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Posted: 11/5/2001 8:48:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/5/2001 9:26:05 AM EDT by IamDick]
I want to add an Enfield to my collection. But I have no idea as to what model would be the best to buy are were to go. What do you suggest. How avalible is .303? Also were on the web would be a good source to purchase?

Thanks,
Dick
Link Posted: 11/5/2001 9:13:44 AM EDT
I'd buy whatever is in the best condition.

The Jungle Carbines are disappearing again but I'd still try to find one in nice condition with all matching serial numbers.

You can buy Remington .303 at Wal-Mart.

Dennis Jenkins




Originally Posted By IamDick:
I want to add an Enfield to my collection. But I have no idea as to what model would be the best to buy are were to go. What do you suggest. How avalible is .303?

Thanks,
Dick

Link Posted: 11/5/2001 9:27:08 AM EDT
No. 4 MK 1

The no. 5 jungle carbine has a wandering zero problem because the reciever flexes during firing due to the lightning cuts under the wood
Link Posted: 11/5/2001 9:29:58 AM EDT
You might be able to pick up one of the "Irish Contract" Enfield #4 Mk 2. Many of these are NIW, just proof-fired.

303 is still available, but the bullet selection is basically 150gr and 180gr. The 150gr don't shoot very well out of mine, but it just loves the 180s.

If you reload, the selection is a bit wider, but realize that not many bullet mfgs, make .310-.312 bullets either.
Link Posted: 11/5/2001 11:27:24 AM EDT
For a shooter...that's a hell of a lot of fun...either the No.5 Jungle from Gibbs or even the No. 7 from Gibbs...These things are just a friggin blast to shoot....a little heavy on the recoil side..but WTF....it's a carbine with history. The No. 5 is .303 and the No. 7 is .308. I had a hair up my butt one day and bought both, glad I did....lot's of fun. Gibbs goes through the entire rifle and spruces things up. If you want something that's not gone over besides by maybe an armory in the 50's, you can search through the online auctions or I think SOG has em for sale.

www.gibbsrifle.com
Link Posted: 11/5/2001 12:06:45 PM EDT
A friend of mine just picked up a Number 1 mark 3 and it is a blast to shoot. He also got a bandolier of corrosive mil-surplus on stripper clips as part of the deal for dirt cheap. Just had to scrub good afterwards.

My Wal-Mart doesn't have .303.
Link Posted: 11/5/2001 12:18:18 PM EDT
The Jungle Carbine doesn't really have a wandering zero.

Mine doesn't wander and I've never heard of anyone having one that did.

It's an urban legend.

Dennis Jenkins




Originally Posted By YngSAR1:
No. 4 MK 1

The no. 5 jungle carbine has a wandering zero problem because the reciever flexes during firing due to the lightning cuts under the wood

Link Posted: 11/5/2001 12:37:24 PM EDT
You should look at a Indian Ishapore 2A1, it's basicly a No.1 Mk. 3 in .308 with a 12 rd magazine. Lets you shoot cheap .308 and looks jusk like a .303 except for the boxy mag, people always ask if it's a 15 round .303 mag.
Although in California the 12 rd mag might be replaced with a 10 rounder.
Link Posted: 11/5/2001 12:55:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/5/2001 12:51:12 PM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 11/5/2001 1:49:27 PM EDT
The Jungle Carbine wandering zero is a myth that the gun writers keep repeating.

I never been able to find any one with first hand experience with a "wandering zero."

It's just a myth that gets repeated over and over by the ignorant.

Dennis Jenkins



quote]Originally Posted By raf:
A couple of points to consider:
(1) I've seen the "wandering zero" of the ORIGINAL jungle carbine reported by enough credible writers to think there might be something to it. Repro jungle carbines leave out the cuts and are reputedly more accurate. I'd do some research if I were you.
(2) Beginning with the #4 MK I, the Brits wisely switched to rear-mounted peep aperture rear sights, discarding the outmoded forward mounted rear sights. The Peep sights are WAY easier to shoot with, and give better accuracy, all other things being equal. This is particularly true if your eyes are getting older.
I'd get an Indian #1 MK 3 in 7.62 NATO, and CAREFULLY install a Williams or Lyman Receiver sight. I say carefully, as you don't want to mess up the stripper clip loading function.
This way, you get a windage and elevation adjustable rear peep aperture sight. I did this on an Enfield, and it was a huge improvement. You MIGHT need to rework/raise the front sight, but believe me, the slight hassle will be well worth it.
If you don't want the hassle, or want to keep it all original, then get a #4 MK2 in .303.
Keep in mind the near universality if 7.62 NATO ammo, and the fact that it is also superior to the .303, IMHO.
Link Posted: 11/5/2001 3:48:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/5/2001 3:58:17 PM EDT
It's ignorant to pass on myths that you DO NOT have first hand knowledge of.

That's how the .223 bullets tumble in flight thing got started and took wing.

Think what you will.


