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singtoe
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Posted: 2/28/2010 8:16:10 AM

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There has been a lot of chatter about a 12 gauge suppressors lately. Last night I had a dream that envisioned me pioneering a way to silence my Saiga 12. Here are some key points. The cans that are presently for sale are too expensive (>$900) and they attach to the gun and stick out way too long.

This is what I was thinking and this is why I am posting it first to see what everybody thinks before wasting some money and time.

First question - Is 12 Gauge ammo subsonic. No - It varies from 1200 to 1800 fps.

Second question - If I make an integral can and start venting the barrel right after the gas block, can I slow the velocity down to subsonic speeds?

Third question - This ties in with question two - I have 9 1/2" of barrel sticks past the gas block, this is what i will be using as the integral suppressor. So that will mean I will essentially have a 9" unaltered barrel for the 12 ammo to develop velocity. What will the velocity of 12 gauge ammo be from a gun with a 9" barrel?

Forth question - Will I be able to use aluminum as a Suppressor body? Or will the pressures be to great and how large should the body be - 1 1/2" - 2" - 2 1/2"? Any suggestions?

Fifth question - Venting the barrel. should vent the barrel in a spiraling fashion. To add a twist to the 12 gauge ammo as it goes down the barrel.

Sixth question - Since I will be using the barrel as the part of the silencer, I think old school washers and spacers should be fine enough with 2" blast chamber. Should I try to create a K or M baffle that slides over the barrel?

Some positive attributes to trying this project. $200 for a form 1 and maybe $100 in materials. My Saiga has an adjustable 2 position gas block, It could easily be modified into a 3 position with a cut off so the action does not cycle for even quieter shooting. Accuracy should remain the same (utilizing the original barrel as part of the suppressor) with the exception of lower velocities. Making a integral verses a thread on will have no issues for me because would not need to attach it to anything other shotgun. If it works, I believe it will double or triple the value of my Saiga. Last but not least, if it is a total failure, I'll Form 1 the Saiga and make a SBR out of it...

Should I proceed or chalk it up to a bad dream? Your opinions and suggestions matter...
cosmos556
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Posted: 2/28/2010 5:35:10 PM
Thoughts:

Most scattergun gurus contend it takes 12" of barrel for a 12 gauge round to burn up all the powder. How would your suppressor deal with this? It seems like this would be awfully hard on aluminum. And sorry, I'm not quite tracking you on the gas plug. Are you planning to keep it usable to allow better cycling of high power versus low pressure rounds? Why aren't you going with something like the MD Arms (I think that's the maker) 4 position plug?

I'll agree with you $900 is a lot, but it's about the only shotgun suppressor I know of on the market. By the time you factor in production costs, $900 doesn't seem that far off base.
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Slug-O
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Posted: 3/1/2010 10:52:33 AM
I have a red stick Saiga suppressor comming so my problems are none. I suggest that you go to Saiga-12.com and ask your questions there in the 12ga form. As for ammo speed... I shoot all the shotgun sports and reloading will get you to the velosity that you want. also get the MD gas adjuster!!!
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jowga
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Posted: 3/1/2010 8:54:52 PM
Gunfixr/MDArms gas plug is definitely the way to go. Finger adjustable for four different gas port settings.

Gunfixr is the guy who made the plug that MD Arms sells. This is his second gen plug - it has four settings that regulate the gas to ideally ALL cycle the gun - just for different loads. So most likely putting it on -1 will keep a subsonic shell from cycling the action (-1 for heavy 3" loads. Then there's +1, 2, and 3, with 3 for light bird shot loads).

His first gen plug included an "off" position to positively make it a single shot - said he had requests for that from folks for use on trap ranges. Can see if he still has some, or I can go check one in my garage if you want more info on it. Think I've converted over to his second gens now as I like them better (don't have a 12-gauge suppressor - yet - only one I've played with was on a Striker-12 that was pretty cool).
singtoe
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Posted: 3/2/2010 7:05:57 AM
Originally Posted By cosmos556:
Thoughts:


I'll agree with you $900 is a lot, but it's about the only shotgun suppressor I know of on the market. By the time you factor in production costs, $900 doesn't seem that far off base.


