I have been intrigued with these rifles for a log time. My question is just how accurate are they? At this I mean compared to a standard 20 inch Hbar Ar.

Not terribly accurate nor or they particularly reliable. If you want to get a Bullpup get a Steyr Aug.

I have both a Bushmaster M-17 and a 20" Hbar.
I have never had any problem with either, so I can't make the argument that it is more reliable, but I can say that the bullpup is at least at realiable as my AR.
What I can say though, is that on any given day I shoot tighter groups with my M-17 then my AR. (when both are scoped)

I've owned one of these things now for a couple of years.  They aren't as accurate as an AR because the trigger is really poor.  There's alot of home tinkering you can do to help it a long way, but it will always be worse than an AR trigger.  Other than the trigger, there's really no drawbacks to accuracy.  Groups run about an inch bigger than an AR, smaller than an AK though.

I wouldn't say it's more reliable either.  It's more finiky as to the mag type in it.  I've had trouble with last round hold opens with some mags, and not stripping a round out of the mag, and getting rounds loose inside the action (I have no idea how, but I've had fully loaded rounds jiggling around in the receiver).  With really good condition USGI mags, I haven't had problems.  USGI mags that are used (and work fine in any AR) will sometimes give problems.  The gun is far easier to clean and maintain, but I'd still have to say that a high quality AR will have a higher mean time between failure rate, i.e. work better, than the M-17s.  All of the failues that I have experienced have been magazine related.  Possibly because the whole lower housing is plastic, and maybe it expands or contracts more with heat, or whatever.  I dunno, but they've all been mag related one way or another.  

There's also alot of other quirks with the gun.  Most of them are easy fixes, but they should have been just done right at the factory.  Things like no handguard, bogus scope platform, etc. are all things that should have been just designed right from Bushmaster in the first place.

All in all, if I were to grab a gun I needed to work.  I would take an AR over the M-17s.  It's a very handy gun.  The layout takes some getting used to, and you'll either love it or hate it.  I like it personally, and I'm still tweaking mine.  I expect that sooner or later I'll have the gun where I want it to be in the reliabilty and features department, but it just isn't there quite yet.  

I think the M-17s is a good gun, but I still view it as a "work in progress" rather than a fully developed gun that you could stack up against any of the current crop of mil-spec guns (M-16, AUG, FNC, etc).

Ross

Quoted: Not terribly accurate nor or they particularly reliable. If you want to get a Bullpup get a Steyr Aug.

Do you own one?  I only ask because most people that knock the M17S don't actually have a lot of experience with it.

I have both an AR and an M17S and I believe the M17S is a superior rifle.  If I had to stake my life on one of them, the AR would be gathering dust in my closet.

Pros: (1) The basic bullpup advantage.  21.5" barrel in a overall package shorter than a 16" AR.  (2) MUCH better balance for shooting and carrying.  (3) cleaner and more reliable gas system.

Cons: (1) absolutely crappy fixed sights -need optics.  (2) trigger is not great.

However, since the M17S is cheaper than an AR, you can spend the difference on better optics.  And, the trigger is really not much worse than a stock AR trigger (and can be tweaked).  Will it ever be a competition trigger? No.  Is the trigger fine for a service-type rifle?  Yes.

Some of the very early pre-ban M17s had some problems with the lowers, which were all ironed out in later versions.  Can it be improved?  Sure, that's why I sent mine to Kurt for some modifications and some cosmetic changes.  But the basic rifle for $600 NIB is a fantastic deal.


I really don't see the supposed disadvantages to the M17S, except that it apparently isn't as "cool" as a Steyr AUG.  No offense to you personally, but I HATE the "the Steyr AUG is better" response when people ask about the M17S.  If someone asked if the Camaro Z28 is a fast car, do you tell them the Ferrari F40 is a great car?

Ross is right, the triger is bad stock, but it's a preaty easy at home job to make it much smoother, I forgot the URL but there is a web page somewhere that explains how to a triger job on it.

webarmory.ixworld.com/faqs/m17s_mods/m17s_mods.html

This works well. As stated above, the factory sights are terrible. I use a C-More Railway now, but have had a 3-9x on it before and had no problems getting a good group,not quite as good as my AR, but that could just be me. I was also thinking of cleaning out the mag well, making it larger so they drop a little easier. Has anyone tried this?

getting rounds loose inside the action (I have no idea how, but I've had fully loaded rounds jiggling around in the receiver).

I believe this results from the gap between the barrel and the receiver.  It is possible, though difficult, for a round to slip past the chamber into the receiver.  Fortunately the vent holes in the receiver will allow you to shake the round out.

I'd still have to say that a high quality AR will have a higher mean time between failure rate, i.e. work better, than the M-17s.

And Bushmaster has, from what I understand, kind of abandoned development of the M17.  The AR-15 design is continually evolving thanks to the efforts of many shops.

And Bushmaster has, from what I understand, kind of abandoned development of the M17. The AR-15 design is continually evolving thanks to the efforts of many shops.

Very few guns indeed get as much development attention as anything the US military uses.  Bushmaster's core business is AR stuff, and that's where the money is.  Business is business.  

There's really not a huge market for the bullpup.  I like the configuration myself, but alot of folks hate it.  Even if they poured a ton of money into the M17s, there probably wouldn't be a much larger market for it than it already has.  

I always get a ton of questions when I shoot mine.  The easiest way to answer most of those is to just let them shoot it.  You either like it or you don't.  

I've had mine about two years and I've put about 1000rds through it so far.  I like the gun, but mine just isn't quite there yet.  Some day I'll acttually take the time and make it the way I want, but I've got plenty of other gun projects in line right now.  Oh well, sooner or later it will be done.  

Ross

Just for S's and Grins:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=59794
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=33150
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=57301
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=49044
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=33146
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=19108
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=66447
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=66510

My take is that it is like a 1911.  Its pretty cool out of the box, but I wouldn't grab it first for a life and death situation.  If, however, you are willing to sink the purchase price again into fixing it up, you may just have a thing of beauty (and a thing to grab when the S hits the F).  

Even if you put double the purchase price into modifying it and accessorizing it, you are still far less than a naked AUG.  

When I get mine back from Kurt it will have:
-a smooth trigger pull of about 5 lbs;
-a drop free mag well;
-an overall length of a hair over 26" but with the ballistics just a tad better than a 16" AR,
-a rail underneath for a KAC broomhandle grip and a light;
-cooling/lightening holes;
-the carry handle replaced with a flip up charging handle and a full length rail to mount either an OKO (if the built in "pistol sights" work) or an Aimpoint with Kac 300 m flip up rear and flip up front post;
-Quick detach swivel mounts for either a tac sling or a short loop to hang under the right arm pit;
-a trap door in the pistol grip for spare batteries and ear plugs

It is very reliable. My m17 is my favorite gun. THe trigger is as good as a normal ar trigger. Its better that my homebuilt ar, and better than my dad's colt's trigger. It's no match trigger but it works every time. With red dot sights I can get sub 1" groups at 50 yds. When I get mine back from being re-anodized after milling in slots and other mods it will again be my highly fondeled toy. I don't feel it's the prettiest gun at the ball but since it's at short as a 16" barrel and a collapsed stock rifle makes it a good CQB weapon. If I was spending your money I'd buy the aug, but as you can tell when I'm spending my money I bought the M17s. I love it.

Guncrazy223

www.no-treason.com/laissezfirearm/bushm17s.htm
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=68149

another one (not a bad price if you know a FFL who will handle the transfer)

www.freedomarmory.com/bushmaster.htm
or two
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=67207