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6/21/2017 8:25:40 PM
Posted: 12/21/2001 11:06:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2001 11:03:55 AM EDT by shooterX308]
Just bought this NIB Rem 700 PSS, an $800 wonder of modern firearm fabrication, from a dealer over the phone. The dealer is reputable and I don't blame him for a thing, but check this out. (BTW, PSS stand for Police Service Special. If the Boyz'n'Blu are getting this sort of quality, I can see how crime might actually pay!

I unpack the rifle, and this is the first thing I notice: The barrel bears on the right side of the stock.


Damn, I think, there's something wrong with this stock. So I look down the bore (after I clean about an inch of black crud out of it):
.

Can you see the bend in the barrel? A few measurements later I'm confirming the barrel curves right, then left and down. The bore at the muzzle is .050" to the right and .075" below the reciever center line.

I called Remington, who is sending out a call tag to pick up one of their finest rifles for repair. Taking bets on

a) How long this will take?

b) Will Remington replace the barrel or just try to twist it more?

c) How many times will I have to send it back to Remington before I lose my mind?

HoHoHO, Merry Christmas.

shooter
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 12:37:00 PM EDT
Should have saved your time and some money and just bought the Savage 10FP!.

Flame on!
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 12:37:02 PM EDT
Should've bought a Savage.
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 1:01:13 PM EDT
You beat that call by 2 seconds
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 1:06:39 PM EDT
I bought a M700 PSS in 223 Remington about 2 and 1/2 years ago. The barrel was bent at the chamber/throat/leade and at the muzzle. The barrel would flex visibly approximately 1/8 inch when you tightened the front action screw. The best group I could manage with the best ammo was 1 and 1/2 inches. When contacted Remingtons' position was that '....it shoots'. I replaced the barrel with a Schneider stainless steel and the stock with a McMillan M40. After other accurizing work the worst group I have shot is now 1 and 1/4 inch. Other groups have been considerably better. I would buy another Remington, but, I would buy the cheapest M700 available at Wal mart and plan on working on it. Good Luck. Charles.
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 1:16:49 PM EDT
Sorry to hear of your Remington woes. I bought my M700 Sendero in .308 4 or 5 years ago. It consistantly shoots better than 1/2 MOA. I guess I got lucky.
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 2:25:29 PM EDT
Hey sorry about the rifle and I hope remington handles this adequately.

FWIW, at least you still have a sense of humor about it.

At least the bore is rifled.


Link Posted: 12/21/2001 3:00:25 PM EDT
How about you give them a damn chance?!
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 3:08:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By haulingice:
How about you give them a damn chance?!



You mean a Second chance? Looks like this POS should never has been placed in the stream of commerce to being with. It's a damn shame to put MADE IN AMERICA on substandard products. Would you be so optimistic upon discovering such blatant defects in your brand new rifle?
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 3:25:40 PM EDT
Hey shooterX didn’t you know that the Remington police rifle was made so that the shooter can shoot around corners and not expose themselves. That’s why its bent. You have to order either a left turn or a right turn.Hehehe!! In all seriousness I have been hearing allot of complaints about the new Remington guns especially the new key locked bolt. I think the best thing to do now is find a good smith and build the gun the way you want it or get a Savage.
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 3:34:27 PM EDT
Shooter,
I purchased a PSS 2 years ago; when I went to mount the scope I found one of the plug screws for the scope base was cross threaded and would not come out. I had to bitch a little but Remington drilled and tapped them out to 8x32 and refinished the complete rifle. I had it back in two weeks and it shoots .5 MOA. I think they will take care of you. Just stay on top of them.
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 4:50:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2001 4:43:47 PM EDT by shooterX308]

Originally Posted By Glockster35:
Should have saved your time and some money and just bought the Savage 10FP!.

Flame on!



This may very well be the last Remington factory rifle I buy. Sad, ain't it? I mean, this is supposed to be a police tactical rifle. Gimme a break. I hear you about the Savage! Question is, where were you when I was shelling out the money? Bad Glockster.
Very Bad.


