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2/23/2017 5:55:53 PM
Posted: 1/13/2002 1:26:09 PM EST
my dad is looking for a ccw gun. he wants a 45. he says he wants 10+1 double action in a "medium" size gun. he wants something smaller than a spec 1911, and bigger than the glock 36 or para p-10. im not sure im gonna be able to find him a 10+1 DA. are the para p series DA?

thanks
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 1:35:27 PM EST
My Double Eagle Officers gives me 8+1 of 45 in a 1911 feel alike with a 1911 officers top and a fairly nice DA/SA with decocker.
Just make sure you buy the "mark II" (after they fixed the problems) and check the chamber to see if it needs polishing.

Link Posted: 1/13/2002 1:36:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By mattsd:
my dad is looking for a ccw gun. he wants a 45. he says he wants 10+1 double action in a "medium" size gun. he wants something smaller than a spec 1911, and bigger than the glock 36 or para p-10. im not sure im gonna be able to find him a 10+1 DA. are the para p series DA?

thanks



Glock 30... enough said.

But to add more . It is an excellent carry gun. I'm a pretty skinny guy but have no trouble concealing it. It is a little fatter than a G36 so if he thought it was too skinny then this may be a perfect fit for him. It has the full 10+1 capacity and will accept the Glock 21 Hi-caps (13 or 13+2) so if you feel the need for extra firepower this is a cool feature. Or you can buy a Glock 21 too and have hi-caps you can use in both guns (I have a G21 as well).

The G30 was the first pistol I ever bought. I bought it on my 21st Birthday as a gift to myself. I have never regreted the purchase for a second. It is probably my favorite pistol of all of mine to shoot. It fits my hand like a glove. I almost bought a G36 but I didn't like they way it fit in my hand.

Hope that helps.
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 1:43:24 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 1:57:45 PM EST
oh yeah, i forgot to tell you, he hates glocks. so the 30 is out of question. i think a para is looking good. like the p12 or p13
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 2:10:15 PM EST
HK USP .45 Compact
Para LDA .45 in a commander size package.
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 2:17:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By mattsd:
oh yeah, i forgot to tell you, he hates glocks. so the 30 is out of question. i think a para is looking good. like the p12 or p13



He hates Glocks?!?!?.... something must be wrong with him.... he just sounds too picky if you ask me. jk
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 2:51:14 PM EST
more of a traditionalist. i just dont think he can except the plastic factor.
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 2:58:23 PM EST
Glock 30
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 3:04:05 PM EST
He's asking for a lot, and then you specify CCW. That makes it worse.

To get all that in a 1911-series, you're looking at BIG hardware. Otherwise, I think only the Glocks and the HKs will fit the bill, and I'm more impressed with the Glock.
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 4:14:00 PM EST
when i talk about size factor, i dont think he is really concerned with width. more like barrel leanth and grip leanth. 99% of his carrying will be under his BDUs, so its not like trying to hide a 45 in speedos or something.
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 4:21:00 PM EST
leaning this way


Link Posted: 1/13/2002 5:30:20 PM EST
I got a P-12 limited it is a badass gun,once broken in it feeds every crappy ass reject reload that I can create in my garage. Hopefully you can get the 12 round mags that makes things real fun. Nice carry gun and suprisingly accurate for its size, but it is heavy with 13 rounds of golden sabers.
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 5:56:15 PM EST
I would have to weigh in on the HK USP Compact in 45. Great balance and not to heavy and a grip most people can get their whole hand on.

No Slack!
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 6:14:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By MatthewDaugherty:
I would have to weigh in on the HK USP Compact in 45. Great balance and not to heavy and a grip most people can get their whole hand on.

No Slack!




you freak me out cause you have my name

diffrent spelling though
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 6:41:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By mattsd:
more of a traditionalist. i just dont think he can except the plastic factor.



For some reason I was very much the same.... then I bought one.... never looked back.

If he can live with only 7 rounds the Kimber CDP series is an EXCELLENT choise too. They make a compact 3", a 4", or a full size 5". But you could buy almost two Glock 30's for the price. I've never shot a Para, but I have friends who swear by them. They're nice.
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 6:44:52 PM EST
Maybe a SIG. I wouldn't be so hung up on max number of rounds.
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 6:50:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 7:16:24 PM EST
mattsd,
See what Guns and Ammo had to say about the Para-Ord P12-45 LDA. I'm going to be carrying the P-12 myself soon.
www.gunsandammomag.com/dynamic.asp?intSectionID=199&intArticleID=909

coyote3

Link Posted: 1/13/2002 7:28:22 PM EST
There is a thread over at www.tacticalforums.com discussing the Para Ordnance. Overall, the concensus (there at least) is that the Para isn't suitable for "serious" use.

I don't have any experience with Para's so I'm not bashing them (I have no agenda). I did note however that a lot of NOTABLE folks, including Kevin McClung and IIRC Larry Vickers, didn't think much of Para Ordnance.

Here is the specific link, which wasn't working a few minutes ago 64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum56/HTML/000011.html

Like I said, I have no agenda, but if we are talking about a carry gun I though you'd rather have the information than not.

