Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Log In

A valid email is required.
Password is required.
Posted: 11/28/2001 8:19:21 AM EST
FYI: Stay away from the new Winchester Model 70 300 WSM caliber rifles. They are pure crap and unless you are equipped w/ a lathe and milling machine you will not be able to chamber any of Winchester's own 300 WSM rounds in the rifle. If you are able to get the rounds into the chamber you'll be even more disappointed with the 3-4 inch groups at 100 yards.

Friend and rifle builder has been tweaking now for 2 weeks on a brand new one, which wouldn't even chamber their own rounds for the rifle. Local friend at Carter's Country has one that's come back twice .... same problem. Gunsmith's got his fixed and it looks very promising as a long range shooter, but very few have the repair abilities he does sitting in their garages.

Buyers Beware
Mike
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 8:54:54 AM EST
Just have to ask what your friend thinks about the crooks at Carter's?

Thanks for the info on the 300WSM too.
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 9:15:56 AM EST
I've been hearing some complaints about this. From what I understand, the Browning counterparts to the Winchester 70s aren't having the same troubles. This all brings me to a recent observation I've had about Winchester firearms: slipshod quality and priced higher than a cat's back. On Friday, I finally got my hands on a left-handed Model 70 in .30-06. This gun was absolutely new in the box when I picked it up at the distributor. When I got home and got everything out and installed the bolt I noticed that on the shroud where it's marked "FIRE," mine's been buffed down to the point of being nearly illegible. To see it you quite literally have to hold it just right and look at it from the side. Petty complaint? Maybe, but considering the price of these as compared to their competitors from Ruger and Remington, it ought to be right. I gave $389 for my left-handed Model 77 and all in all the quality is better than my nearly $600 Winchester. After spending most of the morning getting through to their dingaling service department, I'm not sure that I'll be a repeat customer. They seem to have their minds into making cowboy guns and other mostly useless doodads that are being stamped Winchester.
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 9:32:08 AM EST
Brouhaha,
I only deal w/ Roger at the Katy store and am not sure what your refering to, guess their pricing could be better.

Mike
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 9:38:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/28/2001 9:32:05 AM EST by brouhaha]

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
Brouhaha,
I only deal w/ Roger at the Katy store and am not sure what your refering to, guess their pricing could be better.

Mike



Bill Carter is part of the anti-gunshow lobby. He doesn't like losing money. That and their incredibly high prices (at the Spring store at least). I wasn't talking about any individuals other than Bill Carter.

Edited to add: There was even an article about how he's part of a group of dealers that are trying to get gunshows closed down. This was in the NRA mag "America's 1st Freedom" a few years ago.
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 9:41:51 AM EST
Sheesh, Brou I didn't know that, only met him once at the Friends of the NRA dinner a few years back. Thanks for heads up I'll have to give my bud Roger a hard time next time I'm by there.

Mike
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 10:00:38 AM EST
If, for some reason, that has changed...I *might* change my opinion about his stores. *might* is the key word there.

Oh...have you ever been to the Treachwig range in Spring? You have to buy their targets (which suck for sighting in a rifle). If you don't, you are promptly asked to leave.
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 10:28:23 AM EST
Not in 15-20 years, been to the store earlier this year but I do all my shooting nowdays at the 800 yard range off Dad's back porch or at the 1200 yard range we got under lease up around Nacogdoches.

Last few years 'bout all I get from them is reloading stuff, although I did pick up a unfired 20 yr. old Ruger Standard Target 22LR in the used section for $180 two years ago at the Katy store.

Mike
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 11:05:26 AM EST
brouhaha

I've been in Houston for a little over 15yrs &

your assessment of Bill Carter & his stores is

Correct!

I avoid going in to his stores unless it's absolutely necessary.

Thankfull , 99% of the time it's not!
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 11:16:27 AM EST
you keep referring to the Winchesters not being able to chamber their own ammunition......

Keep in mind that Winchester Arms and Winchester Ammunition are seperate companies.

Link Posted: 11/28/2001 11:35:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By Fighting-Illini:
you keep referring to the Winchesters not being able to chamber their own ammunition......

Keep in mind that Winchester Arms and Winchester Ammunition are seperate companies.




Owned by the Same Parent company

U.S. Repeating Arms Corp which owns

Browning , Winchester & Olin Corp.

USRAC is owned by F.N. Herstal

So all one big happy family
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 11:44:00 AM EST

Owned by the Same Parent company

U.S. Repeating Arms Corp which owns

Browning , Winchester & Olin Corp.

