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Posted: 10/23/2001 12:06:40 AM EST
I keep hearing that I am under armed with an AR type rifle. I have a Bushmaster A2 with 20" barrel. If TSHF and I am forced to head to rural parts of my state and be well armed for battle, then won't I be better off with owning a firearm that can reach out and touch someone at 800 to 1000 yds?? I figure its better to hit your enemy at long range and split and fight another day, and the AR15 can't accomplish this tactic as well. I am begining to believe that the M1a and M1 Garand have always been the true warriors rifle. It hits hard and can be counted on to accomplish 1 shot kills (i like my enemies dead). Seems like a person would want to have the best and most reliable rifle he can get since His life depends upon one shot kills and long distance Guerilla tactics in order to survive and reep havoc on the enemy.
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 12:21:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2001 12:19:46 AM EST by operatorerror]
Whatever. Sell your POS Bushmaster, it sucks. Not reliable at all. Go out and get yourself a real rifle.

BTW, I'll take that Bushmaster off your hands for ya'.

Dude, seriously, have you ever even tried to shoot 1,000 yards?
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 12:35:27 AM EST
I did what you're thinking about doing, and realistically, stick with the Bushy. A moving target (who's gonna sit still and wait for the bullet to arrive?) is ridiculously hard to hit, especially at long range. Most combat takes place at 400yds or less, and the AR15 has got the M1A beat in that it 1) has much less recoil, which allows for quicker follow-up shots 2) is PLENTY accurate enough at the 0-400 yd range 3) allows you to carry an assload of ammo 4)is a lot shorter and lighter(a real plus if you end up humping it around all day) On the 1000-yd thing: Nobody is going to engage at any 1000 yds, except for a VERY highly-trained sniper. Any farther than 500 yds or so with iron sights, and all you're really doing is giving the bad guys your location.
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 12:46:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By john232:
I keep hearing that I am under armed with an AR type rifle.



No, you are quite well armed with an AR type rifle.

I'd expect those who say otherwise have never been hit by one, or have never seen a competant shooter fire one up.

The M1A is awesome in my opinion. The AR-15 is great as well. Personally I prefer the 30 caliber round, but even so, saying carrying an AR is being "under armed" is ridiculous.

30 rounds of 5.56mm is not something I'd like to face. (neither is 20 rounds of 7.62). You have an awesome piece of firepower.

Save up and get the m1a later.

Link Posted: 10/23/2001 1:33:05 AM EST
I would not sell my Bushmasters to finance any other rifle. Blood and furniture, however, can be easily replaced.
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 2:07:12 AM EST
Keep the Bushmaster. Save your pennies for an M1A.
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 2:31:24 AM EST
John I own one of each and can tell you the ar requires less maintance and you can carry more ammo and a one in 8 twist will shoot 1,000 yards and besides in the woods or in urban area it won't matter much .Best weapon is one you can use and handle.Plus 800 yard shots in combat with all the streses of battle is a long shot.Listen don't get spooked we are all together and it will take a really lot to pull the U.S. down.Keep the faith.SEmper FI
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 2:39:19 AM EST
If it is your only AR, maybe... But if you have several AR's

YES!!


My AR's are fun to shoot but if TSHTF I'm grabbing one of my M1A's.

Also, the M1A is a LOT easier to clean IMHO.

Libertas an Mortis!
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 2:55:32 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 3:10:41 AM EST
There was a time, a few years ago, whenI thought the ideal SHTF weapon was my Remington 700 in 300 Winchester Mag. This is a true 1000-yrd rifle and it would do a great job at a long distance poke and then let me run like hell....

These days, however, I firmly beleave that the best weapon is without doubt the AR-15. I got into shooting DCM/CMP and I will admit after shooting full cource at 600-yards and printing groups that indicate that I could engague human sized targets at that distance combined with the rapid fire capacity, cheap and plentiful spare parts, cheap high capacity magazines, cheap and easy to carry 223 ammo, and the abuility to have various uppers, stocks, grips, accessories to customize the AR-15 for any purpose makes the AR-15 THE SHTF weapon of choice for me!