Sorry to hear of your Remington woes. I bought my M700 Sendero in .308 4 or 5 years ago. It consistantly shoots better than 1/2 MOA. I guess I got lucky.



I've had two Senderos and both have shot more than satifactorily. I wanted a factory 300Win to shoot in factory-only 1000 yard and F class competition, so I figure, hey, it says Police Service Special (ooooh, the Sniper Rifle, ooooh), and thinking it's a Sendero in a different stock, and because they're so uncommon they must be really special, I decide to get one. Joke's on me.



Hey sorry about the rifle and I hope remington handles this adequately.

FWIW, at least you still have a sense of humor about it.

At least the bore is rifled.



Thanks. If I don't laugh, I'm liable to commit homicide.


How about you give them a damn chance?!

Oh, get a real job. 50 Cali said it for me, and time's short. I did give them a "damn chance". What the hell do you call $800 laid out based on their reputation?.
Garon-damn-tee ya I'll hesitate a moment or two before a pick up another Remmy. And look at it real close, too.


Hey shooterX didn’t you know that the Remington police rifle was made so that the shooter can shoot around corners and not expose themselves. That’s why its bent. You have to order either a left turn or a right turn.Hehehe


Yup, told my office manager the very same thing today. You should see what I did to the Leupold trying to get it to see around corners...


I think they will take care of you. Just stay on top of them.



I hope so, I'm gonna at least give them the chance. Stay tuned!

shooter
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 6:25:06 PM EDT
Remingtons are excellent. Flukes happen. thats why they have warranties. I don't think you can tell if the barrel was crooked by that picture. If it was something catastrophic would happen. I suppose it was test fired by all the crud you removed. I think it may be the stock.
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 6:48:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By shooter505:
Hey shooterX didn’t you know that the Remington police rifle was made so that the shooter can shoot around corners and not expose themselves. That’s why its bent. You have to order either a left turn or a right turn.Hehehe!! In all seriousness I have been hearing allot of complaints about the new Remington guns especially the new key locked bolt. I think the best thing to do now is find a good smith and build the gun the way you want it or get a Savage.




If Remington can't/won't fix it, GA Precision can - as a way of suggesting a good smith.
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 7:22:22 PM EDT


Should have had a real gunsmith build you one.
Doesn't cost all that much more.
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 7:37:27 PM EDT
I just sold one of my 700 SS 223 BDL's to a guy in KS. He had ordered a Mod 7 SS in 223. He said the barrel had chatter marks its full length and galling when the reciever was bored for the bolt. He stated at the same time th dealer ordered a 308 in the same model and gun was a POS also. Took him 6 months to get his money back from Rem. Suppose they would have sent another rifle sooner as they hate giving refunds. Hope all of their products aren't ending up this way as I have always been a big fan. But of course this same guy sent his M77/22hornet back to Ruger 2 times before it shot so guess they all make junk. That makes consumers appreciate the good ones. If barrel has a big bend don't shoot them thar long bullets or they might not make the bend. Yea I know, always a smart ass. Good day.
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 8:03:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoCompromise:
Remingtons are excellent. Flukes happen.



Wrong you are sir, Remington Custom Shop rifles are excellent, the current production rifles are a hit and miss proposition.
With a production Remington, you roll the dice as to wether it will shoot or not. Unfortunately for Shooter, the dice came up snake eyes.
I have had a Sendero in 25-06 that wasn't worth the steel it was smelted from, A .243 VLS that was lucky to group into a five gallon bucket at 300 yds., and a .223 VSSF that had such a hideous bore that I didn't even shoot it but returned it for a refund.
All three within the last six months mind you.

Buy a Savage, throw away the trigger and stock, replace them with substitutes from Sharp Shooter Supply, and then you have a rifle that will shoot out of the box against any production Remmy out there.

You can wipe a monkeys a*s with current Remington rifles, they are beyond going downhill, they hit bottom.