I guess, it is not the cost that has me asking questions (ok a little bit) but it is the fact that you will have a foot plus long can hanging off the end making it unyielding and lopsided looking.



Now, imagine this with a 15" can hanging off then end of it...
Slug-O
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Posted: 3/2/2010 8:22:31 AM
Originally Posted By singtoe:
Originally Posted By cosmos556:
Thoughts:


I'll agree with you $900 is a lot, but it's about the only shotgun suppressor I know of on the market. By the time you factor in production costs, $900 doesn't seem that far off base.


I guess, it is not the cost that has me asking questions (ok a little bit) but it is the fact that you will have a foot plus long can hanging off the end making it unyielding and lopsided looking.

http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv145/singtar/Firearms/Saiga12.jpg

Now, imagine this with a 15" can hanging off then end of it...



True, but think of it on an 8" Saiga 12!!!!


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ryanwilson1979
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Posted: 4/5/2010 1:20:30 PM
I believe that if you permanently attach the suppressor to the shortened barrel, as long as the total is 18", you should be good as far as length goes. You would not have to register the SBS........that would save you another stamp. However, to do it (I'm guessing legally) you would have to have the barrel shortened (bout a $100) and attached by threads, then tac welded. Then reassemble the barrel onto the gun w/suppressor. That way you won't have created a SBS.
cosmos556
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Posted: 4/5/2010 3:56:19 PM
[Last Edit: 4/5/2010 3:56:54 PM by cosmos556]
Originally Posted By ryanwilson1979:
I believe that if you permanently attach the suppressor to the shortened barrel, as long as the total is 18", you should be good as far as length goes. You would not have to register the SBS........that would save you another stamp. However, to do it (I'm guessing legally) you would have to have the barrel shortened (bout a $100) and attached by threads, then tac welded. Then reassemble the barrel onto the gun w/suppressor. That way you won't have created a SBS.


To do that, I believe you have to press the barrel from the trunnion, have the suppressor attached, and reinstall the barrel in the trunnion (I could be wrong). IMHO, that would be worth the $200 as a SBS to take the suppressor off as desired to trouble shoot. I suppose you could possibly take a stripped AK lower, build a 12-gauge pistol, get it running, then F1 into SBS, but that seems like a LOT of work. SBS seems to be the cost and time effective route.

Also, while 3-6" of burning powder may or may not be an issue, I don't know that I'd want aluminum baffles. But that's personal preference.

ETA: YMMV, IANAL, etc.
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frog5215
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Posted: 4/5/2010 7:02:41 PM
[Last Edit: 4/5/2010 7:07:58 PM by frog5215]
While 12GA has a fair volume, it's at low pressure, like 10-12Kpsi, up to 14Kpsi for magnum loads IIRC. You're only burning 20-25 gr powder.
There are factory low report loads, but they won't usually run a semiauto, although I suspect you can do it with handloads; I have 7Kpsi 20ga loads that run my daughter's beretta.
I figure if you port the bejesus out of the barrel, and add a big sleeve with some baffles, you might wind up with a functional suppressor.
A shotgun suppressor can't really be open between baffles, so cutting and threading a barrel, or welding on a separate suppressor seems like a waste of effort. Just port it like crazy in front of the gas block and do an integral.
Um, I don't know shit about this topic, I'm just musing.
Slug-O
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Posted: 4/5/2010 8:07:05 PM
I just got a fedx notice my suppressor shipped today and will be at my gun shop/ range this week... Reports comming soon!!!
you can trust a monkey with an red ass...........really, you can...........
The_Macallan.......Obama's a dickhole.