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Posted: 11/24/2001 4:24:36 AM EDT
Other that .50s are there any cals that are up to thwe task?

There are two weapons I'm looking at right now,45-70 and 30-06.

What do you say,will these do the trick/
Link Posted: 11/24/2001 4:53:33 AM EDT
.300Win Mag

I planned to do some long range shooting, talked to those who did it and got the 300.

I haven't tried it yet at those ranges yet but plan to. One of the guys I talked to was using a Remington 40X in .300Win Mag out in the desert here, near Barstow, at ranges up to 1800 yards. He had some nice pictures of his shoots.

I know it was on the paper but those targets [I need to ask him where he got them] were rather large.

7mm Rem Mag may work as well.

One suggestion, look up the Camp Perry matches and see what Michelle Gallagher [I think] and/or her daughter use. I believe they shoot in a lot of long range matches.
Link Posted: 11/24/2001 5:10:46 AM EDT
.338 Lapua Magnum
.407 Chey Tac
Link Posted: 11/24/2001 5:37:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/24/2001 5:30:03 AM EDT by Arock]
Tuukka presents excellent choices.

Of yours, the .30-06 will get there.

I don't think 45-70 will be supersonic that far but I'll have to run the ballistic calculator to get an idea and I'm getting ready to leave for the Dallas gun show.

But you've already got a .50BMG yes?

6.5/6mm-.284 is very accurate over 1000 yd.

My AR15 gets to 1200 yds with 80gr SMK's over 26.5gr of N550.
Link Posted: 11/24/2001 12:10:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Arock:
Tuukka presents excellent choices.

Of yours, the .30-06 will get there.

I don't think 45-70 will be supersonic that far but I'll have to run the ballistic calculator to get an idea and I'm getting ready to leave for the Dallas gun show.

But you've already got a .50BMG yes?

6.5/6mm-.284 is very accurate over 1000 yd.

My AR15 gets to 1200 yds with 80gr SMK's over 26.5gr of N550.



No dude no 50cal I had one but got rid of it befor I could even shot it once.
There is NO place to shot anything here over 100 yards and if I go the ranges we have here with a 50cal the old farts would kill over

The thing is I may make the big mave out west soon and if I do I will be able to shot long rang with out 500K damn trees in the way.

The gun I want if for hunting only,I have my Mossberg foe anything from 100 to .100 yards but no frig'n clue whta to do any passed that.

Now,there is a 80gr round in .223?
I did not know that!
How dose it hold up with something like the .300 win mag?
Link Posted: 11/24/2001 12:51:22 PM EDT
For over 1000 yds, the 30/06 is questionable at best. the 6/6.5/284 work out to 1000 but get blown around by the wind.

If it were up to me, .30 cal minimum. HEAVY bullet (190 minimum). Highest safe velocity. Yes, bullet weight an BC is far more important than velocity.

Nancy (Mother) Michelle and Sherry know more than a little about long range shooting, but I think Mid sets up the rifles for them.

Not only ar there 80 grain bullets (Sierra is the most common and you'll need a 1/8 twist to stabilize) but Jimmy Knox makes a 90 gr VLD (1:6.5 to stabilize). Reports are that they work out to 1000, but probably are not as good as larger calibers with heavier bullets.

HTH.....SRM
Link Posted: 11/24/2001 1:15:04 PM EDT
308 win.

Ropes
Link Posted: 11/24/2001 1:32:57 PM EDT
I can recommend .303 British, 8mm Lebel, heavy-bulleted .30/06, but not 7.62 x 39mm.

SKS ammo took about 6 seconds to lazily float out to 1,200 yards.
Link Posted: 11/24/2001 2:01:07 PM EDT
The 45-70 won't cut it no way no how. (unless you have howitzer experience)

If by some miracle you got a 350gr bullet to leave the muzzle at 2500fps it would be down to 988 fps at 500yds and have dropped 130.5" from a 100yd zero.

If by an even bigger miracle you got a 500gr bullet to leave the muzzle at 2100fps it would be down to 1089fps at 500yds and have dropped 136.9" from a 100yd zero

Compare that to a 178gr 30-06 2700fps at the muzzle 1743fps at 600yds with 93.3" of drop from the 100yd zero. Still going 1269fps at 1000yds and 373" of drop from the 100yd zero.

1000 yds is doable with the 308 and 30-06 but you're pushing them to their limits at that range.