Chuck
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 9:22:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2001 9:15:45 PM EDT by BusMaster007]
What are you trying to do, scare me?

I'm planning on getting a 700P series rifle in .308 very soon.
I was seriously considering the LTR and now am leaning toward the PSS for the ability to change it back to original or into a "real" long range rifle.
This news of shoddy workmanship is a bit unsettling, but, I'm a loyal customer and will most likely take the plunge.

When I do, I'll come back and check this thread for resource material on what to look for!
Geez.

The plan was for a lighter and more portable rifle than the benchrest style, but, I really like the idea of the longer bbl. after all.
The stock and scope choices will be a bit lighter. Hogue and Leupold Tactical.

I'll report back.
Thanks for the heads up.

Edited for: I can't see the photos you posted for whatever reason.
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 9:29:50 PM EDT
There is a fella in my area that is an expert machinist who has built ultra-long-range target rifles for a couple benchrest guys who live in Grottoes. This fella will build, finish, and stock you a rifle that will shoot 5-6" groups at a thousand yards for about a thousand bucks. I've considered having him build me up a .308 sniper-type rifle on a Mauser action. That would be a mighty fine weapon. Problem is finding the money.
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 9:35:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 9:36:19 PM EDT
Mr nocompromise:

I am a retired Marine armorer (MOS 2102) and a gunsmith. I have attended professional gunsmithing school. I removed the barrel from my PSS and put it in a lathe. It was so bent that it looked like you had installed a dogs hind leg in the chuck and attempted to stabilize it in a steady rest. It was so bent that it was not possible to stabilize it in the steady rest for more than a few seconds. I do know what I am talking about. Charles. jarhead Gunner.
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 9:49:44 PM EDT
Uh-oh.
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 9:50:29 PM EDT
Ooooh I hate to say this and I am probably going to get flamed for it, but who cares right? I just bought one of their cheap-o Model 710 in a 30-06... Dead On Balls Accurate! We all at the range were pretty impressed that one of the guys went the same day and bought one himself.

I wouldnt worry about Remington. They will take care of you.
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 4:14:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2001 4:11:38 AM EDT by shooterX308]

Originally Posted By NoCompromise:
Remingtons are excellent. Flukes happen. thats why they have warranties. I don't think you can tell if the barrel was crooked by that picture. If it was something catastrophic would happen. I suppose it was test fired by all the crud you removed. I think it may be the stock.



Hyuck, hyuck, duuhhh, looky here boys, that dumb ole shooter don't know what he's talking bout!

Well, I'll say most Remingtons are good as a rule; occasionally you'll get one that I would classify as excellent, and occasionally (like now), a piece of crap. To be honest, this is the first crap piece I've had, but damn, considering what it's supposed to be, it sure fits the term clusterfuck.

And yes, Virginia, the barrel is bent. Chucked up between centers in my lathe, the damn thing looks like a corkscrew as it rotates. With regards to the stock, when indexed off the front ring of the reciever, the stock is very, very straight. As far as the photo goes, it really isn't the same as looking at the real deal - a bitch of a pic to take, but you should be able to see the light reflex at 6 oclock take a ralph just past the leade. And that's only in the first two inches of the barrel. (Sorry; you do know what the leade is, right)

And the crud? Let me elaborate: I scrubbed with a brush and JB's for 10 minutes before the bore looked shiny. Damn straight it was test fired; probably used to fight of the liberal congress coming through the doors, judging by the amount of crud in there. NOBODY who gave a damn about their reputation would ever allow a rifle, especially a new one, to go out the door in this condition. I know I wouldn't.

However, if you are a mass production oriented factory owned by a greed British for-profit-at-all-costs consortium, then, maybe, I can see it!
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 4:17:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Waldo:


Should have had a real gunsmith build you one.
Doesn't cost all that much more.



Yeah, I don't charge myself near as much as I would other people..

