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4/25/2017 7:42:44 PM
Posted: 10/25/2001 7:49:16 PM EDT
Has it been replaced by better alternatives, or is there still a purpose for it in actual combat, as opposed to guard duty?

Did any service people here carry one in combat?

Link Posted: 10/25/2001 8:37:04 PM EDT
Sure there's a place for it. Spec. Ops. are using them to breech barricades and for CQB situations. As long as our armed forces are deploying to areas that have open terrain and extended ranges then the situations that call for a shotgun will be rare but they still need them in the inventory and need to train with them. I remember seeing Marines in Somalia armed with Mossberg 590's in the top hatches of LAV 25's and the streets crowded with Rags. Shotguns are great for up close and personal confrontations and this has not been forgotten by the U.S.M.C. who have always been ahead of the class when it comes to small arms.
Link Posted: 10/25/2001 8:43:52 PM EDT
I just saw the new shotgun the USMC was adopting, in a gun mag, somewhere. Still has a bayo lug, so somebody must still be thinking about them.
Link Posted: 10/25/2001 8:44:49 PM EDT
you should see the article on the new USMC shotgun in the NOV GUNS mag i just picked up it is sweet it is the new benelli m4
Link Posted: 10/25/2001 8:46:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/25/2001 8:40:31 PM EDT by cpermd]
I have 3 or 4 in locations at the house and farm I would hate to face.
cpermd
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 6:00:12 AM EDT
Combat shotgun is an oxymoron -- well almost.

Even the best is ineffective beyond 40 yards where only 3 of 9 00-buck pellets can be expected to strike a man sized target.

They still require aiming as the pattern only spreads 1"/yd at best, so even at 7 yards the pattern is only 7" wide.

They're low capacity and only a Colt Single Action Army revolver is slower to reload.

They have low wounding potential compared to the M4 Carbine.

They ARE intimidating as folks think they can knock people over furniture like in the movies.

I know guys who carried them on patrol. Once. Only a couple ever carried them twice. I'd expect more use in WW2 than recently as the M1 Rifle is very long.

Knocking out door locks with special ammo is a special use.

-- Chuck
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 6:09:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/26/2001 6:08:13 AM EDT by Quarterbore]
This is off topic but....

.... in a close face to face situation, I would much rather be facing someone with an AR-15 then a 12-gauge loaded with 00 Buck!

I have always thought that while the anti-gunners are taking away our semi-autos that the terror factor of a 12-gauge loaded with anything from #2 shot upto 00 Buck has been greatly unrespected.

I would hate to think about what would happen if someone with a measly 12-gauge pump shotgun and as little as 20-rounds of buckshot could do in a crouded area. I know in my home, I would always grab the 870 with #2 Federal Personal Defence 12-gauge over either the Glock or the AR-15s. Anybody I shoot with it will need to be washed off the wall and it will only take one shot!

Wounding potential, I will take 1 shot from an 223 anyday over a shot from a 12-gauge assuming the range is short! In Afganastan's caves... I think a 12-gauge may just be the best weapon for the job! The M-16 is versatile, but I would hope that those in the field have the BEST weapon for any given mission and I beleave the 12-gauge does still have a place where it is a better choice!
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 6:46:45 AM EDT
I agree that the Combat Shotgun does have a very valuable place for REAL CQB distances where mass damage at a very short range (Hallways, avg room 12x12) and quick disposal of your adversary is required (not to understate the value of an M-4 or MP-5). They a indispensable for Door Breeching and delivering special loads.
VERY LETHAL - YOU ARE FACING A MOVING HAMBURGER GRINDER!!!!
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 8:32:25 AM EDT
what about MOUT applications? i'd think they would very effective. also, i wouldn't mind one inside those Afghanni caves!
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 8:41:59 AM EDT
At very close range, how is one superior in any way to a battle rifle of the same size? There is no spread to the pattern, so aiming is a necessity. Recoil can be no better than what might be experienced from a 7.62 NATO rifle. Slow reloads. Limited ammo capacity. Heavy, bulky ammo limiting the ammount that can be carried.
Sorry, I'll take a 7.62 NATO or 5.56 NATO carbine over the shotgun.
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 8:43:46 AM EDT
Definitely still a use,

particularly in MOUT. Not so much on the Afghan planes, but they were pretty useful in Somalia. Watched my Top butt stroke the heck outta a Somali who was trying to steal his Berretta. Should see how big the guys eyes got when he looked up at the business end of the 12 ga. Like something outta a cartoon.