USRAC is owned by F.N. Herstal

So all one big happy family.


Negative. Olin Corporation owns and produces Winchester-Western ammunition. USRA doesn't own anything. Browning, USRA, and FN are owned by French conglomerate G.I.A.T. which is subsidized by the French government. As far as USRA and Olin not seeing eye to eye on the guns/ammunition compatibility, the development of the cartridge was a joint project. Why did the Browning end of things get it right and USRA didn't? I just think USRA's QC is a joke. They're nigh impossible to contact due to heavy call volume (hint, hint).
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 11:58:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/28/2001 11:54:51 AM EST by cnatra]

Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:

Owned by the Same Parent company

U.S. Repeating Arms Corp which owns

Browning , Winchester & Olin Corp.

USRAC is owned by F.N. Herstal

So all one big happy family.


Negative. Olin Corporation owns and produces Winchester-Western ammunition. USRA doesn't own anything. Browning, USRA, and FN are owned by French conglomerate G.I.A.T. which is subsidized by the French government. As far as USRA and Olin not seeing eye to eye on the guns/ammunition compatibility, the development of the cartridge was a joint project. Why did the Browning end of things get it right and USRA didn't? I just think USRA's QC is a joke. They're nigh impossible to contact due to heavy call volume (hint, hint).



I may be WRONG(I hate it when that happens:) with Olin in the family tree BUT

check out these links as far as everything else:

www.fnherstal.com
www.winchester-guns.com
www.browning.com
www.browningint.com

I guess I should have dug deeper on the ammo info.
www.winchester.com/ammunition/companyinfo/guns.eye

Link Posted: 11/28/2001 12:02:41 PM EST
I was not suggesting much by that, just merely that it not entirely shocking to have compatibility issues with "their" ammo when it isn't really "their" ammo.
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 12:07:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:
Negative. Olin Corporation owns and produces Winchester-Western ammunition. USRA doesn't own anything. Browning, USRA, and FN are owned by French conglomerate G.I.A.T. which is subsidized by the French government. As far as USRA and Olin not seeing eye to eye on the guns/ammunition compatibility, the development of the cartridge was a joint project. Why did the Browning end of things get it right and USRA didn't? I just think USRA's QC is a joke. They're nigh impossible to contact due to heavy call volume (hint, hint).



So just to make sure I get it right,

G.I.A.T. owns

FN Herstal(Group?) which in turn owns

USRAC/Winchester & Browning

???

www.fnherstal.com

THX
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 12:10:01 PM EST
Yep, and Olin owns the trademark rights to the Winchester name and product names.
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 12:11:05 PM EST
Link Posted: 11/29/2001 9:02:38 AM EST
Do you think the WSM is going to be more popular than th Remington Short Mag.?

I think I'll start a new topic.
Link Posted: 11/29/2001 12:06:48 PM EST
Halfcocked: The .300WSM should be more popular than the .300SAUM because Browning and Winchester both offer this chambering in their full-size rifles. However, I think the Remington 7mmSAUM (when offered in the 700) will develop a following too as will the .270WSM.
Link Posted: 11/29/2001 12:48:36 PM EST
I have bought a few Winchesters in recent years and they are outstanding rifles. I have heard quite a number of comments that they are making great barrels right now. Every rifle I have looked at recently has had great looking wood, probably the best in the industry. Unfortunately, every riflemaker produces a few dogs.
Link Posted: 11/29/2001 2:59:48 PM EST
A few dogs, huh? I think Winchester must be the pound. I've had some experience with both pre- and post-64 Model 70s, but my perception has already been colored negative by this one that I just bought. I sent the bolt back today so that the monkeys in New Haven can try and put a bolt shroud on that doesn't look reworked. In the mail I received a steel trigger guard that I ordered from Brownell's to replace that crappy painted (not anodized) aluminum part and guess what? IT DOESN'T FIT. The floorplate won't close. Niiiiiiice. I called the part manufacturer who also supplies most of the bottom metal for these guns to Winchester and got some interesting dope in return. Seems Winchester is outsourcing this crap to overseas suppliers (the stocks) in order to save some money while they increase their profits. In return they're getting some really swell inletting; floorplates that pop open under recoil, shifting zeroes, unable to make small customizations without major headaches (like me), etc. So the part supplier is offering to correct things for me at no charge. Like I said, maybe I'm picky, but my Model 77 is just finished better all around and when I upgraded the floorplate to blued steel, it fit like a glove. None of this BS and it was $200 less, too.
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 2:10:28 AM EST
About 4 years ago I was looking for my first bolt gun and when I looked at the Winchesters I was appalled at the shoddy machine work on the receiver. I looked a Remingtons and Brownings and both were acceptable. I ended up with a Remington Sendero in 7mm Mag.