Anyhoo, as I said above, I need a rifle to compete in long range factory class competition. I gambled on Remington and so far, I'm out. There are only two kinds of factory rifle owners: those that have gotten bad ones, and those that will!
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 4:45:10 AM EDT
I was debating between the 700 PSS and the FN "Police Special". I guess I know who will get my money now. It looks like Remmy had a QA problem these days.
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 5:13:09 AM EDT
If it makes you feel any better, my new Model 70 Winchester is nearly as AFU. They even offered to buy it back (not replace, just buy back). But since left-handed Model 70s aren't exactly common everday items, I'll play the game awhile and see if they can square it away. I think Remington will treat you right and in a timely fashion, but it sure sucks to get something like that right off the bat.
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 5:18:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Muzzlebreak:
Sorry to hear of your Remington woes. I bought my M700 Sendero in .308 4 or 5 years ago. It consistantly shoots better than 1/2 MOA. I guess I got lucky.



I don't know whats going on at Remington but I have a Sendero in 300 Win. Mag. and never had a problem with. I've shot 3/4" groups at 200 yards with it.

I think, at times, some companies let their guard down. I hope Remington resolves the problem to your satisfaction.
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 5:21:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 50cali:

Originally Posted By haulingice:
How about you give them a damn chance?!



You mean a Second chance? Looks like this POS should never has been placed in the stream of commerce to being with. It's a damn shame to put MADE IN AMERICA on substandard products. Would you be so optimistic upon discovering such blatant defects in your brand new rifle?



I agree BUT we don't know if this is something that happened in transit, perhaps at a distributor, etc... Either way, it should be repaired properly.
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 6:17:58 AM EDT
I have a PSS and like it. My AR-10T outshoots it though. If you can handle the extra expense, I'd bypass it and go straight to the ArmaLite especially if you're a Cop.
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 7:03:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2001 6:58:08 AM EDT by shooterX308]

Originally Posted By misterhemi:
I agree BUT we don't know if this is something that happened in transit, perhaps at a distributor, etc... Either way, it should be repaired properly.



For what it's worth, I'm 99.99% certain this is a manufacturing problem. Most major rifle manufacturers have one or two guys whose job it is to straighten barrels which came out of production with excessive bend. These mass production barrels are turned out like with little oversight. I believe Remingtons are hammer forged, involving literally hammering a steel tube around a mandrel having the rifling intaglio on it; the mandrel is then removed and the barrel lapped. By the nature of this type of production, bends will happen. I think this one slipped by the straightening room, however.

Barrel straightening is an art more than a science. The guy doing the job sights down the barrel at a lighted grid and observes the light pattern reflection. He then applies a screw typpe vise similar to a pipe bender at the appropriate point until "acceptably" straight. Such is the art of mass produced firearms!

The polling results are making me feel a little better about my prospects with Remington, however!

shooter.
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 7:24:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2001 7:21:22 AM EDT by Waldo]

Originally Posted By shooterX308:

Originally Posted By Waldo:


Should have had a real gunsmith build you one.
Doesn't cost all that much more.



Yeah, I don't charge myself near as much as I would other people..

Anyhoo, as I said above, I need a rifle to compete in long range factory class competition.



Well, the above wasn't in your original post and I didn't read the whole thread.
Still, can't you barrel up a 700 action to the same specs and put it in an HS stock and comply? What happens when your factory barrel gets a long throat? Can't replace it?

As for my Remington quality control moment. I bought a new 700 ML and the allenheads of the bedding screws looked like they were installed with an impact wrench they were stripped out that bad.
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 10:23:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2001 10:16:30 AM EDT by shooterX308]

Originally Posted By Waldo:

Well, the above wasn't in your original post and I didn't read the whole thread.
Still, can't you barrel up a 700 action to the same specs and put it in an HS stock and comply? What happens when your factory barrel gets a long throat? Can't replace it?



Sorry, yer right. To my understanding, it has to be totally factory components. Muzzlebrakes are allowed in some classes. Believe me, if I could slap a Hart barrel on any Remington action and comply, I wouldn't have bought this rifle under any condition.



