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Posted: 1/17/2002 5:35:33 AM EST
I've been an NRA member for 8 years now and signed up last year for a 5 year tour. You can see I live in a state that still has NO CCW laws to help it's citizens. There are 43 states that now have laws concerning this and yet 8 states, mostly here in the plains/midwest area, that still can't get their heads out of their backsides. Do the statistics now not speak for themselves? Can we see what's happenned to the UK and Australia due to these represive forms of control?

Why then has nothing been done? You call NRA/ILA and never get to talk to anyone. When you do, they know nothing. You send emails and never get any returns. What the hell? I don't want to bag on a group I'm part of, but am having some issues with the lack of support I get as a member. Even OneShot can't get any help. Why? Isn't that what we pay for?

Some might say move to another state. All too easy to say, but the job still pays the bills and family is where family is.

The ranges are now even harder to find. I have no shooting events within any normal range that I can go to. Eddie Eagle has never visited my kids schools and the anti gun attitude of our schools sent home a note saying my kid and some others were acting like they were shooting aliens the other day. Who cares. That's what kids do. I told my 8yo son that I played cowboys and indians, army soldiers and many other things and there is nothing wrong with that. More so why this note came home and explained the attitude that exists.

Also, the one range locally that is NRA supported, wants more information from me to become a member than the BATF wanted when I got my FFL. I understand they don't want psychos in their club, but the red tape is rediculous.

I don't want to whine about this, but sure would like some answers and the NRA doesn't seem to care or want to answer these for me. Once again, what's a person supposed to do when the group is not pulling their own through the muck.

Why is it so wrong to expect something out of group we give so much to?

I sure as hell can't figure it out.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 5:46:03 AM EST
AR_Lvr, I agree with 100% of what you wrote. I live in the south, and sometimes I can't believe this is the same place that I grew-up. I drive 102 miles each way to go to a range (the local one won't allow my Kel-Tec). People used to shoot in the woods. The only time I've ever heard Eddie the Eagle's name was from gun-related sources, nothing mainstream. In the past 40 years, I've only met (in person, though I have met several here) one LEO that wasn't anti-gun. Of course, maybe it would be worse without the NRA.

The biggest thing I appreciate from the NRA is their certification of instructors. Without an abundance of instructors, many people wouldn't have a safe introduction to shooting, and we'd have a harder time convincing the states to have CCW if there wasn't a good source of instruction.z
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 6:07:58 AM EST
I also agree with you.They have pretty much given up on MA as well.I decided to become a member of GOAL instead.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 8:02:52 AM EST
But who could forget the ridiculous amount of junk mail that we recieve on a daily basis?

Keving67
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 8:25:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By zoom:
...In the past 40 years, I've only met (in person, though I have met several here) one LEO that wasn't anti-gun...


Was that a typo? Even here in California, the vast majority of LEOs are pro-gun. Most are pro-CCW too and they don't agree with Caliban gun laws.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 8:50:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2002 9:03:55 AM EST by garandman]

Originally Posted By AR_Lvr:
Why is it so wrong to expect something out of group we give so much to?

I sure as hell can't figure it out.



let's see -

For $35 a year, you get in return....

- 12 issues of a magazine that's relative quality sells for $19.95 anywhere else at a subscription rate.



- AT least another $7.00 in mailings and postage trying to get you to become a life member, so they wouldn't waste YOUR money on membership renewal mailings. (since I became a life member, I get ZERO membersip mailings)

- Free website updating you on other gun related and legislative issues. Assume cost of $1.00 for you.


Total cost so far - $27.95

So what do you expect for your additional $7.05????

And if you renew at the available $25 per year fee, you actually COST them money.




Link Posted: 1/17/2002 9:36:37 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 10:19:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By Big_Bear:
Was that a typo? Even here in California, the vast majority of LEOs are pro-gun. Most are pro-CCW too and they don't agree with Caliban gun laws.


My great-nephew shot in a pistol competition near Sunnyvale, CA, and he said two of the competitors were local cops! The officers were not only interested in shooting, they were around non-LEO's with guns. Maybe, CA isn't as anti-gun as many here would lead us to believe. Big_Bear, are you meeting those few LEO's at places where you're around guns? I'm just curious.

