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Posted: 11/16/2001 6:34:54 PM EDT
I always hear guys talkin about their pre ban rifles and configs and it started me thinkin.

How does one obtain a pre ban rifle? can you buy one just like you buy a post ban or is there special licensing or info needed? can you build your own pre ban? (doubting that) if so where do i find a pre ban lower? can a pre ban upper half be put on a post ban lower?

this is making me dizzy. and im sure i once knew the answers to all of these questions but ive forgot. id really like to get my hands on a semi-auto pre ban m4 type c.a.r. carbine if possible.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 6:43:35 PM EDT
A pre-ban rifle was made before 9/94, it cannot just be a lower reciever, it has to have been assembled as a complete rifle before 9/94. These rifles can have bayonet lug, flash suppressor and colapsable stock, all the evil features you want. Post ban rifles can only have two evil features, on the post ban AR the two evil features are a pistol grip and a removeable magazine, a post ban with any thing more is illegal. You cannot but a preban configuration upper on a post ban lower or you are bad. Very, very bad and the government will make you dissapear for quite a while.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 6:46:55 PM EDT
There is no paperwork for preban vs. postban. Just about any preban or postban upper will fit on a preban lower, unless it is a large hole Colt lower rec. (Colt is the only one whose done this).

As far as where to get a preban lower (which can be cheaper sometimes than buying a whole gun, but no always), check out the for sale boards here as well as on Subguns.com. Also gunshows sometimes. But generally go with cash in hand. Your best bet is somebody walking it around instead of at a booth.

The first thing you need to do is download a copy of preban status serial #'s. I'm sure somebody here can post you a link to that. That will get you started, and at least make sure you don't buy a postban lower rec. for the price of a preban rec.


Anyway, make sure you do your research when getting a preban. And good luck!
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 7:24:01 PM EDT
As seamusmcoi said, download & print out a copy of this to take with you when shopping for a preban. Unfortunately there are dishonest folks out there trying to sell postban lowers with preban uppers on them as complete preban guns. I have seen a few of these assholes myself at gunshows & they could'nt care less about the consequences of you owning an illegal AR15.

Happy hunting!!

old.ar15.com/legal/serialNumberList.asp

ColtShorty

GOA KABA COA JPFO SAF NRA

"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted
and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do
these things to other people and I require
the same from them."

Link Posted: 11/16/2001 7:41:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HighCaliber:
A pre-ban rifle was made before 9/94, it cannot just be a lower reciever, it has to have been assembled as a complete rifle before 9/94. These rifles can have bayonet lug, flash suppressor and colapsable stock, all the evil features you want. Post ban rifles can only have two evil features, on the post ban AR the two evil features are a pistol grip and a removeable magazine, a post ban with any thing more is illegal. You cannot but a preban configuration upper on a post ban lower or you are bad. Very, very bad and the government will make you dissapear for quite a while.

Pre Ban is before 1989 with all the evil features. The transition period of going into post ban era was 1989 to Sept. 1994 during this time bayo lugs were cut off but still came with flash suppressors. After Sept. 1994 rifles had neither.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 8:20:53 PM EDT
As to how you find one, you just need to keep a look out for them. I wasn't looking for one when I found it. I was doing my weekly browse at a local shop when I saw an excellent condition bushmaster CAR-15 with 5" flash supressor. It had a whomping price tag of 995.
I paid for it with the condition that I had to verify if it was pre-ban. I called bushmaster an they said it was. Needless to say I love this Rifle which now sports an M4 upper.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 10:00:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2001 9:53:48 PM EDT by Gun Guru]

Originally Posted By Blazinglead:



Pre Ban is before 1989 with all the evil features. The transition period of going into post ban era was 1989 to Sept. 1994 during this time bayo lugs were cut off but still came with flash suppressors. After Sept. 1994 rifles had neither.



The 89 ban is a IMPORT BAN, mainly to get the AK clones and other evil looking imports from entering the country ie. the HK 94 is postban compliant with the crime bill but not with '89 import ban.


from High Caliber



A pre-ban rifle was made before 9/94, it cannot just be a lower reciever, it has to have been assembled as a complete rifle before 9/94.

Yes thats true, but there are hundreds of prebie lowers out there from stripped weapons, Pete in New Hampshire always has Colt receiver lowers and other cool stuff to boot {love that Rem Rand}.
GG
Link Posted: 11/17/2001 6:16:05 AM EDT
Domestically produced rifles only fall under the 1994 statutes. 1989 concerns importing of "non sporting" firearms and doesn't apply here.

Colt's diddled with their rifles a lot, but until 1994 none was required by federal law.