I would like to stay with a Remington in a short mag. I have to buy a rifle for my son next year and I was thinking a 700 Sendero in .300 Remington short mag and I could down load a bunch of rounds and gradually work it up as he gets more used to it.

Will they ever make a Sendero in .300 Winchester Short Mag.
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 6:00:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/30/2001 5:56:06 AM EST by flatlander]
I hate to see what's happened to Winchester's quality control - my first highpower rifle was a M70 in 243 back in '68. It would easily put 5 shots into well under an inch with Speer 80gr.PSP's, or Sierra 75HP's or 85BTHP's with WWII surplus H4831 that I bought for 80 cents/lb. The last new M70 I bought was a Heavy Varmint in 223 a few years ago. First barrel had metal displaced out over the bore at the muzzle crown - looked like someone had intentionally taken a 1/8" punch and given it a good rap, with half of the punch hanging out over the bore. Took it to my gunsmith for a fresh 11 degree crown, then when I fired it the first time, discovered the chamber was grossly oversize - cases came out swelled right in front of where the bolt counterbore ended. Sent it back to the factory for a new barrel. This one came with a clean crown, but the chamber was egg-shaped - you could see fired cases 'jump' when you rolled them across a smooth counter top. My gunsmith thought I should send it back again, but I thought "Why bother?", and had him set the barrel back about .060" & recut the chamber with a Wylde reamer. After all that, I found that the rough bore just didn't like moly'd bullets worth a damn, although it shot knotholes with bare ones. I sold it to help finance a Palma rifle project. From now on, when I want a good barrel with a good chamber, I'll pay my gunsmith to thread & chamber them. Don't know if Remington is any better, but I'm not willing to risk any more of my hard-earned $$$ to find out. I do still have a M70 Super Express in .375 H&H that's a beautiful rifle, and is very accurate. I bought it new in '87.

On the ammo compatibility issue - if the ammo is produced to SAAMI specs, it shouldn't make any difference who produced it, and ditto for chambers cut to SAAMI specs. The whole industry depends on these standards to avoid the problem you're having with WSM ammo not chambering. Winchester was buying barrels from Wilson when I got the HV, but I have no idea where they're getting them today.
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 6:28:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/30/2001 6:24:13 AM EST by Arock]
**flatlander sez..."I do still have a M70 Super Express in .375 H&H that's a beautiful rifle, and is very accurate. I bought it new in '87."

I have three recent production M70 Super Express that work good for me. Two came thru the Custom Shop and one is off-the-rack. One Custom Shop job is .300 WM and the other .375 H&H.

The .300 WM is my take-it-everywhere hunting rifle and enjoys my complete confidence. It's NEVER MISSED a shot on game. Used by both the Lovely Bride and me from Africa to Spain to wherever, nothing has ever gotten away from that rifle. It's put thirteen trophies in Safari Club's book the past year. Just luck I guess.

The Custom Shop .375 H&H turned into a hangar queen as the exhibition grade wood and engraving have removed it from my hunting arsenal (bad judgement on my part).

The off-the-rack Super Express is a .375 H&H that's being converted to buffalo medicine of the .458 Lott flavor.

I'll take my luck where I can get it.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 4:30:49 AM EST
All manufacturers will have a QA problem from time to time so I'm not too worried about that. The bigger question is how Winchester handles it.

As for the Winchester vs Remington cartridges, it looks like the Remington is stronger towards the head. That's important. Otherwise they're functionally the same.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 5:37:36 AM EST
Two year Houston resident.

Carter's sells stuff for $100 higher than anywhere else. They will start making things up on the spot. And, last time I went to their range in Spring (live in Champions area), they gave me a hard time about shooting my AR (basically, they wanted me to buy their ammo and didn't like me shooting gun show ammo).

I won't darken their door again. I don't care what they are trying to sell that "no one else in Houston" has. I'd rather drive to Dallas.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 5:51:45 AM EST
I bought a new M 70 in .270 WM a few years ago no complaints here though I do wish it would shoot a little tighter groups. My Dad bought a new one in .22-250 a couple of weeks ago and there's nothing wrong with it either. Maybe this is limited to the new caliber? If so hopefully they get the bugs worked out before they screw themselves out of too many customers.
Top Top