JAW
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 7:31:42 PM EST
I'd go with a Para P-13. In fact, I have two--remember "one is none, two is one". Find what works and get two--if you ever need to use it, the one will be with the cops for a while! And if one breaks, there is another to take it's place.

But I digress. . . I tried a Para P-12, but the grip was too short--it hit in the middle of my hand and hurt like hell with heavy use (1200 rounds in 5 days). The P-13 is just a wee bit longer and is perfect for me. I'd definitely avoid the P-10. It's way too short--I've yet to meet anyone who can grip that tiny stock firm enough for the gun to reliably function. The commander size Kimbers are also great.

I'm also not a fan of plastic!
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 9:31:51 PM EST
Glock 30, I really like mine. Its in the back of waste band all the time and I dont even notice it any more. Its accurate and durable and a nice to shoot. 10+1 + second or third mag in a coat pocket....nice.
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 7:48:29 AM EST
Well, the Wilson KZ-45 would seem to be almost ideal. 10+1, polymer frame, no wider than a regular 1911.

But I would recommend a Commander (or equivalent), alloy frame, thinline grips, and a 8-round mag. That gives you 9 rounds in a nice compact package that anyone should be able to pack nicely.
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 8:30:05 AM EST
Mattsd:

I have owned, shot, and carried concealed the P10, P12, P13, and P14. Here is my .02.

The P10 does not work out of the box. Two trips back to Para's service shop and three to my local gunsmith before it worked right. Terrible service and customer service. I have now put about 500 rounds through it since the last malfunction, but I still do not trust it unless I absolutely have to go very small.

The P12 (LW and Limited) are both great and worked just fine out of the box. Never had a malfunction in over 3000 rounds through the two pistols. The mag well is too short for large hands. That is easily remedied by the addition of the S&A mainspring housing/mag guide, since the stock plastic mainspring housing needs to be replaced anyway (along with the plastic mag release button). Get the Limited and add the mag guide, mag release, and night sights and it is ready for concealed carry. The alloy is great if you are going to carry very much, but costs more to upgrade to a good package and has a bit more felt recoil (less than the LW Officer's Model).

The P13 Limited works great as well in over 1000 rounds. The only issue is that the Limited comes with the big, adjustable Bomar type sights, which are uncomfortable as hell to carry against your body. Add the same mods as above, and move from the Officer's Model sized P12 to the Commander sized P13. Again, consider the lightweight if carrying very much.

The P14 alloy and Limited in .45 ACP and .40 S&W work well after several thousand rounds. The same considerations as above apply, and the P14 is a full sized frame. That can make it a bit difficult to conceal and it is bulky to carry concealed.

Of all of them, my favorite for CCW is the lightweight P12 with several additional mods, or the P13 Limited frame with a P12 Limited slide on it. Just my .02, YMMV.

Hope this helps.
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 8:53:01 AM EST
mattsd:

The key to concealed carry, especially inside-the-waistband is the HOLSTER. I carry a full-size Government 1911 (Les Baer Premier II) all the time, and it conceals under something as simple as an untucked T-shirt. Extremely comfortable.

I would have him look at the Milt Sparks' Versa-Max2 line of holsters no matter what pistol. Extremely comfortable. Mitch Rosen makes good holsters too, and Kramers are worth the money.

As far as a .45...I still suggest either a Government or Officers 1911. If he wants to get REAL short, you can go with Springfields Ultra Carry 1911. They even make it in a double-stack so that it's a tiny .45 but carries 10+1. I owned one, and sold it because it was less comfortable to carry than a full-sized 1911!!!
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 12:03:46 PM EST
once he realizes how much its gonna cost to go 10+1 DA i bet he will decide 8+1 is ok, and find something cheaper.
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 3:17:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By mattsd:
once he realizes how much its gonna cost to go 10+1 DA i bet he will decide 8+1 is ok, and find something cheaper.



mattsd:

Didn't notice the budget issue before. A good low cap compact, like the Colt OM or Kimber Compact will set you back about $600 before any 'smithing (which the Colt needs). The non-limited Paras should run about the same. If you shop around, you can get a Limited for less than $650, again, before any work. No offense, but I guess you gotta figure, if you are going to carry, what your life is worth and buy accordingly. You can always fix it up as you go.

My favorite concealed carry rig is a Kramer Paddle holster. Again pricey, but worth it.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 5:05:36 AM EST
I agree with the $$$ comment...what's yours and your family's lives worth? You want something very reliable.

As for mag capacity, I carry a full-sized Government 1911 but only carry 7-round mags...even though the 8-rounders fit in no problem. Why? First, because single-stack mags are THE MOST RELIABLE magazines, period. I pick 7-rounders over 8 because every bullet feeds identically (sometimes with 8-rounders the last bullet feels different when loading, I don't know why).

For about $500-550 (with a lot of shopping) you can get a nice Springfield "loaded" 1911...whether Government, Officers, Compact, or Ultra-Compact sized. Shop around, and you'll find the deal.
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