Here in SC, the vast majority of LEO's I've met over the past few decades are very, very anti-gun. A life-long friend of mine passed away last month, and he was a game warden (as we call it, really he was a DNR officer) for most of his life. He had a lot of trouble finding anyone with law-enforcement experience that didn't see anything morally wrong with civilians carrying guns in the woods and/or hunting. When you're supposed to work with hunters, that can be a problem. A relative of my wife's complains that of the new law enforcement officers he trains here, most have never touched an gun before and some refuse to shoot until told they won't pass. Of course, I can't forget the former LEO's I work with. To a one, each is very anti-gun. My boss has even removed everything hunting-related from his office and stopped talking about hunting. He no longer says he's going hunting. He simply tells us he's going on vacation to keep from getting a hardtime from those guys.z
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 10:36:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2002 10:37:51 AM EST by ARlady]

Originally Posted By AR_Lvr:
I've been an NRA member for 8 years now and signed up last year for a 5 year tour. You can see I live in a state that still has NO CCW laws to help it's citizens. There are 43 states that now have laws concerning this and yet 8 states, mostly here in the plains/midwest area, that still can't get their heads out of their backsides..



do you actually think that the NRA is the force of change within states and communities? no wonder nothing is being done then!


You call NRA/ILA and never get to talk to anyone. When you do, they know nothing. You send emails and never get any returns. What the hell? I don't want to bag on a group I'm part of, but am having some issues with the lack of support I get as a member. Even OneShot can't get any help. Why? Isn't that what we pay for?


what exactly are you wanting from them? i mean, what info are you looking for when you call?


Some might say move to another state. All too easy to say, but the job still pays the bills and family is where family is.


i know i'm going to get flamed for this, but that's a cop out. if your freedom were truly (and if you don't think it is, we need to have a chat) in jeopardy, do you think that the job and the proximity of family would be foremost on your mind?


Eddie Eagle has never visited my kids schools and the anti gun attitude of our schools sent home a note saying my kid and some others were acting like they were shooting aliens the other day. Who cares. That's what kids do. I told my 8yo son that I played cowboys and indians, army soldiers and many other things and there is nothing wrong with that. More so why this note came home and explained the attitude that exists.


can't do much about the ant-gun sentiment in your school (district) except vote them out if they're elected. i would bet a trickled down will occur. as for the Eddie Eagle program, i have a sneaky suspicion they don't charge and barge into schools and demand to be given time to teach gun safety. perhaps an invitation??????


I don't want to whine about this


then don't! be a man and start making the changes yourself. if you see something you don't like, put all that energy you're using for griping about it into making some changes that are more to your liking.

as for an answer to your question, their very presence is probably the one reason we still have the gun rights we do. the NRA pulls the resources of every single one of its members into one pot. even if every single NRA member did on an individual basis what the NRA does as a group, we could never hope to achieve the same kind of results. never. of course that doesn't mean we stop our individual efforts.

the NRA keeps you informed of shitty legislation so that you can write your Congress critters and let them know whether you like it or not. they let you know of businesses who don't deserve our patronization because of their anti-gun stance. they let us know how we as individuals can help protect the 2nd. they expose the attempts at gun-grabbing for what it really is...stupidity. i could go on. but i think i've made a point here.

if you doubt the NRA's contribution to your life or the lives of gun owners in general, just don't renew when your five years is up and see how it compares. and just think about the results if everybody did this. we'd be in a world of hurt.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 10:51:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By ARlady:

Some might say move to another state. All too easy to say, but the job still pays the bills and family is where family is.


i know i'm going to get flamed for this, but that's a cop out. if your freedom were truly (and if you don't think it is, we need to have a chat) in jeopardy, do you think that the job and the proximity of family would be foremost on your mind?

.



No, ARlady, you are SPOT ON.

We make sacrifices for the things that are TRULY important to us.

I've done it - moved away from my whole family cuz I couldn't stand the marxist politics that permeate New England.

To those in Kommunist Amerika -

If you truly value your freedom, then move to a free state. If you truly value your family, job, comfort, etc. then stay where you are, and admit that your lack of freedom is a conscious choice. A decision. YOUR decision.



