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Posted: 1/8/2002 11:31:20 AM EDT
I am going to look at one tomorrow and don't know what it is. Supposedly a pre-ban and the guy is asking $1100. Don't these people buy mil-spec parts and assemble a completed rifle??? can anyone point me to a website with info?

John
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 11:50:10 AM EDT
John,

Check out the FedOrd info at http://www.fulton-armory.com/FedOrdReceivers.htm.

There's an interesting picture of the FedOrd assembly line.
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 11:56:42 AM EDT
Federal Ordnance was in business (maybe still is) before the ban. Many or all their semi version M14s are preban.

Now the not so good news. Some people don't have a high opinion of their product. For an informed opinion I suggest you visit Fulton Armory and check out their discussion on the different makers of these rifles.

IMO you are better off buying one of the Springfield Armory M1As, or a Chinese reciever and building from that with USGI parts. Or, buy a used one in the flavor you want. Anything but Federal Ordnance. Actually, if you plan on scoping the rifle and have to have a semi/mag fed .308 I suggest the Armalite AR10. M14s are great with iron sights but just aren't suited to scoping for reasons of cheekweld and scope height.

As to preban/post ban I see no real advantage to preban. Unless you really need that pistol grip and bayonet lug there is no difference.

Aw hell, here it is. An article by Clint McGee of Fulton Armory.
============================================
On Fed Ord Receivers...
by Clint McKee

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clint, tell us about Fed Ord receivers

Many (most) of the Fed Ord M14's are unsafe to fire, IMHO. The company is no longer in business, so you have no warranty recourse.

They came in 2 flavors: Fed Ord receiver made for G.I. bolt & all G.I. parts (best case scenario since if the receiver is no good, at least you have some good parts); Fed Ord receiver made for Chinese bolt & all Chinese parts (worst case scenario, bad receiver & bad parts).

The common problems with the receivers include poor/no locking lug contact on one or both locking lugs of receiver/bolt interface; very poor op rod rail on receiver, causing op rod to fall away from bolt roller; rear sight receiver elevation serrations very shallow/non existent;

Hope this helps.

Clint McKee
==========================================
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 12:02:50 PM EDT
Is the Federal Ordinance of EL Monte, Calif? If so, this company is no longer in business. I would look into Fulton Armory reqarding info on M14-type rifles www.fulton-armory.com. There isn't that much difference between a pre and a post ban rifle. For $1100 I would seriously think about a Springfield Armory M1A, unless of course you have special project in mind for the Fed Ord M14.
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 1:08:28 PM EDT
I have owned and shot several.
If it has USGI parts AND you can run 10 rounds through 3 mags each then buy it for $600-700.
When they work,they work OK and function.
cpermd
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 2:28:04 PM EDT
Had one many years ago and loved it , shot it a bunch w/o trouble. I think I paid $400 for it back around 1990. I agree , if you are going to spend over $800 , BUY a springfield M1A , they are 1st Class!!!
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 4:35:59 PM EDT
well....I read everyone's reply twice and looked at what Fulton armory had to say and I think I will stay away. Guy said he wanted my Colt HBar + cash. Wanted an M14 for about 25 years, but if I waited this long I can wait a little longer for a Springfield.

Saw a guy with an excellent Garand last month at a gun show and he wanted $400 and I didn't buy it (too close to Christmas) because I was holding out for M1A

Oh and FNC80 I was impressed with all the technology used at the FedOrd assembly plant.
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 6:39:59 PM EDT
Wise decision to ignore Fed Ord. One of our shooters bought one at a Gun Show several years ago.Poor fitting parts and we couldn't get a decent group from it no matter what type of ammo was used.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 5:47:31 PM EDT
yooooooooooooohi!!!! Just got off the phone with the guy (never did see the FedOrd M14)
He wants my Colt HBar + 3 30 round mags + $250 cash.

If it was a Springfield maybe yes, but after the replies I think not for FedOrd.

thanks, John
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 6:31:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2002 6:38:16 PM EDT by stator]
JMO, next time you look at a used M14 clone or M1A, ask for the parts card. This should contain a list of all parts and it's source. If a USGI part is listed, it should note the ID stamping (will be the drawing number) and the manufacturer's code (SA, H&R, TRW, WIN, etc.).

Any M14 or M1A owner who knows anything about his/her rifle does this. Also, stay away from any reweld USGI M14 receivers (MKS) as BATF, being the jackbooted thugs they are, are trying to force owners to sign abandonment papers.