Punching paper at long range is a whole different game than trying to bring down a critter. .223 at 1000yds isn't going to be lethal to anything much tougher than a piece of paper.
Link Posted: 11/24/2001 2:13:23 PM EDT
How about a nice handloaded .270 Weatherby Mag?? Say in the 180grn load?
Link Posted: 11/24/2001 2:25:19 PM EDT
a 45-70 will shoot 1000yds I saw a picture in a magazine of a steel bison taller than a man but they were shooting at and hitting it so it will go that far but am not sure how much energy it would have left a heavy slow moving bullet will penetrate very well
Link Posted: 11/24/2001 2:56:50 PM EDT
Another vote for the 300 win mag. There are better choices but not many, plus you can get 300 wim mag ammo at most gun/sporting goods stores. Another thing is brass and .30 caliber bullets are easy to find and there is a lot of load data for the 300. You are going to have to break a lot of clean shots to get any good groups at 1000 yards. Good luck.
Link Posted: 11/24/2001 3:58:50 PM EDT
.300 WIN MAG

.300 REM ULTRA MAG

.338 LAPUA

Believe it or not , I think a .308
will do better than the .30-06 at that range

I don't think a .45-70 will but what about
a .450 Marlin?? probably still to heavy?!?

Link Posted: 11/24/2001 5:04:18 PM EDT
The point several made about shooting at 1k yds versus doing damage at the same distance is valid. But noone in their right mind would take a shot at game at those distances.

I however know a few of those "out of their mind" folks who hunt prairie dogs at 1k yds and beyond. Saw two of them at the Dallas gunshow today. One of the guys is pushing 60 and this spring HE took dogs at 1048 and 1031 yds with his 6mm-.284.

I'm trying to "poorboy" him with my varmint AR but he's pretty d@mn good. Next spring will tell.
Link Posted: 11/24/2001 5:45:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR-JR:
How about a nice handloaded .270 Weatherby Mag?? Say in the 180grn load?



Biggest problem with a .277 is finding "match" quality bullets. Accurate long range shooting requires handloading. It is the only way to assure the maximum quality.

JMHO....SRM
Link Posted: 11/24/2001 6:19:56 PM EDT
7mm Remington mag will easily and accurately do the job.
Link Posted: 11/24/2001 7:13:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 10X:
a 45-70 will shoot 1000yds I saw a picture in a magazine of a steel bison taller than a man but they were shooting at and hitting it so it will go that far but am not sure how much energy it would have left a heavy slow moving bullet will penetrate very well



Someone had a link in the GD section that had the Army Ordnance report from when the .45-70 was the standard issue round. IIRC, they were shooting at absolute max range of the cartridge/rifle combination, about 2800yds(I think that is the right range, but I KNOW it was a hell of a lot further then 1000yds!), somthing along the lines of 45-50 degrees of muzzle elevation from horizontal. The target was a huge 20ft x 20ft frame consisting of 4in thick pine boards set on a sandy beach. All rounds recovered had completely penetrated the 4in thick boards and then penetrated 8 to 12 inches into the wet sand beneath.

In short, those heavy slow moving projectiles penetrated very, very well. Had they fallen on a human lying prone on the beach, they would have left an exit wound regardless of where they entered.

BTW, my favorite weapon to use at ranges exceeding 1000yds is a call to the FDC or to the pilot providing CAS.

Semper Fi
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 6:24:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By big_bore:
Other that .50s are there any cals that are up to thwe task?

There are two weapons I'm looking at right now,45-70 and 30-06.

What do you say,will these do the trick/




Get out of the dark ages, Dude!

Read up on the current state of the 1000 yd art at SniperCountry.com. You'll have to beg permission to post on their board since they don't let just anybody post stupid gun questions.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 8:59:44 AM EDT
As previously mentioned I believe the real qeustion isn't so much as to which of these rounds will get there. More importantly is what you want to do with it at this range. I've seen most of the guns that have been mentioned reach out to 1000 yards with a certain level of predictably. I've seen .50 BMG poke holes in 1/2" plate steel at this range. Heck I've even seen a 1911 throw a 230 grain ball to an 800 yard target. The trajectory looked like the first half of the McDonalds Arches but it hit the steel all the same. As for the 45-70 there are many civil war accounts of a confirmed kill at 1 mile. I believe that good choices for the average guy would be a .338 Laupua, 300 Win Mag and 300 Weatherby Mag. These cartridges will sustain sufficient energy to accomplish most desired tasks. The military has many good marksman that do it with .308 all day long. Just my opinion.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 11:54:42 AM EDT
Well I gess it come down to this,witch of these rounds would be a starter cal.
This is a VERY new thing for me and I do know that there are alot of rounds(maybe ever most rounds)that would make out well over 1K but what dose it take on the part of the shoter to get it done?