Dennis Jenkins




Originally Posted By raf:
Mr. Jenkins, I'm happy that your jungle carbine shoots well. As you will note from my post, I do NOT make any ironclad assertions about the "wandering zero" question, but merely report what I have heard, clearly labeling it so.
I also suggest that the topic poster do some research into the matter; always sound advice prior to making a purchase.
Now, if doing the above makes me ignorant in your eyes, so be it. I think I'll get by somehow while carrying that burden.

Link Posted: 11/5/2001 4:20:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/5/2001 5:28:19 PM EDT
I have (3) No4 Mk I's. One is a unissued Savage Arms. The Savage is the jewel of my collection, the other (2) are excellent shooters. I do like the peep sight of the No 4's. Someday I will buy a No 1, but am holding out for an example in excellent condition. Still plenty of surplus .303 out there, but it is corrosive. If by chance I seen a Indian Ishapore 7.62 example in nice shape and priced right at a local gun shop, i would most likely buy it. I have been wanting one for a while, but haven't taken the CAI crap shoot.

OSA
Link Posted: 11/5/2001 5:34:15 PM EDT
Along with that Gibbs Rifle link, you might look into these:

www.gunboards.com/forums/UltraBoard.cgi?action=Headlines&BID=20&SID=286113

www3.sympatico.ca/shooters/303Page.htm

I like the little Gibbs'. Might have to get one someday...Extreme Quest II, I think it is.

Link Posted: 11/5/2001 5:45:54 PM EDT
I cannot speak for all of them, but a friend of mine bought a Mk. V and the damn thing wanders all over the place. Maybe he just got a bad one. He is a damn sight better shot than I am with just about anything that shoots a bullet, so I do not think its just him. His old man found an article that reports the Mk V to be one of the most inaccurate rifles ever fielded and keeps reminding my friend of seeing it.

I feel kinda bad about the whole thing. He asked what I though when he was looking at it and I said, "It fires .308, its gotta be fairly accurate."

He did just buy a different model also chambered for .308 and says this one shoots pretty much right on.

Link Posted: 11/5/2001 6:47:17 PM EDT
How about one of these:

http://www.50world.com/forums/topic.html?id=64
Link Posted: 11/5/2001 7:15:12 PM EDT
Pissing matches aside.....The Gibbs stuff is awesome. It's an old rifle in its untouched form, made for the Jungle where accuracy wasn't foremost in the design, swinging it in confined spaces and power was. Tons of other rifles in the British inventory were designed for better accuracy. Soooo, with that said,...Dick? You might want to make a run through a search engine, just type in Enfield and you'll have reading material to last a week or two. The ol' Enfields are awesome, a bit of history to say the least. You can buy Enfields made here, or in Merry Ol' England or India. You can buy sniper rifles, even matching numbered rifles and scopes if you wish. C&R collecting is a very addicting to say the least.

Pick up a Shotgun News, run around Gun Broker, Auction Arms, GunsAmerica...lots of auction sites out there. Go to Gunboards.com and look for the board that features Enfields. Great bunch of guys there. If you haven't done the auctions before, be wary of the prices....get acquainted with NRA ratings. I always preferred, when I first started, something that was all scratched up, maybe even scorched a little but still shootable. It was the history thing to me, who held it, what battles, was it even in a battle....stuff like that. Most of it was just imagination on my part, actually tracing origins except for armories, is very difficult.


Good luck Dick

Arguing on the Internet is like running in the Special Olympics, even if you win, you're still retarted
Link Posted: 11/5/2001 7:26:33 PM EDT
On Ammo for the Enfield:
303 British can be found in most places in America and all throughout Canada, Australia, New Zealand and in most places in Africa, Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Ammo is easy to come by. In America most Hunting Ammo comes in either 150 or 180 grain bullets. If you handload your own ammo then you can pull the 123 grain bullets from 7.62 x 39 mm Ammo since 7.62 x 39 mm ammo has a bullet diameter of .311. You can load these on a .303 British Case and get a nice fast short range round.

.303 MkVII Surplus Ammo uses a 174 grain FMJBT that has an Aluminum insert in it which moves the center of gravity pretty far back towards the base of the bullet. This causes the bullet to tumble like a buzz saw once it enters a body. Nasty Stuff.

Avoid .303 Ammo made by POF (Pakistani Ordnance Factory) the stuff is corrosive and sometimes you will get misfires. Greek 303 Ammo is very good.


Also you can get 215 grain RN bullets from Woodleigh or Hawk. Which is very good for Moose.

Link Posted: 11/5/2001 8:47:54 PM EDT
The No 4 Mk 2 is probably the best all around Enfield and there are a boatload of them around so the prices are reasonable. Theres a ton of surplus .303 stll around so ammo isn't a problem either. My personal favorite is the No 3 Mk1 ( P14 ), I also have a No 4 and a jungle carbine but I like shooting the P14 !
Link Posted: 11/5/2001 9:44:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/5/2001 9:38:16 PM EDT by Bostonterrier97]
More on the Enfield:
What Enfield you should buy..it really depends upon what you are looking for and what you want to do with it.
If you are just collecting ONLY and want an Enfield Collection then you will want to try to get one of each type of model.

If you want something to shoot and blast away..then you will most likely want something like an No.4 Mk.1 or one of the repro "Jungle Carbines".