Here's a list of parts that are stamped if USGI:
Receiver, Oprod, Trigger housing, Hammer, Safety, Rear sight base, Windage Knob, barrel, and probably some more I can't think of right now. Some parts not being USGI is not bad since the cost to replace with such part can be under $10 or not more than $50. However, some are very expensive such as a USGI oprod. An excellent USGI oprod with good geometry and not reweld or bent will cost about $200. You can buy oprods from the CMP for $50 each but I understand that you have to buy 3 or 4 to get one in great shape.

You may find it interesting to call the seller back and ask him for the listing of USGI parts on it. It will be interesting to find out if he is pushing the FedOrd with the cheap repro parts. If so, then he is trying to screw you without lube.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 6:44:19 PM EDT
STATOR: does this mean there IS a FedOrd WITH USGI parts. Everyone is advising to stay from it and the Fulton Armory page doesn't think much of them. Can you elaborate?????

Actually this man is a good guy, he only knows what he was told when he bought it. AND he keeps emphasizing it is a pre-ban.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 7:05:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JMO:
Actually this man is a good guy, he only knows what he was told when he bought it. AND he keeps emphasizing it is a pre-ban.



I would like to re-iterate, there is not much difference between a pre and post ban M14/M1A. It doesn't come with a pistol grip, and the only thing that is left is a flash suppressor. If you buy a post ban the factory will have a muzzle brake. Most guys that buy a pre-ban AR15 want to put on a collapsible stock, and the bird cage flash suppressor. I would just keep your AR instead of wasting your money on a questionable Fed Ord. Just tell your friend you changed your mind.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 7:13:16 PM EDT
FedOrd made them with USGI parts, with Chinese parts, and mixed whatever parts. Anyway you cut it $1100 is WAY TOO MUCH for a FedOrd M-14 pre-ban or no. The receiver is junk. There may be some that work, but all that I've seen looked like crap. I don't mean just looks, but the way they were made, machined, assembled, everything was slip shod. There is a reason FedOrd is no longer in business. If you're buying a FedOrd, figure that you're getting what the parts alone are worth in value. A USGI parts kit is $700 for NIW parts. Chinese parts are of no worth. Mix and match parts are worth even less.

I'm not an idiot when it comes to the M-14. I bought a Polytech for $450 and a NIW TRW parts kit from Orion 7 for $695. I built mine myself, rebarelling, fitting, headspace, the works. I learned quite a bit. Mine cost $1150 total and now I have all TRW USGI parts on a milspec dimensioned forged receiver.

If you buy that gun, you are getting screwed. No other way to put it.

Ross

Link Posted: 1/9/2002 9:24:10 PM EDT
Years ago,I ordered two FedOrd M14SA rifles.
They came with all USGI parts and were wonderful firearms.
I sold them and made $125 on each.Damn that was DUMB.
cpermd
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 6:49:21 AM EDT
STATOR or anybody: How do you tell if parts are USGI???? I don't know how to field strip one.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 8:10:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2002 8:13:46 AM EDT by stator]
The preban M14 clone or M1A is required if you want to put the E5(?) stock on it. This stock has the pistol grip designed to make the M14 more controllable during full-auto.

M14 USGI parts are stamped with the drawing number and manufacturer code just like the Garands are. The easiest USGI parts to locate are the receiver (stay away if so) and the bolt. Each of these are stamped so that they are visible. For the bolt, you will see a seven digit drawing number (I don't remember it) and a manufacturer code of SA, HRA, or 66118. 66118 being Winchester.

The oprod will be stamped on the outside elbow just below what is visible. So you will need to field strip it. It will be stamped 7267064 SA or with another manufacturers code. The hammer is stamped on the leading face. The trigger housing is stamped on the left side. The safety is stamped on the visible side. The windage know is stamped on the side and is visible. The rear sight base is stamped on the bottom. The rear aperature is stamped on the top of the shaft. You will need to extend it by turning the elevation knob to expose it from the sight base cover. If it is a hooded aperature with the 1/2 minute elevation feature, then it is USGI. The barrel is stamped up near the throat and is visible when you pull the oprod back. There is probably more stampings that I'm not remembering at the moment.