-- Chuck
Link Posted: 11/17/2001 6:28:51 AM EDT
Easiest suggestion is stick with post ban. They can be recognized by the reasonable price. They don't shoot any different, and you can even get that M-4 look with a non collapsible stock. Never really felt the need for a bayo lug at the range, and couldn't figure out what I was wanting to hide flash from anyhow.
Link Posted: 11/17/2001 7:07:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/17/2001 7:19:14 AM EDT by PitViper]
Yeah, the Collapsible stock is just a piece of fluff (Unless of course, you plan on using the gun in Close quarters, or have kids or petite ladies that like to shoot but are just too small for the "fakey" collpsibles or the A2) and who really notices the Basketball-sized ball of fire that comes out of the muzzle of a 16" AR? (Especially if shooting at night or at dusk)
Agree on the bayo lug...pretty useless, but hey, if it pisses just ONE anti-gunner liberal pukebag off, it's worth ten times it's weight in gold.
Best advice is to buy what you can afford, and if you decide that PreBan features are worth the extra cost go for it. Be patient if you decide on a preban, because you will find a reasonbly priced one if you're willing to look a bit. Most importantly, enjoy whatever you get!
Link Posted: 11/17/2001 9:25:39 AM EDT
thanks guys. I was looking back through my AR15 folder in my gun folder on my computer and found some old docs from this web site. i have a description of pre ban and post ban and a serial number guide.

As for why im wanting one? well i was watching a ar15 video one time and a guy had a pre ban m4 style AR with the telescopic stock and i fell in love with the way it was so compact. i had considered the bushy post ban m4 type but its just not the same.

I guess i really have no need for the flash suppressor or the bayo lug but just having the feeling that i can put stuff on my gun that a lot of others can't is a very GOOD feeling
Link Posted: 11/17/2001 1:48:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gun Guru:

Yes thats true, but there are hundreds of prebie lowers out there from stripped weapons, Pete in New Hampshire always has Colt receiver lowers and other cool stuff to boot {love that Rem Rand}.
GG



Can you please post contact info for Pete
Link Posted: 11/17/2001 2:04:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/17/2001 2:21:09 PM EDT
I always wondered one thing. The reason I see stated that a Pre-Ban receiver isn't Pre-Ban is because it didn't have 2 evil features. but, complete lowers could come with 2 features (Collapsible Stock and Pistol Grip). So would these be pre-bans ? It seems like they would have been.

Also, as I underdtand it the Detachable Magazine is not one of the evil features. Rather, it is a precursor to being a SAW at all. For example, a non-detachable gun should be able to have anything you want. Hmm, if I weld a 40 Rounder in the Magazine well, would it be considered non-detachable. Or better yet just alter it so that the magazine can't be removed /o disassembling the rifle or at least opening it up.

As for the other questions, no extra paperwork, yes you can build one as long as you use a Lower that was either assembled or was a complete kit prior to 9/94. No, you cannot legally assemble a Pre-Ban upper on a Post-Ban lower unless you remove the evil features like I did. I used a hacksaw to remove the Bayonet Lug, and Threads/Flash Suppressor at once.

Also, if you like the looks of a Threaded Barrel, evn though some will say otherwise. the 94 Law says specifically, barrel threaded to accept a Flash Suppressor. If you were to thread a barrel with a thread esign that is incapable of taking a Flash Supressor you should be OK. Also, Flash Hiders and Brakes are still legal. There is a difference between a Flash Hider and Flash Suppressor, but the Hider is harder to find. If you thread the barrel, you might want to try rethreading some Brakes so the can be screwed on. I have heard removing the ears from a Bayo. Lug is sufficient and except for a close inspection is very hard to tell the difference.
Link Posted: 11/17/2001 6:20:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By slt223:

Originally Posted By Gun Guru:

Yes thats true, but there are hundreds of prebie lowers out there from stripped weapons, Pete in New Hampshire always has Colt receiver lowers and other cool stuff to boot {love that Rem Rand}.
GG



Can you please post contact info for Pete



Its legaltransfers@worldnet.att.net
GG
Link Posted: 11/17/2001 7:06:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cc48510:
I always wondered one thing. The reason I see stated that a Pre-Ban receiver isn't Pre-Ban is because it didn't have 2 evil features. but, complete lowers could come with 2 features (Collapsible Stock and Pistol Grip). So would these be pre-bans ? It seems like they would have been.

Also, as I underdtand it the Detachable Magazine is not one of the evil features.



