I must say, I don't own a .308.  I see a lot of people employing this as a longer range bolt action round.  Is it really a reality to shoot .308s at 400+ yard distances?  How does .308 compare with the .270, 30-06, .260 (to add to the flame , or the .300 Winchester?  

It just seems to me that the more realistic "job" for this round is semi-auto SURs.

why not 1000 yards?  I think maybe your under estimating this round. My .308's are no fun to shoot at 100 yards. There is no challenge in punching dimes with any of them (cept the operator ).

The .308 very closely replicates the .30-06 balisticaly. It was the "short magnum" of it's time. It does what the .30-06 does in a shorter action. This does make it work very well in semi autos. I guaratee it works great in bolt guns too...... try it

oh, and it will kick your ass in a light bolt gun.

Quoted: Is it really a reality to shoot .308s at 400+ yard distances?  How does .308 compare with the .270, 30-06, .260 (to add to the flame , or the .300 Winchester?

Yes, it is a reality to shoot .308s at 400yds and beyond.  In a hunting situation, 300yd shots are common in wide open spaces like here in Wyoming.  Beyond that, yes the .308 is still lethal to big game, but the shooter has to be positive about how much it will drop.  And, it will drop a good deal compared to the newer/sporter calibers.  I have personally witnessed hunters take elk at 400 and 500yds with a .308win.  They knew exactly how much it would drop at that range and were excellent judges in distance.  That equals a dead elk.

The reason it is popular: It is a NATO round, lots of surplus brass, and the prime reason is it's inherent accuracy.  Compared to sporting rounds, the .308 is mild, slow(more arch in trajectory), but still accurate.  Flatter shooting calibers are easier to shoot well at unknown distances because there is less room for mistakes in the trajectory.  That is why the fast .30's are so popular.  They also hit alot harder than the .308win.   Would I hunt with one? Ya, I have, long range shots, no.  Do I want a .308 "sniper rifle", ya, why?, I don't know.  I already have several 700's that will shoot under 1MOA in calibers that make the .308 look antiquated.  That's the mystique.

Quoted: Quoted: Is it really a reality to shoot .308s at 400+ yard distances?  How does .308 compare with the .270, 30-06, .260 (to add to the flame , or the .300 Winchester?   Yes, it is a reality to shoot .308s at 400yds and beyond.  In a hunting situation, 300yd shots are common in wide open spaces like here in Wyoming.  Beyond that, yes the .308 is still lethal to big game, but the shooter has to be positive about how much it will drop.  And, it will drop a good deal compared to the newer/sporter calibers.  I have personally witnessed hunters take elk at 400 and 500yds with a .308win.  They knew exactly how much it would drop at that range and were excellent judges in distance.  That equals a dead elk. The reason it is popular: It is a NATO round, lots of surplus brass, and the prime reason is it's inherent accuracy.  Compared to sporting rounds, the .308 is mild, slow(more arch in trajectory), but still accurate.  Flatter shooting calibers are easier to shoot well at unknown distances because there is less room for mistakes in the trajectory.  That is why the fast .30's are so popular.  They also hit alot harder than the .308win.   Would I hunt with one? Ya, I have, long range shots, no.  Do I want a .308 "sniper rifle", ya, why?, I don't know.  I already have several 700's that will shoot under 1MOA in calibers that make the .308 look antiquated.  That's the mystique.

                                          AND.....more common,less costly than 270...25-06....7-08....260...for the most part....NOT in the same league with the 300mags.....

This is really a funny post, simply because the 30-30 has killed, and still kills more game than the other most popular calibers combined. And no I don't own one.

Don't get Arock involved in this discussion. He'll try to provoke you with childish insults and then he'll use his moderator status to get the last word in by locking the thread. Soooooo classy!! Especially from a 52-year-old so-called adult.

In sniper school we trained out to 1000 meters with our .308 M21's. Yes, thats right 1000 meters at a  steel 30 inch silhouette.And this was with a 3to9 ART scope.The scope was only cammed for 900 meters but the instructers wanted to teach us holdover.If the wind was down we hit the target at that range about 50% of the time.

Call "Boots" Obermeyer up and ask him....check out Palma matches...(click on supplied url)
.308 is still a great military caliber for some military application..and easy on the wallet
arizona.rifleshooting.com/palma.html

Just as JD showed others in the HaHa other post....show me the money ,is the name of the game...you can't go wrong with a 308 , 30-06over a 270  or a 300mag  over a 7mm... Give me the 30's every time no mater the game or the size.....



Semper-fi

This is really a funny post, simply because the 30-30 has killed, and still kills more game than the other most popular calibers combined.

Yes, that is true.  I am, and always will be, a huge lever/30-30 fan.  But I did not create this thread to debate game kill totals.


BigMac & guns:  I do note the short action attributes of the 308 Winchester.  I have never been in a hunting situation *yet* in which a short action was a huge plus.  I shoot  30-06, and don't mind a "long"-action.