To field strip, pull the rear portion of the trigger guard down and forward. Then pull the trigger guard and the rest of the trigger group down and out of the rifle stock. Once this is down, turn the rifle upside down. Hold your hand in front of the receiver on the handguard so that the rifle is reasonably balanced. Then with the other hand, push up on the buttstock. This will separate the receiver/barrel group from the stock. Now you need to disengage the oprod spring guide from the bottom side of the receiver. Push back on the oprod spring to relieve the tension on the oprod spring guide. Push the pin out of the head of the guide and then pull it up and out along with the spring. Now for the tricky part of removing the oprod. Turn the receiver/barrel group right side up. Pull the oprod back almost all the way until the back end of the oprod is aligned with the keyway slot milled into the rear upper oprod track of the receiver. Then pull the oprod handle up and out until it disengages from the track in the receiver. Then pull the oprod back to completely remove. The trick is to align the oprod with the keyway. I believe the proper position will be around 3/4" before the oprod is in the rear most position. It will take some practice for this to become second nature.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 8:34:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By stator:
The preban M14 clone or M1A is required if you want to put the E5(?) stock on it. This stock has the pistol grip designed to make the M14 more controllable during full-auto.


I stand corrected. I had forgotten about that stock.

So how much does a new M1A from Springfield cost?
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 9:05:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By warlord:
I would like to re-iterate, there is not much difference between a pre and post ban M14/M1A. It doesn't come with a pistol grip, and the only thing that is left is a flash suppressor. If you buy a post ban the factory will have a muzzle brake. Most guys that buy a pre-ban AR15 want to put on a collapsible stock, and the bird cage flash suppressor. I would just keep your AR instead of wasting your money on a questionable Fed Ord. Just tell your friend you changed your mind.



The post-bans have flash suppressors too, unless you are in PRK. The only difference between a pre-ban and a post-ban is the bayonet lug. An owner of a pre-ban can also install an E2 pistol grip stock without any legality issues.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 11:36:01 AM EDT
According to a recent post on another list, Kirk Hays reported that Springfield has run out of many USGI components, and are now substituting reproduction parts. Walt Kuleck had also said this.

Among the problem's Kirk has seen are mis-indexed barrels, parts wearing on each other to cause a "gray paste", blotchy parkerizing, oprods hitting stocks, and dimensional miscues in receivers.

If I were set on buying a Springfield now, I'd look at buying a good used rifle with as much USGI content as possible.

The M1A I have now was bought in the early/mid 90's and has all USGI, except the receiver and bbl. My Fulton Armory Polytech M14S is all TRW, except the receiver and the Douglas-Barnett bbl.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 3:49:51 PM EDT
It is the M14E2 stock
This is one of mineThey are getting hard to find in Walnut and the front grips have gotten outrageous.

cpermd
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 4:39:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FNC80:
The M1A I have now was bought in the early/mid 90's and has all USGI, except the receiver and bbl. My Fulton Armory Polytech M14S is all TRW, except the receiver and the Douglas-Barnett bbl.



My pre-ban standard M1A has all GI parts from Springfield (except the receiver of course), including a nice Winchester barrel. Strangely my pre-ban M1A Supermatch, which pre-dates my standard pre-ban has a non GI trigger housing - but everything other than the Springfield med-weight barel and receiver are all USGI. I've also heard that USGI parts are getting scarce - but a good source of spares still exist with the CMP
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 6:20:35 PM EDT
you guys are scaring me talking about parts running out. I know where a new in box basic Springfield is for $1300 in a town about 3 hours from here. Is this decent pricing?

I know where a Norinco is with asking price of $700 (used) Wouldn't you end up with 1200-1300 by the time someone put in all USGI parts and re-heat treated the receiver (or whatever it is they do).

By the way I called the guy that caused me to start this thread and told him everything I learned from this site and that I would give him $400 for his FedOrd IF it had USGI parts and he lost interest. I am going to print this thread and take to gun shows as a guide.
thanks to all
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 8:33:38 PM EDT
JMO,

Why not print out articles from the Fulton Armory FAQ? Those are the guys who build and repair these rifles.

IMHO, for $1300, you're better off getting a good used SA rifle with all USGI components (and still have ~$300 for ammo) or buy a Norinco/Polytech M14S (for ~$500) and have Fulton build a rifle on a receiver that's dimensionally and metallurgically the closest you can come to a real M14 without all the nasty NFA paperwork. The gray paste comment scares the crap outta me.
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