As for my Remington quality control moment. I bought a new 700 ML and the allenheads of the bedding screws looked like they were installed with an impact wrench they were stripped out that bad.



They are installed with impact drivers! OSHA regulations for the workplace, repetetive injury protection and all that.

This is pretty sad. I remember when Olin bought Winchester and what a disaster that was until the employees bought it back. Maybe, just maybe something like this will happen here once people start fleeing to Savage and other makers who, at least for the moment, seem to have their act together.
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 2:15:24 PM EDT
This is interesting. I've not heard of any problems with Remington until this board. I too have an m700vs in .308 that shoots fantastic groups. It is a few years old though.
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 2:50:02 PM EDT
All Remington owners, prospective or otherwise should not despair.
If you roll the dice enough times, you will eventually beat the house. There are remingtons coming out of the factory currently that will shoot some down right scary groups. There are also the complete FUBAR rifles like Shooter wound up with.
My current stance on Remmys is "If I can't shoot it first, I will not buy it" If the thing wont show promise with Fed. GM, then there is no sense working with it.
Needless to say, buying a NIB Remmy is out of the question. I have bought a used .223 VS that a fellow let me shoot at the range, that I would
think long and hard about trading for a 40X.
The guy was understanding fortunately enough, and I compensated him with an extra $25 for his time.
If you buy a new Remmy from a dealer, eyeball that dude VERY closely before plunking down the cash. If you are purchasing one over the web, demand a 3 day inspection and give it the same eyeballing.

Or buy a Savage!!!

Chuck
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 4:08:16 PM EDT

I remember when Olin bought Winchester and what a disaster that was until the employees bought it back.

How old are you? Olin bought Winchester in 1932 and sold the U.S. made firearms portion in 1981 (Olin continued to make the 101 and 23 shotguns) to U.S. Repeating Arms Company, an employee-owned company.
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 7:04:15 PM EDT
Well a good friend of mine has a .308 LTR &
it consistentlyu shoots half-inch groups at 200yrds
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 2:33:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By shooterX308:
They are installed with impact drivers! OSHA regulations for the workplace, repetetive injury protection and all that.



Standard for bedding screws is to torque to 65 inch lbs. It would probably take 30 FOOT lbs to twist the inside of a sockethead screw like that, unless it was too soft to begin with.
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 4:03:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2001 3:06:55 PM EDT by Striker]

Originally Posted By 300ydClean:
All Remington owners, prospective or otherwise should not despair.
If you roll the dice enough times, you will eventually beat the house. There are remingtons coming out of the factory currently that will shoot some down right scary groups. There are also the complete FUBAR rifles like Shooter wound up with.
My current stance on Remmys is "If I can't shoot it first, I will not buy it" If the thing wont show promise with Fed. GM, then there is no sense working with it.
Needless to say, buying a NIB Remmy is out of the question. I have bought a used .223 VS that a fellow let me shoot at the range, that I would
think long and hard about trading for a 40X.
The guy was understanding fortunately enough, and I compensated him with an extra $25 for his time.
If you buy a new Remmy from a dealer, eyeball that dude VERY closely before plunking down the cash. If you are purchasing one over the web, demand a 3 day inspection and give it the same eyeballing.

Or buy a Savage!!!

Chuck



What he said.

I need to say this is the first FUBAR Remington I have personally experienced in many years of shooting, and I have had maybe a dozen. I never thought until now that buying one from another dealer NIB would be a problem until now. The dealer offered to exchange for a Sendero, but I decided to roll the dice and see what Remington Customer Service can do for me as I really prefer the stock on the PSS over the Sendero stock for my evil purposes. So, it's sitting in the back of the safe until the UPS call tag comes, and we'll see after that.