Does anyone have a link to a good ballistics page/engine?

All I got to say is have fun lugging that heavy s.o.b. around. But I guess compromise is in every peice you buy anyway.

PEACE!

Quoted: BigMac & guns:  I do note the short action attributes of the 308 Winchester.  I have never been in a hunting situation *yet* in which a short action was a huge plus.  I shoot  30-06, and don't mind a "long"-action. Does anyone have a link to a good ballistics page/engine?

I don't mind a long action either. I do prefer my .270 over 06.

I just broke out one of my loading manuals.

I will compare as simailar a load as possible between the .308 and 06.

.30-06 Sprinfield
Max load with varget  53gr
150gr btfmj
rated at muzzle @2781


.308 Winchester
Max load with varget  47gr*
150gr btfmj
rated at the muzzle @2856

If you were to use the highest muzzle volocity loads with disimalar powders yields similar results in volocity.

.30-06 2847fps
.308  2919 fps

results may very

Quoted: This is really a funny post, simply because the 30-30 has killed, and still kills more game than the other most popular calibers combined. And no I don't own one.

                                          Not true...and 30-30 has no place in comparing itself with 308........you might as well say that 38special is like a 357 magnum

Quoted: I just broke out one of my loading manuals. I will compare as simailar a load as possible between the .308 and 06. .30-06 Sprinfield Max load with varget  53gr 150gr btfmj rated at muzzle @2781 .308 Winchester Max load with varget  47gr* 150gr btfmj rated at the muzzle @2856 If you were to use the highest muzzle volocity loads with disimalar powders yields similar results in volocity. .30-06 2847fps .308  2919 fps results may very

                                            Not enough difference to matter, in the hands of the right shooter.......the cartridge of choice by the u-s military, was the 30-06........it served to produce the effective results at the time(turn of the century)...the main and probably ONLY reason that the garand rifle was mass produced in this caliber, was that the government had HUGE stockpiles of it waiting to be used(0-3 springfield)..the garand and peterson prototypes were originally built in 27(7mm) cal and were tested as such.....part of the reason that the 30-06 was (is) such a popular round is that there was so much military surplus available in the post war days, that the gun mfg`s chambered so to boost sales......not wrong, because it IS a excellent all around 30 cal. round.....the 308, is what the gov (and nato in retrospect) wanted, to meet the performance of 30-06 in a shorter pkg to be used in modern (at the time) autoloading weapons.....thus the birth/adoption of 308 cartridge.....to argue the betterment of either, is futile...since BOTH are proven, and the differences minute!

I've always thought the .30-06 was superior to .308 ballistically, but couldn't reconcile the HUGE following long range shooters had with .308.  These articles about .30-06 vs .308 changed my perspective somewhat.  Check 'em out:

www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AccuracyFacts.htm

www.snipercountry.com/higrnd05.htm

Does anyone have a link to a good ballistics page/engine?

Here is one I know of, don't know much about it:

http://www.modernballistics.com/

And in response to XM21's experience at Sniper School, let me tell you that when I attended in 1989 (Ft Sherman, Panama with instructors deployed down from Benning) we shot the "M14" with iron sights (scope off) at 1000 meters at the "Iron Maiden".  She was a 10 foot tall, 5 foot wide metal silhouette.  And if you didnt hit her, you didnt graduate.  Knowone had a real problem hitting her, albeit with several tries.  That 7.62 NATO / 308 will fly.

The 0-6 has advantage over 308, in that it has been around so long....there has been a lot of experimenting ,wildcats  and somewhat more range of bullet weights...mostly due to the longer case, which alows more powder and to some degree, a little more room for case mod...again..the differences are slight....

Quoted: This is really a funny post, simply because the 30-30 has killed, and still kills more game than the other most popular calibers combined. And no I don't own one.

If you're talking about big game (i.e., not rabbits and ducks) in North America, then you're probably right.

Worldwide, though, I'd guess that the poachers in Africa and Asia kill a lot of game with 7.62x39mm rifles.

7.62mm NATO Ball (only weenies shoot .308 -- let's see what that starts .  Was designed to DUPLICATE .30 M2 Ball from the M1 Rifle.  That was the design criteria.  It does this in military loadings easily as powder technology from 1903 to the late 1940s had progressed enough that the large .30 case wasn't needed.

In US Military loadings (Ball and Match) 7.62mm NATO M80 Ball from the M14 is the same bullet as .30 M2 Ball from the M1 sent down range at the same velocity.  (Trivial differences notwithstanding.)  Heck, the sights on the M14 and M1 are the same sights with different range wheels for meters and yards.

What this means for sporting users is the .30 case has a LOT more room in it for powder, another 1/2 inch in length.

In military loading, though, there's no performance difference and only a minor weight difference.  Basic load was 100 rounds for the M14 (4 each 20 round magazines) and 96 rounds (12 each 8 round clips) for the M1.

-- chuck