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Posted: 1/18/2002 7:33:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2002 7:39:54 AM EDT by Carbine_Man]
Tomorrow I'm going to a CCW class. I wanted your input on something related to CCW.

What do you do when entering PRIVATE property and a sign says "No firearms?"

There are variations to this, like:
  • Entering a store with the standard "No Weapons" sign
  • Entering a store with a "No concealed firearms" sign
  • I was on the UNC Chapel Hill campus and they have signs that read: "No weapons including concealed carry permits" (or something like this.) Even though its technically public property, they ACT like its private.
I ask this because in most cases they wouldn't know if you were carrying anyways.

Has anyone succesfully challenged this in court?

What do YOU do? Put your piece in the glove compartment? Ignore it?

Can you lose your CCW for ignoring a regular "No Weapons" sign?
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 7:43:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Carbine_Man:

Can you lose your CCW for ignoring a regular "No Weapons" sign?



No. The only thing they can do is to ask you to leave, then have you arrested for trespassing if you don't. when you take your CCW class, you will learn of a federal standard sign, with a minimum of 1" block letters, and the statute number that makes it illegal to carry in specific places...generally anywhere that you might pass thru a metal detector or in federal buildings.

Don't worry about the private businesses. If you're really concealed, they'll never have a clue.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 7:51:34 AM EDT
In NC it is a misdemeor(sp?) to carry wherever there is a sign.

On school grounds it is a felony, unless the gun isn't loaded, or you don't attended that school, then it's a misdemenor.

You can lose your ccw and face criminal charges for violating any of those signs.

It's been awhile since I took the class so if anyone is aware of any mistakes I made feel free to correct me.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 7:59:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2002 8:01:00 AM EDT by brouhaha]




This sign refers to business who receive 51% of their profits from alcohol.


And I realize that this is in TX, but it should give you an idea of how thins are: www.tsra.com/CHLcrry.htm
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 8:25:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hg112:
In NC it is a misdemenor(sp?) to carry wherever there is a sign.


Thanks for the NC information, but it causes me to ask (since these signs are nearly everywhere) why am I spending $165 to get a CCW? Just what does it allow me to do, really? Every time I enter a building I hafta ditch my piece... so what do I carry it (in NC) for? This isn't a rhetorical question; I really want to know.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 8:48:46 AM EDT
Just wanted to add.

I make it a point to not enter businesses that put up the sign. Not with a gun, not without. If they wish to deny my right to defend myself, then I will excercise my right to never do business with them.

I have only seen a few places in the Phoenix area that actually have the signs up. If they do, I leave, forever.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 8:57:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2002 8:59:04 AM EDT by robbyd]

Originally Posted By Carbine_Man:

Originally Posted By hg112:
In NC it is a misdemenor(sp?) to carry wherever there is a sign.


Thanks for the NC information, but it causes me to ask (since these signs are nearly everywhere) why am I spending $165 to get a CCW? Just what does it allow me to do, really? Every time I enter a building I hafta ditch my piece... so what do I carry it (in NC) for? This isn't a rhetorical question; I really want to know.



Do you live in Chapel Hill? I go to school in Virginia, but my parents live right in Carrboro. I too have noticed the CCW signs, it's a shame that the NC laws are like that if that's the case. I'm not 21 yet so I haven't looked into this issue much, but when I turn 21, you can bet I'll go get my CCW license.

Edited to add: I hope some kind of national CCW law has passed by then, there are one or two pending in congress.

Robby
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 9:01:40 AM EDT
The way it was explained to me for NC was that:

If it's private property AND
If a sign is posted AND
If they discover you ARE carrying concealed THEN
All they can do is ask you to leave.

Refusal to do so can get you charged with trespass.

There are other restrictions for NC including: No public buildings, no banks, no places where alcohol is served, no events where admission is charged, etc.

Most people I know, who've gotten the Carry Permit, did so to enable them to carry in their vehicle without legal concerns.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 9:01:41 AM EDT
Regards to the colleges, that is a NO NO. The law was enacted after the Kent State situation. The Federal Law states that no one can carry on college/university campuses unless invited by the Dean.