There are five evil features that ARs have:
1. Pistol Grip
2. Ability to accept a detachable magazine outside of the pistol grip.
3. Flash Suppressor
4. Collapsible Stock
5. Bayonet lug

Post ban ARs can only have two of the "Evil Features".
Link Posted: 11/17/2001 7:49:12 PM EDT
#2 is an Assault Pistol evil feature, not an Assault Rifle evil feature.

Evil Features:

1) Pistol Grip
2) Bayonet Lug
3) Threaded Barrel capable Of Accepting A Flash Suppressor
4) Flash Suppressor
5) Collapsing/Folding Stock
6) Grenade Launcher
Link Posted: 11/17/2001 8:08:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/17/2001 8:33:38 PM EDT by cc48510]
US Code Title 18, Section 922(v):

(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to manufacture, transfer, or possess a semiautomatic assault weapon.

(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to the possession or transfer of any semiautomatic assault weapon otherwise lawfully possessed under Federal law on the date of the enactment of this subsection.

(3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to -

            (A) any of the firearms, or replicas or duplicates of the firearms, specified in Appendix A to this section, as such firearms were manufactured on October 1, 1993;

            (B) any firearm that -

                        (i) is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever, or slide action;

                        (ii) has been rendered permanently inoperable; or

                        (iii) is an antique firearm;

            (C) any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than 5 rounds of ammunition; or

            (D) any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than 5 rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine. The fact that a firearm is not listed in Appendix A shall not be construed to mean that paragraph (1) applies to such firearm. No firearm exempted by this subsection may be deleted from Appendix A so long as this subsection is in effect.

(4) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to -

            (A) the manufacture for, transfer to, or possession by the United States or a department or agency of the United States or a State or a department, agency, or political subdivision of a State, or a transfer to or possession by a law enforcement officer employed by such an entity for purposes of law enforcement (whether on or off duty);

            (B) the transfer to a licensee under title I of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 for purposes of establishing and maintaining an on-site physical protection system and security organization required by Federal law, or possession by an employee or contractor of such licensee on-site for such purposes or off-site for purposes of licensee-authorized training or transportation of nuclear materials;

            (C) the possession, by an individual who is retired from service with a law enforcement agency and is not otherwise prohibited from receiving a firearm, of a semiautomatic assault weapon transferred to the individual by the agency upon such retirement; or

            (D) the manufacture, transfer, or possession of a semiautomatic assault weapon by a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Secretary
Link Posted: 11/17/2001 8:31:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/17/2001 8:29:16 PM EDT by cc48510]
US Code Title 18, Section 921(a)(30):

(30) The term ''semiautomatic assault weapon'' means -

            (A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as -

                        (i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models);

                        (ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;

                        (iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);

                        (iv) Colt AR-15;

                        (v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;

                        (vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12;

                        (vii) Steyr AUG;

                        (viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and

                        (ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;
Link Posted: 11/17/2001 8:32:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/17/2001 8:31:08 PM EDT by cc48510]
            (B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of -

                        (i) a folding or telescoping stock;

                        (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

                        (iii) a bayonet mount;

                        (iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and

                        (v) a grenade launcher;
Link Posted: 11/17/2001 8:32:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/17/2001 8:31:54 PM EDT by cc48510]
            (C) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept adetachable magazine and has at least 2 of -

                        (i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;

                        (ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;

                        (iii­) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned;

                        (iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and

                        (v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm; and

            (D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of -

                        (i) a folding or telescoping stock;

                        (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

                        (iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and

                        (iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine
Link Posted: 11/18/2001 3:01:02 AM EDT
Is it lawful then to put a postban upper on a DPMS preban lower? Also, does anyone know how to identify the brand of an upper? Sorry for the newbie questions.

jester
Link Posted: 11/18/2001 11:08:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gun Guru:

Originally Posted By Blazinglead:



Pre Ban is before 1989 with all the evil features. The transition period of going into post ban era was 1989 to Sept. 1994 during this time bayo lugs were cut off but still came with flash suppressors. After Sept. 1994 rifles had neither.



The 89 ban is a IMPORT BAN, mainly to get the AK clones and other evil looking imports from entering the country ie. the HK 94 is postban compliant with the crime bill but not with '89 import ban.


from High Caliber



A pre-ban rifle was made before 9/94, it cannot just be a lower reciever, it has to have been assembled as a complete rifle before 9/94.

Yes thats true, but there are hundreds of prebie lowers out there from stripped weapons, Pete in New Hampshire always has Colt receiver lowers and other cool stuff to boot {love that Rem Rand}.
GG

Yes an import ban but this is the date that the unlimited evil features began dissappearing correct? Preban in my book and also Colts. Post-ban is after 1988. Pre-ban is before 1989.
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