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Posted: 11/16/2001 5:07:16 AM EST
Our team was at the range and a salesman came out to show us his toys.

Well in his box of toys....

Sure wish I had a picture to post, can anyone help?

..Was a FN P90. That was the sweetest shooting little subgun. Deadly accurate, easy to operate, ammo is very light but very effective, but it is a very expensive little thing. $1200 dollars for the base model.

It shot like a dream. Next to no recoil, easy trigger control of the adjustable fire control selector. At full auto, you could keep them all with in the 8 - 10 ring, EASILY! We were very impressed with it. It would be a great addition, it we could afford them.

LEO/SWAT guys:
There are a number of teams here in Texas that are going to them. If your departement has money to spare or your team budget really rocks, call FN and take a look at this little bad boy. You will not be disappointed. It is well worth the cost. Not nearly as deadly as the 5.56 round, has about the same lethal characteristics as 9mm 115 grn +P+. The round goes into ballistic gelatin and makes a large arc while creating the wound channel and the round very typically ends pointing back in the direction it came. Very big wound channel and has next to no over penetration. If interested, email and I will provide info on a shooting I know about with it.

Got really warm fuzzies with it yesterday! I like it!!!!
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 5:10:54 AM EST
Yeah yeah what he said. Very cool looking too and 50 rd mag's.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 5:44:36 AM EST
OK, thats it!!! I am taking the LEO test. The 5.7mm round is very impressive, too bad smucks like me cant own one. I must be a bad person. BTW, could you sneak that thing out so I could play with it? [>(]
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 6:59:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/16/2001 6:54:50 AM EST by Snorkel_Bob]


How much are they going for?
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 7:00:15 AM EST
It should be illegal for LE to possess anything that civilians can't legally possess.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 7:24:34 AM EST
Civilians should be able to own anything that LE can. Armed civilians keep the goverment and LE in check. If you dont believe me go ask some of the Jews in Germany...

Ropes
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 8:23:26 AM EST
What ever happened to cops carrying 38 specials.
I saw a pic of a swat team with an m-60.
WTF does a police dept. need an M-60 for?
Or a P90.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 8:35:54 AM EST
Im not so sure why a SWAT team needs a M-60, its not accurate and serves no purpose for LEO's. Are you sure it was a real SWAT team? Possibly just a set picture for a magazine? But I can totally see a use for the P-90. Entries require a small weapon that has some power behind it, and this sub-gun serves that purpose perfect.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 8:38:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By hg112:
What ever happened to cops carrying 38 specials.
I saw a pic of a swat team with an m-60.
WTF does a police dept. need an M-60 for?
Or a P90.



You are absolutely right.

Following your impeccable logic, why would anyone need an AR15?

Did you ever consider that the police probably have a slightly higher chance of running into a situation where they might need a P90 (or an AR15 or and M60 or even a .38 revolver) than you do?

I don't agree with banning new manufacture of MGs for civilian ownership, but I think that the PDs can make a good case for needing them, in many situations.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 11:07:43 AM EST
Does anyone have a pic or info on that round? I really don't know anything about it and I would like to learn a little. Thanks.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 11:14:45 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 11:18:52 AM EST
The M60 issue was Cali. Sherrif/ATF Raid on Santa Clarita California where a man burned alive in his home and several neighbors homes (some occupied with Children) were hit by stray ATF bullets.

They had an APC with an M60 mounted on it.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 11:23:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/16/2001 11:21:36 AM EST by cc48510]
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 12:27:27 PM EST
I've never understood why those who are there to "protect and serve" need to wear masks. Aren't ski masks for criminals?

. . . oh, and the old "he/she does undercover work and cannot have his/her identity revealed" argument is not persuasive.



Link Posted: 11/16/2001 12:41:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/16/2001 12:43:52 PM EST by kwb377]
Well for one thing, now his picture is plastered all over the world on the internet. Anyone with a grudge (see above posts) finds him out with his family at the mall and clobbers him. Why not then post your personal pic on the internet? And as for LE's needing a P90 (or any other weapon of that nature), did anyone hear about a little known bank robbery a couple of years ago in N. Hollywood? I heard that there were a couple of guy armed with a trunk load of full autos (AK, M16, HK91). But I'm sure nothing like that could have happened. Proably just a couple of innocent, law abiding citizens being harrassed by the police. If only someone could have gotten it on video! Surely the LEO's could have apprehended those guys with .38 specials.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 12:52:01 PM EST
When one has the power to deprive others of their liberty, carry guns (including shotguns and submachine guns) openly in public, and generally order people around when ever they please, then it is reasonable to expect some accountability.