Keep in mind that it is also illegal to bring any firearm into a Postal facility. Here in MA, one is not allowed to leave a handgun left "unattended in a motor vehicle". Further, in the People's Republic of MA, "any gun not in my direct control must have a trigger lock or locking device so it may not operate". So if I went into the post office with the gun, I break Federal law, yet if I leave it in the car's glove box (violation even if I lock the glove box and lock the car), I break state law (felony). I think your best bet it to use your own judgement and common sense.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 10:23:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Carbine_Man:

Originally Posted By hg112:
In NC it is a misdemenor(sp?) to carry wherever there is a sign.


Thanks for the NC information, but it causes me to ask (since these signs are nearly everywhere) why am I spending $165 to get a CCW? Just what does it allow me to do, really? Every time I enter a building I hafta ditch my piece... so what do I carry it (in NC) for? This isn't a rhetorical question; I really want to know.



Get your CCW!
It is worth all of the time, money, and hassle. It will cost a lot of money. I think mine was about $195 with the classes and the fees for the medical forms. I had to get my fingerprints taken twice because of a mistake made by a deputy, which was a major pain in the @ss.
You can carry it in most places. I always carry in Wal-mart for example.
If you are going into a store or diner that serves alcohol they will have a sign. No one will ever know if you are carrying it unless you show or tell them. It's your choice.

You also have to tell a cop you are carrying as soon as he approaches you.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 10:32:36 AM EDT
When I find a business that I wish to patronize has one of those signs up, I go inside, and I ask to speak to a manager, and I inform the manager that I will no longer be supporting his or her business, and I politely explain why, and then I leave. And I won't go back until the policy changes. And, generally, neither will any of the members of my shooting club, once I tell them.

This is why I now drive 30 minutes to get to the second-closest shopping mall to my house, rather than driving 15 minutes to get to a closer one. Because Manassas Mall requires that people go in as potential victims if they go in at all...

-BP
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 10:37:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ken2483:
Keep in mind that it is also illegal to bring any firearm into a Postal facility. Here in MA, one is not allowed to leave a handgun left "unattended in a motor vehicle". Further, in the People's Republic of MA, "any gun not in my direct control must have a trigger lock or locking device so it may not operate". So if I went into the post office with the gun, I break Federal law, yet if I leave it in the car's glove box (violation even if I lock the glove box and lock the car), I break state law (felony). I think your best bet it to use your own judgement and common sense.


I post a similar thread regarding this very subject in Mass. I believe a D Browne a GOAL rep from this web site corrected me on the locking of a firearm in a vehicle. It is legal, I believe it was changed in 1998 to read all permit holders(use to be LEO only) Gib
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 10:43:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ken2483:
Regards to the colleges, that is a NO NO. The law was enacted after the Kent State situation. The Federal Law states that no one can carry on college/university campuses unless invited by the Dean.



The federal law has no say in this issue.


Federal law:

From 18 U.S.C 921 (25) and (26):
(25) The term "school zone" means -
(A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or
(B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or
private school.
(26) The term "school" means a school which provides elementary or secondary
education, as determined under State law.

Furthermore,
Glen Davis, Counsel to the Minority of the Arizona State Senate, writes:
...The second consideration with regard to federal preemption is whether there exists a federal statute which preempts state law. The Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1990 prohibits the possession of a firearm in a school zone of any public or private, primary or secondary school. 18 U.S.C 921. The Act makes no mention of firearm prohibition on a public college or university campus. ...the state statute addresses the question of gun control on a public university campus. Since the federal statute is silent on this issue, there can be no federal preemption.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 11:39:57 AM EDT
Sorry to get a little off topic, but I have some major issues w/the gun free schools crap. most of all the 1000' rule. So they're saying, if your one of those people that live right accross the street from a school, the 2nd amendment doesn't apply to you? (Can't have a gun in your house, illegal to defend yourself, no right to own a gun, etc).

-Justin
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 11:46:58 AM EDT
Avoid that business. Don't go in & don't ever give them any money. Do business with someone else.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 11:49:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JTR:
Sorry to get a little off topic, but I have some major issues w/the gun free schools crap. most of all the 1000' rule. So they're saying, if your one of those people that live right accross the street from a school, the 2nd amendment doesn't apply to you? (Can't have a gun in your house, illegal to defend yourself, no right to own a gun, etc).

-Justin


ISTR that the law doesn't apply if you are on your own land, and also doesn't apply if you are on a public thoroughfare (for instance, driving past a school on a public road). I don't have a cite for this, can anyone else back me up?

-BP
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