This information is readily available from the ASM International metallurgical publications.

The titanium alloy we use for out outer tubes has a yield strength of 75,000 psi at room temperature, almost 2.5 times that of stainless steel. Further, it degrades to approximately 60,000 psi at 800°F (well over 3 times that of stainless) according to the manufacturer, President Titanium. No matter how you look both at room and elevated temperature, the correct titanium alloy is a stronger material than any of the grades of 300 stainless steel.

Further, neither titanium nor stainless conduct/absorb heat nearly as well as aluminum, and the aluminum alloys we use in our pistol/subgun/rimfire suppressors has yield strengths at the normal operating temperatures seen in pistol caliber suppressors well in excess of twice that of stainless. Aluminum does not hold up at the elevated temperatures seen in rifle cartridges, but in rimfire and pistol calibers, it is more than strong enough, and it is far superior at heat transfer. Particularly in rimfire, heat transfer is an important contributor to suppressor efficiency.

Interestingly, the skin on the SR-71 high speed spy plane is titanium, and the heat of friction raises the skin temperature significantly. It was noted that it became stronger with repeated heat cycles.

The internet is a treasure trove of information, but it is also a great source of misinformation and hogwash. One would be wise to not simply repeat as fact the erroneous  postings of others.






Philip,

Thanks for the accurate information.
Link Posted: 4/20/2011 7:36:42 AM EDT
[#22]
Possible idea:

Use a QD-mount suppressor.
P&W the mount to the barrel.
Attach the suppressor.
Weld a washer behind the suppressor to the mount so you can't push it down far enough to disconnect it.

Permanently attached suppressor without touching the can.

Downside, it will be heavier and more expensive than a threadmount.
Link Posted: 4/20/2011 8:17:58 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Possible idea:

Use a QD-mount suppressor.
P&W the mount to the barrel.
Attach the suppressor.
Weld a washer behind the suppressor to the mount so you can't push it down far enough to disconnect it.

Permanently attached suppressor without touching the can.

Downside, it will be heavier and more expensive than a threadmount.


That sounds like an innovative idea!

Obviously the cat is out of the bag now, but the question came about because of the GEMTAX offer on the Trek-T suppressor.    We're going to go with the shroud method
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