In fact, if one reads the story about that California raid, and about how absolutely F*&%ed up (e.g. botched) it was, one can understand my concerns. I mean, did those guys really need an M60? A F*&%ing M60!! Hell, were you aware that the raiding party initially fired on the wrong house!

I am not anti-cop so much as I am pro citizen.

Hey, at least that USBP guy who snatched that Cuban kid had the balls to show his face. . .

Link Posted: 11/16/2001 1:03:07 PM EST
I can see the need for LEO to have the P-90. In conducting raids of known crack houses and thing, it is a nice compact firearm that will not penetrate. Of course, for the same reasons, I believe this would also be a great weapon in a home defense situation. I.E. civilian use.



Imagine for a moment, if that guy behind the M-60 decided to open up. Now just how many stucco wood framed houses will those full house .308s penetrate?

Honestly, what were they thinking what they brought the pig in to a tightly packed residential neighborhood. Uh sorry ma'am, I was aiming at houses 4 houses in front of yours......
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 1:06:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By kwb377:
Well for one thing, now his picture is plastered all over the world on the internet. Anyone with a grudge (see above posts) finds him out with his family at the mall and clobbers him. Why not then post your personal pic on the internet? And as for LE's needing a P90 (or any other weapon of that nature), did anyone hear about a little known bank robbery a couple of years ago in N. Hollywood? I heard that there were a couple of guy armed with a trunk load of full autos (AK, M16, HK91). But I'm sure nothing like that could have happened. Proably just a couple of innocent, law abiding citizens being harrassed by the police. If only someone could have gotten it on video! Surely the LEO's could have apprehended those guys with .38 specials.



makes sense and to add to your above, just imagine the flack a dept. would catch if they were unprepared and the event happened at a bank in their city/town. possible lawsuit?

however i think a belt-fed machinegun is overkill. the p90 would make an excellent hostage rescue weapon if it can deliver fire accurately to target with great controlability.

Link Posted: 11/16/2001 1:21:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/16/2001 1:21:15 PM EST by GodBlessTexas]

Originally Posted By Matt_S:
I can see the need for LEO to have the P-90. In conducting raids of known crack houses and thing, it is a nice compact firearm that will not penetrate. Of course, for the same reasons, I believe this would also be a great weapon in a home defense situation. I.E. civilian use.



Matt_S, the SS-190 that the P-90 and Five Seven fires is an armor piercing round. It is specifically designed to penetrate walls, body armor, etc. Do you mean overpenetrate? According to FN's own balistics data, the SS-190 round can penetrate 48 layers of Kevlar at 200 meters with supersonic ammunition. The Five seveN pistol will penetrate 47 layers of kevlar at 50 meters, as weill the P90 using subsonic ammo when operated suppressed.

FN's website has complete balistic data on the SS-190 rounds, as well as the guns for those interested.

God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 1:23:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/16/2001 1:32:56 PM EST by njogi]
I would want to bring in the HK PDW verses P90:

PDW v. FN P90 Ammunition
PDW (4.6 x 30) P90 (5.7 x 28)
Proj weight: 24.7 grains 31 grains
Muzz Vel: 2,378 f/sec 2,346 f/sec
Muzzle Engy: 310 f/lb
Armor Penetration 1.6mm Titanium/20 layers Kevlar > 200 m 150 m
Max. Effective Range: > 200 m 200 m

I love the HK.



Link Posted: 11/16/2001 1:24:12 PM EST
I think the M60 is WAY overkill i mean Who in
the heck would they go after?
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 1:33:05 PM EST
njogi, the 5.7x28 ammo goes through more than double the layers of kevlar (48) as the 4.6x30 (20) at 200 meters with 60% less recoil than a 9mm. That's relatively significant.

God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 1:44:05 PM EST
Thanks GodblessTexas;

I guess I am just HK minded person!
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 1:44:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By kwb377:
And as for LE's needing a P90 (or any other weapon of that nature), did anyone hear about a little known bank robbery a couple of years ago in N. Hollywood?