I was thinking 45-70 cuz it's BIG and for a guy who most loved gun is a 12ga thats a good thing,Ars are just like shooting spit balls down rang(I know it's not really,but it feels that way)I liked the 30-06 due to being told that it was good at well over 1,000 yards.

I see alot of you talking about .338,are you able to buy ammo for that thing with out a major search? and I see alot of .300 win mag too,as fast as it is will that make it more tuff on me to start?
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 12:32:41 PM EDT
If you're shooting 1000 yds, Dude, you could put a little effort into reloading the cases. Also, you find other dudes who you'd share load data with.

.338 Lapua Mag
Cheyenne Tactical 408
6.5x5.5 Swede
.300 Win Mag
.50 BMG
.30-378 WBY
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 7:14:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2001 8:28:35 PM EDT by cnatra]

Originally Posted By cnatra:
.300 WIN MAG

.300 REM ULTRA MAG

.338 LAPUA



As much as I admire the .338 Lapua I think the brass is rare & pricey.

The .300 WinMag is a venerable cartridge with lots of available factory loads & brass.

BUT I think the new .300 Rem Ultra Mag is
very promising.

A Remington PSS can be had in .300 RemUltra
for $700-$800 & the brass will be more available & cheaper than Lapua brass.

The Remington headspaces on the shoulder too not the belt around the rim like the WinMag.

Headspacing on the shoulder should make for a more accurate cartridge.

I would think for utmost accuracy at 1000yrds
handloading is a must, no??

You might want to start with a 26" Remington PSS or Savage 10FP in .308 to start though.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 7:21:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR-JR:
How about a nice handloaded .270 Weatherby Mag?? Say in the 180grn load?



a .257 Weatherby is FAST & flat shooting!
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 9:14:31 PM EDT
get one of these http://www.tromix.com/Welcome.htm
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 11:30:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2001 11:34:31 AM EDT by shooterX308]

Originally Posted By big_bore:
Other that .50s are there any cals that are up to thwe task?

There are two weapons I'm looking at right now,45-70 and 30-06.

What do you say,will these do the trick/



Sure. I do it all the time with a 300 Win Mag loaded with 240 grain Sierra MatchKings. At 2800 fps, I get the ballistics of factory 338 Lapua without the thump. Yeah, baby. WinMag brass is plentiful and cheap, and the cartridge is a proven performer. If you don't reload, you can get excellent match ammo from Federal for 300 WinMag.

Forget the .06; it's no better than a .308 which is pretty lame beyond 800 yards. Don't even think about the 45-70. As for the 300 RemUltraExpensiveMag, I'd stay away until cheaper components are available, despite the hyper velocity hype. Remember: extra muzzle velocity does not necessarily mean extra accuracy. Beyond 600 yards accuracy is an entirely new game, and beyond 1000 yards, it is truly a rarified atmosphere of practice. Stick with a WinMag.

shooter
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 11:35:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cnatra:

Believe it or not , I think a .308
will do better than the .30-06 at that range



BUZZZZZ! Back to the temple, grasshopper.


I don't think a .45-70 will but what about a .450 Marlin?? probably still to heavy?!?




Oh, my, my, my....

Link Posted: 11/26/2001 11:47:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2001 11:40:46 AM EDT by shooterX308]

Originally Posted By cnatra:


The Remington headspaces on the shoulder too not the belt around the rim like the WinMag.




This myth still persists, but the fact of the matter is that unless the chamber is specifically cut to allow the belt to crush against the chamber when the bolt is closed, belted cartridges likely headspace on the shoulder. Mine do. While I agree the belt is totally useless, it's not the big bugaboo a lot of shooters make it out to be, and the fact of the matter is that belt cartridges, specifically those in the 300 Win/300Wby size dominate 1000 yard benchrest. Don't take my word: try www.nc1000ydshooters.com

shooter
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 11:48:33 AM EDT
The best idea is to drive 999 yds closer & shoot it point blank with whatever ya got.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 12:59:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2001 12:56:23 PM EDT by cnatra]

Originally Posted By shooterX308:

Originally Posted By cnatra:

Believe it or not , I think a .308
will do better than the .30-06 at that range



BUZZZZZ! Back to the temple, grasshopper.



Seriously I just read an article on this recently that discussed the evolution of High Power rifle shooting from the .30-06 Garands to the .308 M1A's & a convincing case was made that out to 1000yrds the .308 was consistently printing smaller groups than the .30-06.
I'll find it & post it.