Link Posted: 1/17/2002 11:37:49 AM EST
I get tired of the load of junk mail too, but even Klinton credits the NRA for us not having President Al Gore in office. Thank God for that. Watch-Six
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 11:39:08 AM EST
zoom, that really surprises me coming from a so-called "free" state. Yes, I'm drawing from my own experience around the LEOs I've met in California. My line of work puts me in contact with LA County sheriff's deputies, LAPD, and Long Beach PD, and sometimes the conversations turn to guns, hunting, and so-called assault weapons. There are current and retired LEOs who are members of my gun club. Our club sells range time for LE training. I have taken tactial training classes from LA Metro and SWAT team instructors. I used to live in a condo where my landlord was Inglewood PD. I have taken my own informal polls and asked what they think about gun laws and CCW laws.

Those are my own personal experiences with local LEOs, and in addition to that, I had an email exchange with a local newspaper columnist who printed a very good pro-gun letter from a Long Beach cop. I listen to talk radio and the cops who call in by and large favor CCW for law-abiding citizens. Bear in mind that these are rank and file officers I'm talking about here. The brass frequently take the opposite stance for what I believe to be political expediency.

Not only that, I have seen numerous official polls of rank and file LEOs, San Diego PD for example, and there's no doubt that they are pro-gun. I am really surprised to hear that South Carolina LEOs are anti-gun. I sort of assumed that rank and file LEOs were pretty much of the same or similar opinion everywhere.

[sarcasm] Maybe you and garandman should move to a more free state. [/sarcasm]
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 1:28:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By ARlady:

Some might say move to another state. All too easy to say, but the job still pays the bills and family is where family is.


i know i'm going to get flamed for this, but that's a cop out. if your freedom were truly (and if you don't think it is, we need to have a chat) in jeopardy, do you think that the job and the proximity of family would be foremost on your mind?



No, ARlady, you are SPOT ON.



ha! who'd a thunk it? we agree!


If you truly value your freedom, then move to a free state. If you truly value your family, job, comfort, etc. then stay where you are, and admit that your lack of freedom is a conscious choice. A decision. YOUR decision.


actually been thinking about that, and it sort of parellels what good ol' benny franklin said about wanting two different things: if you try and keep your family, your job, your comfort, etc at the expense of your freedom, you'll end up losing it all anyway. cuz without the freedom you won't be able to save your family, keep your job, have a comfortable house....am i getting through here???
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 1:39:50 PM EST
Very good points AR_Lady.

The main things I've tried to get information on are when a vote was coming up or what HBills might be in review or on the tables. Simple things I think they should be able to provide. Trying to get more info on the Eddie Eagle program for the ill-thinking faculties of our district. Maybe a little help organizing the types of groups that need to exist locally for us to win these battles. Local ranges that have programs available for High Power Rifle and safe shooting for my kids. Is that really too much to ask for? I guess in reality my $7 don't buy a lot. I thought we could count on the organisations that are kept alive by our membership dollars to at least be a foundation with which we can build on top of. In this state, which I do like, we need that foundation to build off of. Most states have been blessed by the help that the NRA and local organisations have been able to team up and win in the fight for CCW. I just don't see it here.

Yes I do write to our representatives and governor and have yet to see any improvements towards this. I do vote for the people who say they will help. The fight isn't over but it's been very long.

John
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 1:48:49 PM EST
Funny when I read this post on the forum the post just above it talks about the NRA Eddie the Eagle Progarm being held in Chicago...

They must be doing SOME good.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 1:50:55 PM EST
DO NOT give up on the N R A........as far as leo`s.....98% of the ones I know....(a lot) are pro-gun.....and appreciate my own attitude and fact that I am as "involved"...in knowledge/issues...........
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 2:08:02 PM EST
What does the NRA do? Number one - they spoil us. They work their butts off so we don't have to. So we can sit on our buts while the K-Marts, Kennedys and demokrats, MMMs, Estee Lauders, media, etc., etc., etc. treat us as criminals on a daily basis. How many gun owners have marched in (much less organized) a million gun owner march?

Gun owners who don't belong to the NRA take their gun rights for granted. Those of us who support and realize we have the NRA to thank for many of those rights should not take the NRA for granted.

My enemies enimies are my friends and the gun hating left has no bigger enemy than the NRA.

Our enemies work a lot harder for their cause than we do. They are constantly in the activist mode. In fact, I would bet this thread is making the rounds and warming the cockles of their evil little hearts at this moment. And that's sad!