I dont disagree with you on the P90 I just think as a citizen with no record I should be able to buy one also. They should be armed as well as needed but a m60? And along with being armed for the job they should be held to the highest standard.

Remember Ruby Ridge & Waco

Blue Skies, Ropes
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 1:50:42 PM EST
njogi, let me add that the P90 is a shoulder fired weapon and that makes it much more stable and therefore, much more accurate.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 2:24:47 PM EST
OK ya the M-60 is way overkill. What happened to being precise. I woul dof never guessed that a LEO agency would have something of that caliber.

IIRC the 5.7 penetrates body armor but doesnt penetrate flesh that well. Something about tumbling and only penetrating 18 inches I think. I'm looking for the magazine right now. Ill try and repost the correct info.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 2:50:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/16/2001 2:44:02 PM EST by arex]
What's up with the cops and the M60? I mean, couldn't they get their hands on a 20mm or something?? heh.
True, we should be able to own the same hardware as the PD!
And the Hollywood shootout? I still can't figure out why an 870 with BS/slugs couldn't do the job. Those punks didn't use effective cover and had pretty poor fire and manuever techniques. Yeah, he was wearing body armor, but slugs will still knock you on your A. Especially if you're shot in the face. heh.
And AKs are old currency for L.A., rocket-launchers and mortars are new school.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 3:03:48 PM EST
Can someone tell me why the police need a M-60? I think accuracy and control of the M-60 would be big issues against using it in most cases. Maybe we can get them a M-2 or a few mortars to go with their M-60.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 3:52:47 PM EST
If they had an armored car with an M-60 mounted in north hollywood, the standoff would have been a lot shorter.

Heavily armed law enforcement keeps criminals in check. and at least up to par with the criminals weaponry.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 4:23:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/16/2001 4:21:07 PM EST by hg112]

Originally Posted By natez:

Following your impeccable logic, why would anyone need an AR15?



I have an AR15 for many reasons. Target shooting, hunting, protection. It is my right and I pay for it with my own money, NOT your tax dollars.

The purpose of the police is to serve and protect. I suppose the P90 would help accomplish that.
All I am saying is that I don't think they need an M60 or any other SAW to serve and protect. Police aren't the military and they aren't any better, responsible, or more intelligent than the rest of the general public. It's scary that most people think they are though.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 4:25:58 PM EST


Well, if the SWAT in my city has M-60, I just wish when they raid a house in my area, they can tell me, so I can get the hell out before
any shooting starts. Yeh, like they are going to tell me.


Link Posted: 11/16/2001 5:05:19 PM EST
Nocomp

I think a .308 bolt gun or semi-auto would do better than a belt feed MG. Remember there are innocent people around the police can't just go firing up a neighborhood to get one or two guys.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 5:19:07 PM EST
First the question someone asked about overpenetration. The ss109 ammo for the P-90 is actually a steel/aluminum construction that tummbles once it hits something so there is vertually zero overpenetration. Second I still can't see why the training ammo and the five-seven (Handgun) can't be sold to the public. I asked FN and was told only that its because the BATF says so.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 5:27:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By kwb377:
Well for one thing, now his picture is plastered all over the world on the internet. Anyone with a grudge (see above posts) finds him out with his family at the mall and clobbers him. Why not then post your personal pic on the internet? And as for LE's needing a P90 (or any other weapon of that nature), did anyone hear about a little known bank robbery a couple of years ago in N. Hollywood? I heard that there were a couple of guy armed with a trunk load of full autos (AK, M16, HK91). But I'm sure nothing like that could have happened. Proably just a couple of innocent, law abiding citizens being harrassed by the police. If only someone could have gotten it on video! Surely the LEO's could have apprehended those guys with .38 specials.



His face .....or mask is plastered all over the Internet because he looks like a DOOFUS! His worst enemy is his own fear. He hides behind the mask, the mask falls down, rides up. Some judge will accept this guys testimony? He can't see! Are there really that many cop grudge killings? We'll just call him "Bulletstopper" at the Tac lectures.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 7:22:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By kwb377:
....as for LE's needing a P90 (or any other weapon of that nature), did anyone hear about a little known bank robbery a couple of years ago in N. Hollywood? I heard that there were a couple of guy armed with a trunk load of full autos (AK, M16, HK91). But I'm sure nothing like that could have happened. ...Surely the LEO's could have apprehended those guys with .38 specials.