I don't think a .45-70 will but what about a .450 Marlin?? probably still to heavy?!?


Oh, my, my, my....



Now I didn't start this idea, I just commented on it!
Trust me, I was more than skeptical.

Look at the 3 primary choices I suggested.

.338 Lapua
.300 WinMag
.300 RemUltraMag

I'm not that dense!

Link Posted: 11/26/2001 1:10:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2001 1:18:59 PM EDT by cnatra]
shootrX308,

So what kind of rifle do you shoot?

Is it a custom job or basicly a factory gun?

I've been kicking around getting a

low mileage Winchester Laredo in .300 WinMag
or a
new Remington PSS .300WinMag or .300RemUltra

THX
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 2:19:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By shooterX308:

Originally Posted By cnatra:
Believe it or not , I think a .308
will do better than the .30-06 at that range


BUZZZZZ! Back to the temple, grasshopper.



I knew I didn't imagine this:
www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AccuracyFacts.htm
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 2:31:04 PM EDT
Accuracy Facts
.308 Winchester versus .30-06 Springfield

By Bart Bobbitt*

------------------------------------------------
All that aside, lets go back to when the .30-06 and .308 were the only cartridges allowed in NRA match rifle matches. Both cartridges were used in barrels of equal quality as well as the same action and stocks by several top shooters in the USA. Both cartridges were used in matches at ranges from 100 through 1000 yards. Many thousands of rounds were fired in both types. Bullets from 168 through 200 grains were used with several powder, case and primer combinations.

In comparing accuracy between the .308 and .30-06, folks who used each quickly agreed on one thing: .308s were two to three times more accurate than the .30-06. In the early 1960s, it was also observed that competitors with lower classifications using .308s were getting higher scores than higher classified folks using .30-06s; at all ranges. By the middle to late 1960s, all the top highpower shooters and virtually all the rest had switched to the .308. The Highpower Committee had received so many complaints of ties not being able to be broke between shooters using the .308 and shooting all their shots in the tie-breaking V-ring, something had to be done to resolve this issue. In 1966, the NRA cut in half the target scoring ring dimensions.

At the peak of the .30-06's use as a competition cartridge, the most accurate rifles using it would shoot groups at 200 yards of about 2 inches, at 300 of about 3 inches. The 600-yard groups were 6 to 7 inches and at 1000 yards about 16 inches. As the high-scoring ring in targets was 3 inches at 200 and 300 yards, 12 inches at 600 and 20 inches at 1000, the top scores fired would have 90+ percent of the shots inside this V-ring.

Along came the 7.62mm NATO and its commercial version; the .308 Winchester. In the best rifles, 200 yard groups were about 3/4ths inch, at 300 about 1-1/2 inch. At 600 yards, groups were about 2-1/2 inch and at 1000 about 7 to 8 inches. It was not very long before the .30-06 round no longer won matches nor set any records; all it's records were broken by the .308 by a considerable margin. Some accuracy tests at 600 yards with the .308 produced test groups in the 1 to 2 inch range. These were 20 to 40 shot groups. No .30-06 has ever come close to shooting that well.

At 1000 yards, where both the .30-06 and .308 were allowed in Palma matches, the .308 was the clear-cut most accurate of the two. If top shooters felt the .30-06 was a more accurate round, they would have used it - they didn't. In fact by the early 1970s, the scoring ring dimensions on the 800 - 1000 yard target were also cut in about half due to the accuracy of both the .308 Win. over the .30-06 and the .30-.338 over the .300 H&H when used in long range matches.

Most top highpower shooters feel the main reason the .308 is much more accurate than the .30-06 is its shorter, fatter case promotes more uniform and gentle push on the bullet due to a higher loading density (less air space) and a more easily uniformly ignitable powder charge.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 2:31:59 PM EDT
Military arsenals who produced match and service ammo in both 7.62mm and 30 caliber have fired thousands of test rounds/groups with both. They also found out that with both ammo types, the smallest groups were with the 7.62 by about 50 to 60 percent. M1 rifles in 7.62 shot about twice as small of groups as .30 M1s at all ranges. When the M14 was first used, there were some .30-06 M1 rifles that would shoot more accurately. It took the service teams several years to perfect the methods of making M14s shoot well, but when they did, they shot as good as M1s in 7.62.