I have a friend who used to be PD, and he tells me he went through some crazy ricochet training where they were taught to "bounce" buckshot around corners to help take a hallway. Something you can't do so much with a M4. Didn't actually see it myself so don't blast me if it's BS, but I've known the guy for abt 6 yrs & he's not known to be a BS'er.

There was another good article this past sumemr abt tricking out a Rem 870, I recallthem saying it was very useful taking a ship. Guess the steel hallways would ricochet really well, sans hostages of course....

Every tool box has more than one tool, every gun safe should have a good shotgun.
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 8:56:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Quarterbore:
What are MOUT applications?

Also, great looking Jeep you have there!



thanks, that's just the one thats pretty enough for pix! you should see the other one! BTW, i'm from Lancaster originally, you?

oh yeah, Military Operations on Urban Terrain.
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 9:26:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Golgo-13:
At very close range, how is one superior in any way to a battle rifle of the same size? There is no spread to the pattern, so aiming is a necessity. Recoil can be no better than what might be experienced from a 7.62 NATO rifle. Slow reloads. Limited ammo capacity. Heavy, bulky ammo limiting the ammount that can be carried.
Sorry, I'll take a 7.62 NATO or 5.56 NATO carbine over the shotgun.



true, there is little spread, but c'mon, i think at least one guy in the unit should have one! think of door breaching, knocking out power lines/insulators, wrecking comm equipment, scaring the crap out of prisoners, there are thousands of reasons to have at least one handy.

Quarterbore, E-town, huh? we had friends who owned a farm there, cattle were wiped out by the radiation that officially never leaked out of TMI.
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 10:01:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fattym4:
......... cattle were wiped out by the radiation that officially never leaked out of TMI.



Now, there goes your sellers commission on the house! The "Glow" of the TMI towers is one of the best selling points! LOL!
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 1:25:20 PM EDT
One word:

Caves.
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 1:50:57 PM EDT
Chuck-

Even the best is ineffective beyond 40 yards where only 3 of 9 00-buck pellets can be expected to strike a man sized target

My Vang Comp begs to differ.

They still require aiming ....

Yes of course - every weapon needs to be aimed -why is this a flaw?

They have low wounding potential compared to the M4 Carbine.

I am not a ballistics expert but slug vs .223? I think the advantage goes to the slug inside of 200 yrds.

I am not diagreeing that they have a limited role and that there are many misceptions surronding them - however I do not think they are as limited as you have indicated.

Link Posted: 10/26/2001 2:03:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/26/2001 1:58:33 PM EDT by GodBlessTexas]

Originally Posted By SS109:
Has it been replaced by better alternatives, or is there still a purpose for it in actual combat, as opposed to guard duty?



If there wasn't a need for one then Benelli wouldn't have put the M4 into testing for the Joint Service Combat Shotgun, which is the USMC shotgun you guys are talking about. I belive they just oredered 4,000 of them.



God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 8:44:16 PM EDT
Wow! I want one of those

Shotguns might not be the best in all scenarios...but are sure fun to shoot and like Six stated, a slug will punch a big hole in something out to 200 yards
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 9:01:12 AM EDT
Some here know this, but the M4 is available here in Finland like any other Benelli model.

Our dealership sold the first Benelli M4 in June 00.

Incredible weapon, shoulder´s like an Benelli M1 Tactical and has lower recoil because of the gas operatins system.
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