Well maybe not a .38, but a scoped 30-30 or other deer rifle would have done the job a hell of a lot better than any subgun!
Oh, and Nate Z., since when did police work become about satisfying your ego with cool toys? That's for private individuals, not Gov't organizations. Cops just need enough tools to get the average job done. In the off chance (less than .001% of all your situations) you need more firepower, you should come and ask me for help.
Next you'll tell me that I don't need a wife with such big tits just to have my dinner cooked!
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 7:33:28 PM EST
I like you Garmentless.I never noticed the meal either!What was it?
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 7:43:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By GodBlessTexas:

Originally Posted By Matt_S:
I can see the need for LEO to have the P-90. In conducting raids of known crack houses and thing, it is a nice compact firearm that will not penetrate. Of course, for the same reasons, I believe this would also be a great weapon in a home defense situation. I.E. civilian use.



Matt_S, the SS-190 that the P-90 and Five Seven fires is an armor piercing round. It is specifically designed to penetrate walls, body armor, etc. Do you mean overpenetrate? According to FN's own balistics data, the SS-190 round can penetrate 48 layers of Kevlar at 200 meters with supersonic ammunition. The Five seveN pistol will penetrate 47 layers of kevlar at 50 meters, as weill the P90 using subsonic ammo when operated suppressed.

FN's website has complete balistic data on the SS-190 rounds, as well as the guns for those interested.

God Bless Texas




GBT,

I stand corrected on both counts. I did mean overpenetrate. I knew the 5.7mm would pierce body armor, but I didn't know it would pierce that much.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 8:24:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By Ropes4u:

Remember Ruby Ridge & Waco



Yeah, what he said!
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 8:24:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By kwb377:
Well for one thing, now his picture is plastered all over the world on the internet. Anyone with a grudge (see above posts) finds him out with his family at the mall and clobbers him. Why not then post your personal pic on the internet?



Yeah , that's a good point.
I think most innocent civilians prefer to be oppressed by masked faceless jack booted thugs.
Link Posted: 11/18/2001 5:59:11 AM EST
The HK PDW can also be a shoulder fired weapon. It doesn't look like it but it has a retractable stock.
Link Posted: 11/18/2001 10:55:33 PM EST
Isn't it just amazing, you post something that you think would be really cool for others to know about and it turns into a quasai (sp) flame and in general, cops shouldn;t have this or have that, blah blah blah blah.

I'm not going to bait anyone or make an attempt to start a flame war but the fact still remains, the FNP90 is an outstanding weapon, it is a class three weapon and so far only the ammo is available to LE. Sorry.
If you get the chance to shoot one, don't pass it up. It is a blast.

How this got started on the M60 thing is beyond me......................shhhish [:\]
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 7:05:59 AM EST
Yeah, but it's important that citizens get to express their opinions about government.

IIRC-LAPD didn't use slugs at the time of the N. Hollywood bank robbery.

The bank robber who "shoots himself" was also shot at the same time be a police officer, either wound was fatal, both to the head, that's why he moves 2 different ways then goes down. Supposedly the officer had a 9mm and was appx 75 yards away.

Yes a 30-30 would be a formidable weapon, but then again some LEA's don't issue ANY long guns. I think AR's would be ideal.......

The P-90 doesn't pass many of the FBI "standards" for penetration, in fact the round seems not to care whether or not it goes through armor, it penetrates appx the same amount of gelatin, either armored or regular, if what I read was accurate.

.223 usually over-penetrates less than 9 mm or .45 (fragmenting bullets??)

Link Posted: 11/19/2001 8:40:06 AM EST
I've heard nothing but great reviews about the P-90, but I have to say it's the ugliest gun ever made.

Got to love the 50 rnd capacity though....that's a lot of lead flying potential.
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 11:02:30 AM EST
I may be the only one but I love how that gun looks. I just looks comfortable to shoot.

In operation it kinda reminds me of a Calico, 50 round capacity, Top feed, and bottom ejection.


I would like to see a head to head comparision to the new HK PDW, but I think that's almost two different genre's. The HK seems more like a machine pistol to me the and the FN seems closer to a true SMG or carbine to me.
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 11:38:51 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 12:02:30 PM EST
"Why do the Police need an M-60?" Well, the M-60 may be overkill for most situations, and it's not necessarily as accurate as a sniper rifle and it might penetrate more than a .223.