Link Posted: 1/17/2002 5:25:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2002 5:31:34 PM EST by shooter505]
Arlvr and Zoom you ask what the NRA does for us? I guess a better question would be what would happen if we did not have the NRA. I know the answer and I bet you do also. You would be taking those AR's that you love and all of your other guns that the anti-elites feel we should not process and surrendering them to the scrap piles like Australia. To be blunt about it with all bravado aside if you did not surrender the guns you would be dead or in prison and your family would be screwed because of your believes. The NRA which is all of the members with our money and our votes, is the one force that is preserving our 2nd amendment rights and our beliefs without going to war to do so. I don’t know if you are aware that two years ago the NRA was rated as the second most influential lobby group in Washington and has never been ranked below the tenth most influential. This does matter and is the reason we still have our guns. Also don’t forget the 1994 elections-THE GUN LOBBY (NRA) even got Billy Blue dress Clinton's attention along with several former members of our legislative branch.


We may not like or approve of everything the NRA does. With 3 million plus members can everyone have it their way? I am a life member and my wife is a member, we also give a considerable amount of money to the NRA-ILA yearly. I get tired of all of the mailings and soliciting for more money from me. But I feel that this money is being used properly and is an important part of the Lobbying process. I firmly believe something my political science professor told me. "Our political system is based on the shiit sandwich principle, The more bread you have- the less shiit you have to eat". If it was not for us the NRA we all would be eating allot of the anti’s-elite's sandwiches.


As for LEO's and the NRA speaking empirically as a recently retired LEO this is what the NRA has done for me and other LEO's. First off when I was about 10 years old the NRA provided BB guns for our local police dept. for a gun safety class. This was before hunter safety was required and it started my interest in firearms and gave me the fundamentals that have made me a master rated shooter. The NRA provided me and two other deputies advanced police firearms instructor training that our small dept could not afford otherwise. The NRA provides member LEO's a 25,000.00 life insurance for member LEO's killed in the line of duty. I e-mailed handgun control and asked them if they did or would provide a life insurance policy for LEO's killed in the line of duty. They never did answer me! I wonder why? In this part of Colorado I would say that most of the Senior LEO's are members of the NRA. Most are members because it is beneficial to us as LEO's and our communities, because allot of LEO's believe in responsible gun ownership and personal protection, and because we know that we will not be a LEO forever. And I can say without any doubt or reservations that the NRA has done a hell of allot more for me and my fellow LEO's than Sara Brady or any of the other anti groups.

(Continued)
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 5:25:54 PM EST
I agree with raf,10mmfan and Ar-Lady hit the nail on the head and drove it home. Arlvr and zoom-I don’t mean this to be an insult or argumentative. If you don’t want to sound like you are whining-then stop whining about the NRA. Instead research the NRA and find out what they are doing, how they are doing it and what their goals are. If you have a problem with what is going on then write them a reasonable letter and contact your NRA state representative and tell him/her and then ask him/her if you can help them in any way. In my opinion the NRA is the most influential national pro-gun owner group. I know that the other pro groups have good intentions. But it seems to me that to give my money and support to these other groups would be like General Custer splitting his forces up. We know how that ended up. The anti's have a long term agenda and they are determined to achieve it with any means possible. Barring any supreme court decisions in either direction we are in for a long and hard fight. I hope we stand together for this most important issue.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 6:33:13 PM EST
"if you doubt the NRA's contribution to your life or the lives of gun owners in general, just don't renew when your five years is up and see how it compares. and just think about the results if everybody did this. we'd be in a world of hurt."

Yeh,we're not in a world of hurt now? Anybody read history? nra has been around for how many years? And in those years there has been how many gun laws passed in violation of our GOD GIVEN rights to self defense (primarily from government)? And nra has HELPED WRITE how many of those gun laws?? (1994 "crime bill") Yeh, keep throwing yer money down a rat hole, and keep on voting
"republican"! One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.....WAKE UP!!