The No. 4 Actions are the strongest (Except for the P14 and 1917 Enfield which are really a beefed up Action based on the Mauser design)

The smoothest actions are the No.1 Mk III (or SMLE) rifles. But their actions are a lot weaker than the No. 4 Mk 1 and No. 4 Mk.2 rifles.

The SMLE is definately "neater looking".


Random Stuff:

The No. 4 Mk. 1 Action can withstand pressures equivalent to 7.62 NATO. So you can rebarrel these actions, change the extractor and magazine and get it to shoot 7.62 NATO.

Which is the Brits did for sniping weapons. The L42A1 was such an Enfield. Basically they converted No.4 Mk.1 T Sniping Rifles which were originally chambered in 303 Brit and created the L42A1 which was chambered in 7.62 NATO. They used the L42A1 up until about 1985.

Another thing you can do is to take a reamer and ream out the chamber on a No. 4 Action, and ream it out to 303 Epps. And you can load it up to 7.62 NATO pressures. (DONT do this on a SMLE !!!! It will blow up on you.)

If you have a P14 then you can hand load your 303 Epps to be very HOT.


The Enfield has an interesting quirk. The barrel harmonics tend to compensate for variations in muzzle velocity from shot to shot which tend to have the best effect at about 900 yards on group sizes.


You will notice that the Enfield's rear sight does NOT have windage. However, if you look pretty hard..you can frequently come across a Parker Hale target sight. These are very sweet, got windage and elevation. And they screw in where the safety is..no gunsmithing necessary.

I put a Parker Hale PH5A sight on one of my SMLE's it shoots very nicely now!

Check out www.303British.com
and the Lee Enfield Forum at: www.gunandknife.com/cgi-bin/forums/enfconfig.pl for more info. Also the FAQ at www.recguns.com for more info

Link Posted: 11/6/2001 5:55:29 AM EDT
I personally like the No1 Mark III rifles. They are cheap. I paid $68 for mine 6 years ago. I have seen some newer ones, made in the early 50s for $99 at a local show. I have looked at the 4s and don't really care for them. I can shoot really well with the older sights.

The biggest factor would be finding one. Earlier this year I saw many Mark IIIs, at the last show 2 weeks ago, only the 4s were present.

Back in April, I bought several crates of 303 at Knob Creek. The stuff was made in the 50s. 576 rounds for $80.
Link Posted: 11/6/2001 5:41:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2001 6:46:05 PM EDT
Thank you all for you input. Looks like I have alot of homework and reading to do!

Thanks,
Dick
Link Posted: 11/6/2001 6:52:01 PM EDT

Go check out the Lee-Enfield collectors forum on the gunandknife boards. I believe the link has already been posted.

If you are looking for an as-issued .303, I would look for a nice No4Mk2 in your local pawn shops.

Stay away from Gibbs. They tend to be put-togethers.

If you want a real No.5 have your local FFL order one from Southern Ohio Guns. www.southernohiogun.com/surplus_rifles.html

Look for matching bolt and action, and a "0" or "1" bolt head. A higher number bolt head may be fine, but a lower number is a safer bet.

If you have any questions email me, and I can send you a few more links.



Cheers,
Chris
Link Posted: 11/6/2001 6:56:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tep0583:
I cannot speak for all of them, but a friend of mine bought a Mk. V and the damn thing wanders all over the place. Maybe he just got a bad one. He is a damn sight better shot than I am with just about anything that shoots a bullet, so I do not think its just him. His old man found an article that reports the Mk V to be one of the most inaccurate rifles ever fielded and keeps reminding my friend of seeing it.

I feel kinda bad about the whole thing. He asked what I though when he was looking at it and I said, "It fires .308, its gotta be fairly accurate."

He did just buy a different model also chambered for .308 and says this one shoots pretty much right on.





A Mark V in .308? There is no such beast.

The MKV was the precursor to the No4MK1, and was in .303.

Chris
Link Posted: 11/7/2001 10:12:37 AM EDT
I went through the same question a few weeks ago when I was looking for an inexpensive surplus plinker. I had the Enfield on the counter and my hand on my wallet... but it was only 'good' condition, with fair-ish wood. The few Enfields I've shot have had a bit of muzzle flip... and I had heard stories about short case life due to stretching and case head separations... ended up with a NIB SKS instead.

...which I took home, dry fired, and promptly discovered that the hammer would not fall unless the center of the bolt were depressed and held down while the trigger was pulled. I believe this temporarily disqualifies me from making recommendations. :)
Link Posted: 11/7/2001 12:10:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KSshutr:
You might be able to pick up one of the "Irish Contract" Enfield #4 Mk 2. Many of these are NIW, just proof-fired.

303 is still available, but the bullet selection is basically 150gr and 180gr. The 150gr don't shoot very well out of mine, but it just loves the 180s.

If you reload, the selection is a bit wider, but realize that not many bullet mfgs, make .310-.312 bullets either.



I found one of these beauties and they are....well perfect in everyway! my irish gf loves to shoot it, makes her think she's in the IRA.
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