I'm not an LEO, but something to think about is the intimidation factor that a firearm like this might present to an alleged perp. They might not "need" it, (ie it might not fit the tactical role perfectly) but it might still be "useful" to have present. As long as the officer responsible for the firearm uses it in a way that is commensurate with the job at hand, it's being used correctly- even if not a single shot fired.

The anti-'s use this argument against us (What do you need a gun for, when a bow and arrow could work?, etc.) all the time. Let's not give them ammo.
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 12:08:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By rg00red:
Besides, the guys who robbed that bank were firing armor-piercing rounds. That armored car with its rather weak steel plate armor wouldn't last very long.



Not true. Sadly, even gun-knowledgable folks still believe this because the on-scene reporters kept saying it over and over. They were NOT firing AP rounds. They were firing .308, 7.62x39, and .223 ammo. All of these rounds will penetrate standard police-issue pistol-rated body armor, as will most rifle calibers. That is NOT the same thing as "armor-piercing" ammo.
-Troy



Excellent point Troy!

I get so tired of hearing "Cop Killer bullets" or "armor piercing bullets" . That is crap!

Just about ANY centerfire rifle cartridge will defeat Class II , Class IIA , & Class III
vests worn by the majority of LEO's in the USA.

All of those vests are Kevler or Aramid fiber derivitives that are designed to stop most handgun rounds depending on the vest rating.

No AP ammo for handguns is legal for sale to civilians & I'm not sure what could even be used?

.454 Casull ? .50 AE ?? I dunno.

and how many reporters call hollow points AP ammo?

That is so ridiculous!!!

If a person wants vests to stop centerfire rifle cartridges then Ceramic or Metal plate is required. This stuff is bulky & pricey.
I think only a few elite LEO units &/or Special Forces units use it in very specific situations.
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 12:19:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By pakrat:
Isn't it just amazing, you post something that you think would be really cool for others to know about and it turns into a quasai (sp) flame and in general, cops shouldn;t have this or have that, blah blah blah blah.



Some topics will raise the ire of some people.
Some people just like to stir the pot!



fact still remains, the FNP90 is an outstanding weapon, it is a class three weapon and so far only the ammo is available to LE. Sorry.
If you get the chance to shoot one, don't pass it up. It is a blast. [:\]



I think your absolutely correct! I wish I could own one/shoot one!

I wonder , what would prevent someone from making their own wildcat equivalent of the
5.7mm round ???

Couldn't a manufacturer design a new cartridge & a new semi-auto carbine that fired it from proprietary 10rd magazines with a pistol grip stick & smooth barrel?

What's the difference in 5.56 being legal & 5.7mm not??

What discretion/judgement does BATF utilize to enforce such a decision????

Just curious??

What if 5.56mm/.223 was brand new & not such a standardized & popular cartridge?
Would the powers that be make it illegal?

hmmm...
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 1:16:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By cnatra:

What's the difference in 5.56 being legal & 5.7mm not??



The 5.7 can be used as a handgun round and the ATF deems it as "non-sporting," meaning it's only real use is to kill...like ammo in general isn't used for that...
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 1:32:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2001 1:25:38 PM EST by cc48510]
what about .454 Cassul, it has more power than many Rifle rounds and can be used in handguns. What about the fact a .50BMG can be used in a few 50 Caliber Bolt-Action Handguns. Point being, the ATF cannot just ban a cartidge becuase it is usuable in a handgun. Most likely becuase the only 2 guns it is usable in are LEO only.


Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By cnatra:

What's the difference in 5.56 being legal & 5.7mm not??



The 5.7 can be used as a handgun round and the ATF deems it as "non-sporting," meaning it's only real use is to kill...like ammo in general isn't used for that...

Link Posted: 11/19/2001 1:37:15 PM EST
I would say somebody needs to make a "Sporting" Rifle in 5.7mm, so that Civies can then buy the ammunition.

Possibly, a small alteration .2224 (.223)to .228 (5.7 mm) on a BOlt-Action Rifle. Then begin selling it in the Civie market and demand that the ATF allow the sale of the ammo. for this "sporting" rifle.
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