There will always be folks who claim the .30-06 is a more accurate cartridge. All I have to say to them is to properly test .308 vs. .30-06 and find out. Theory is nice to think about; facts determine the truth.
------------------------------------------------
* Note
Mr. Bobbitt did not submit this article to Sniper Country, but rather to the rec.guns newsgroup on February 7, 1997. He has authored many postings to rec.guns, and is highly qualified to comment on a variety of shooting-related topics. Among his many distinctions within the shooting community, he once fired a 20-shot, 3.325" group at 800 yards! (Refer to the advertisement for Krieger Barrels in the May, 1997, issue of Precision Shooting magazine.) Mr. Bobbitt's other postings to rec.guns can be found by doing an author's profile on his name via the Deja News service. This rec.guns posting was acquired via Deja News (see the Deja News policy on materials posted to newsgroups).
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 2:42:38 PM EDT
Back to the topic, I believe this was a match even, not some wannabe sniper poseur thread...The AR is still growing in long range shooting where most .30's are static. Why? One shot at 1000 is one thing. A full match is another and 80 rounds of .308 can be quite tiring to any shooter.

The spikey VLD's used in long range AR15 shooting have the ability to reach to 1000, even in service rifle dress (20" barrel). Wind drift and drop are all so close it is just a matter of the shooter's skill to differentiate.

And to those thinking their .308" bullets are so much "better"...the little VLD slugs are still moving faster at 1000 than your Sierra 190's.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 2:56:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By big_bore:
Other that .50s are there any cals that are up to thwe task?

There are two weapons I'm looking at right now,45-70 and 30-06.

What do you say,will these do the trick/



This was the original post...
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 2:57:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By big_bore:
No dude no 50cal I had one but got rid of it befor I could even shot it once.
There is NO place to shot anything here over 100 yards and if I go the ranges we have here with a 50cal the old farts would kill over

The thing is I may make the big mave out west soon and if I do I will be able to shot long rang with out 500K damn trees in the way.

The gun I want if for hunting only,I have my Mossberg foe anything from 100 to .100 yards but no frig'n clue whta to do any passed that.

Now,there is a 80gr round in .223?
I did not know that!
How dose it hold up with something like the .300 win mag?



and this...
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 2:59:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2001 2:52:28 PM EDT by cnatra]

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Back to the topic, I believe this was a match even, not some wannabe sniper poseur thread...The AR is still growing in long range shooting where most .30's are static. Why? One shot at 1000 is one thing. A full match is another and 80 rounds of .308 can be quite tiring to any shooter.

The spikey VLD's used in long range AR15 shooting have the ability to reach to 1000, even in service rifle dress (20" barrel). Wind drift and drop are all so close it is just a matter of the shooter's skill to differentiate.

And to those thinking their .308" bullets are so much "better"...the little VLD slugs are still moving faster at 1000 than your Sierra 190's.



No doubt the AR is (has?) taking over in
High Power competition BUT
what about Benchrest Shooters &
are Palma matches still held??
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 3:09:56 PM EDT
NRA states 7.62 x 51 mm is the only rifle chamber to be used in Palma. There are rogue .223 Palma matches and they can score right up there with the big boys. Give them a match rifle and a good 90 grain (no typo, it is reality) JLK load, and the 1000 yarders will be going to it in droves. The winds of change are blowing and smaller is more efficient.

Drop is due to time of flight. Time of flight is due to initial velocity and BC. Drift is due to cross sectional area, mass and time of flight with a cross wind. No where does caliber enter directly.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 3:42:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Drop is due to time of flight. Time of flight is due to initial velocity and BC. Drift is due to cross sectional area, mass and time of flight with a cross wind. No where does caliber enter directly.



Damn! Where can I read up on this stuff??

Anyone still shoot 6mm PPC?
Isn't there a 6mm Remington too?

How would a .22-250 or .220 swift do?
What about a .257 Weatherby?

I'm intrigued now
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 4:05:57 PM EDT
Precision shooting has some articles on interesting stuff like this. Try the .224 Middlestead. A .243 Winchester necked down to .224. With the correct rifiling twist allowing bullets with a good BC, all that is left is accuracy. Modern barrel equipment enables this scale down in bore diameter without the once-necessary scale-down in accuracy.

Can you imaging a supersonic .224" bullet fired from 1500 yards away? Out of the tube, it was going over 3500 FPS. Try that with your 190 grain 30's With a 90 JLK, it should do at least 3300. Try that velocity with 240 Matchkings in you 300 Ultra Magnums. All of this using the same quantity of powder as your .308. Bullet cost is a little higher with JLK's but I've never seen .30 cal match pills for under $120/thousand.
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