Link Posted: 1/17/2002 6:48:23 PM EST
So wake us up liberty! Tell us your solution.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 6:50:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2002 6:51:57 PM EST by ARlady]
liberty86, i see your point. things aren't as they should be. but it could be a lot worse. and don't for one second think it wouldn't be without the NRA.

the NRA isn't perfect, but it's about the best we've got. all the other gun owner organizations combined can't do what the NRA does. they don't have the name recognition, they don't have the lobbying power, and they don't have the funds. you probably aren't perfect yourself, but i see that nobody tossed you out with the trash.

i don't vote republican. i vote pro-gun. i think that most of our members do too. but it doesn't serve our purpose any when we throw our vote away on a guy who's got an ice cube's chance in hell of winning the election. if you're so damn smart and know all of the answers, how about enlightening those of us who are "asleep?"

edited to add: shooter505, ya beat me to the punch!
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 6:55:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By shooter505:
Arlvr and zoom-I don’t mean this to be an insult or argumentative. If you don’t want to sound like you are whining-then stop whining about the NRA.


Whining? I said "it would be worse without the NRA," and that I appreciated their instructor training. What are you talking about?

shooter505, nice post. I've often read about what the NRA does for law enforcement officers, and it bugs me that so many of them are anti-NRA. Reading your post just drives that point home. Almost every time you read something from an anti-gun group, you see a LEO organization standing behind them. That irks me, and I bet it irks you more considering what the NRA has done for you.z
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 9:39:35 PM EST
I know, I too complain where's the NRA? But the question is what did I do personally do to prevent an anti-gun candidate from taking office, or help a pro-gun candidate into office. Many of us are transfixed on the national elections, such as president. We should help out where can make a difference, and that is on the local level. All the pro-gunners should volunteer to help out with the campaigning. I know it is tough to make cold sales telephone campaign calls to people who hang up on you etc. But it has to be done. There are many gun people who won't help because they don't want their name on a list, or don't have time, don't like politics, etc, but they bitch and moan when the government outlaws their favorite AR, AK, M1 etc.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 9:58:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2002 10:03:28 PM EST by shooter505]

Origionally posted by Zoom:
AR_Lvr, I agree with 100% of what you wrote. I live in the south, and sometimes I can't believe this is the same place that I grew-up. I drive 102 miles each way to go to a range (the local one won't allow my Kel-Tec). People used to shoot in the woods. The only time I've ever heard Eddie the Eagle's name was from gun-related sources, nothing mainstream. In the past 40 years, I've only met (in person, though I have met several here) one LEO that wasn't anti-gun. Of course, maybe it would be worse without the NRA.




Sorry Zoom, I guess Big Bear and I both misundestood your post. The part that thru me was you agreeing 100% with Ar-lvr and the MAYBE IT WOULD BE WORSE WITHOUT THE NRA. Most of the time when you see LEO's standing beside the anti's it is usually the command staff of a political motivated department, or the officers were ordered to be there or else. Does it irk me? A little-but no where near as much as the NRA irks the anti's. I have been around law-enforcement since 1978 and I can not even guess how many LEO's I have seen that have been trained to shoot by the NRA either directly or indirectly. Maybe the NRA should toot their horn louder about these types of facts. The same people that do not want anyone to carry a concealed weapon do not want a national carry law for Peace officers. They fought the proposed law once before and are again fighting it. So it looks like we are all in the same boat here-and we will either fight together or sink together. In my opinion the NRA is the tie that binds those of us-that want to own guns for protection or for entertainment. I feel that the number of Peace Officers that signed in on the LEO forum is a very good indication of how many LEO's are not anti-gun in this country or on this site.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 10:25:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2002 10:29:20 PM EST by e8ght]
Ask not what your gun organization can do for you - but what you can do for your gun organization.

Seriously, if you don't get much action from your local organization, it's likely because they 1) don't have the resources and 2) need more (or more talented/organized/specialized/connected/monied/charismatic etc) people to do the job more effectively in your area.

Simple answer: If you find a problem with your organization, volunteer, then do a better job than the last guy.

Edited to add that you can't honestly expect much more than a magazine subscription for thirty bucks a year, or whatever basic membership dues are at these days.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 5:22:40 AM EST
I am an endowment member of the NRA! When I called the Eddie Eagle program they sent me tons of literature to give my kids school and now this school is going to start teaching this program. When I called and asked for shooting instructor information I was sent information on classes in my area. The NRA,like any organization, is effective only if its memmbers are active at the local or grassroots level. I live in one of the most liberal antigun states in the US and without the NRA gun ownership would have ended here.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 6:29:12 AM EST
I defy any NRA member to read pages 22-24 of the most recent American Rifleman (Feb. 02) without wiping a tear and being proud to be associated with such people!!
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