Let's see if the Santa icon is working yet:[<|:D>]
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 6:10:49 PM EDT
I recently bought a Marlin 45-70 lever gun.Right out of the box the bore looks like sandpaper.This was after I gave it a good scrubbing.It's so ruff that if you push a dry patch down it you can feel it drag all the way through.I tried fire-lapping it but it was a waste of time.On the out side of the box it says "Made with pride by American craftsman".
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 5:48:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2001 3:08:02 PM EDT by Striker]

Originally Posted By XM21Nick:
I recently bought a Marlin 45-70 lever gun.Right out of the box the bore looks like sandpaper.This was after I gave it a good scrubbing.It's so ruff that if you push a dry patch down it you can feel it drag all the way through.I tried fire-lapping it but it was a waste of time.On the out side of the box it says "Made with pride by American craftsman".



I've been doing a little cost analysis on firearms manufacture lately. In order for a manufacturer to turn a reasonable profit, his produciton costs cannot exceed 10% of the retail costs. I don't know what Remington pays HS Precision for the stocks they use, but I've heard they pay their barrel jobbers $10 by the piece. Those factors considered, I suppose its no surprise what we get. However, I've never seen anything this bad; in fact, most Remington barrels, especially Senderos, shoot passably well; I've had a couple that hold moa at 1000 yards! I just have to assume that I got the proverbial Friday afternoon/Monday morning lemon!

Merry Christmas to all!

[<|:D>]
Hmmm. I wonder if the Santa icon works over at AK47.net.....
Better late then never. You have to use a capital D.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 8:01:22 AM EDT
you should have gotten one of these:



HUNTER FROM ARGENTINA
OUT.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 9:53:32 AM EDT
Looks like a Model 70. Or a FN Police Special. Same thing.

[<|:D>][<|:D>][<|:D>][<|:D>][<|:D>][<|:D>][<|:D>][<|:D>][<|:D>][<|:D>]
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 10:53:37 AM EDT
Also, The Ruger M77MKII VLE is a very good rifle and a better value. You can get these around 650.00. They come with a heavy barrel, floated, Harris Bipod. This rifle is the LEO model, and shoots sub-moa outta the box.

Link Posted: 12/24/2001 11:06:12 AM EDT
shooterx308, I'm sorry your PSS is so obviously FUBAR. I have owned two, one in 223 and another in 308. Both were excellent guns. I still have the 223 and only sold the 308 to get cash for a custom made 308 I wanted. I hope that Remington treats you right. Best. Watch-Six
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 11:35:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2001 11:30:22 AM EDT by Ryan_Calhoun]
I recently purchased the Remington 700P (Police) in .308. It seems that PSS (Police Sniper Special) was even a bit too politically incorrect to keep.

Anyway, I have a Simmons 3-9X hunting scope on it and shot .75 inch groups at 100 and 50 yds. my first outing using Winchester 150gr hunting ammo. at 3.5X. I am going back to the range to shoot at a higher power this Thursday and also to do some shooting at the 300M range. I will let everone know how it goes.

I was in the market for the 700VS model for hunting, but was unable to find one, so I picked up the PSS. Sorry that yours was so grossly flawed. Mine is just fine.

On a side note, I hope to attend the Shindig in Illinois this coming May/June after I establish some legitimacy here by becoming a paying member. My folks live nearby in Missouri, so it would tie in nicely with a visit. I will bring my "M4gery," but I hope everyone will forgive me if I bring my new rifle for some precision work. It is technically "black" and also a "rifle," right? Oh, and I will share, of course.

From Florida, with love.
-Ryan

p.s. I don't use a handle 'cuz I'm tired of hiding and having to adjust my vocabulary for the masses. Thanks.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 1:12:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HUNTER223:
you should have gotten one of these:

HUNTER FROM ARGENTINA
OUT.



Ahh, you ended up with the Stealth. Good man. I personally have a preference for push feed actions, but that's another flamefest, eh?
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 1:15:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Big_Bear:


[<|:D>][<|:D>][<|:D>][<|:D>][<|:D>][<|:D>][<|:D>][<|:D>][<|:D>][<|:D>]



yeah, yeah, I know, big "D", not little "d". I guess if we had a decent webmaster, I wouldn't have had that problem.

I said that with a smile, Goatboy.


[<|:D>]
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