Now, I also recently purchased an AR-10 that I hope works out nearly as well as the AR-15s so I also have a 308 but the AR-15 is the first weapon of choice.... Well, actually I like my ARs so much I bought an M-16 and if the shit really hits the fan, I will be using the M-16 to come to the aid of my country!
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 3:12:04 AM EST
john232, you could purchase a varmint type upper if you want to touch someone at long range, a good 24" hvy. free-floated AR will reach 800 w/ mag length 77SMKs easy. Good one will get you there in good air w/ 0.5 moa accuracy. Scope will play a big part in this long range solution so don't scrimp on optics.

Now that's said understand I would not trade my match barreled '06 M1 Tanker for all the tea in china. As others have said, it's like golf, nice to have the right club for the job at hand and it's real hard to beat the venerable garand for knock down power and battle proven reliability.

Mike
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 4:18:03 AM EST
Gee,5.56 seems to do the job quite nicely in the hands of our troops(especially SF)and the only time they even dig out the "antiques"is when they are in the desert,tundra or plains and even then they just have one or two guys running them to increase engagement ranges a hair.Rangers qualify with M4 carbines at 500M can you even hit at 500M with iron sights?Thos days are at least ten years in the past for for me due to eyesight(hence the scope and QD rings;) why don't you try some excercises with your 5.56:shoot a pie plate at 500M and when you can consistently hit that without a miss in 30rds then worry about increasing your range and then when you do that save yourself some money and get a boltgun that will outperform that M1A 2to1 for half the price.If you are worrying about armor penetration then runn "Green Tip" it had equal penetration to 7.62 lead core ball on hard targets and you can carry 3 times as much of it into your AO.I personally like the Remington LTR in that little choate folding sniper stock for a handy long range package and I'll bet that an M1A that can shoot half as accurately would cost at least $2500(stock M1As are not very accurate and need lot's of tuning).If you are worrying about soft target penetration(trees,dirt,cars,block walls)then you might realy have a use for the 7.62 but I don't see that as enough of an advantage to make me give up the quick handling,fast reloads,practical accuracy and volume of firepower that my M4s give me over the M1A.Don't get me wrong,I like M1As for defending a static position and if it were legal to have 7.62 "Black Tip" or SLAP I could see a real advantage but since that's not the case keep the Bushmaster and save the M1A for when you have the disposable income to just buy one as an aside to your primary weapon.


just my opinion
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 4:57:32 PM EST
I wouldn't sell an AR to get an M1A. I have (2) M1A's and a Bushy AR-15.

For SHTF, it would depend on the scenario on which rifle I chose.

Keep the AR, and save for the M1A. I spent ten years saving for my Springfield.
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 5:00:12 PM EST
Only if you intend to hang out at some of the militia forums. Man, are they hard on us 5.56 owners!

Bradd
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 7:04:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2001 7:00:09 PM EST by Bostonterrier97]
I have both. Though I prefer the M1A over the AR15. My advice to you is to save your money, keep the AR and buy the M1A (or an M1 Garand).

This will increase your flexibility to arm yourself as the situation may require.

For true precision shots you will want a BOLT Action. Preferabley one that is custom built on a Hall Action (single shot) with a Lija barrel.
this would shoot rings around any tricked out Remington, you just dont get a fast follow up shot.

As for Penetration and windbucking ability. You can get 168 grain AP ammo loaded on 30-06 cartridges, pull the bullets and load them on .308 cartridges for your M1A. These will out penetrate .223 green tip ammo anyday.


Link Posted: 10/24/2001 9:02:05 PM EST
Don't dump yer AR. Keep it and save for the M1A if you can. I have 2 ARs and an M1A, and my CAR goes everywhere nowadays. If I were gonna hole-up in a SHTF scenario I'd want my M1A. But I'd be perfectly happy with the CAR if it were my only.
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 10:12:06 PM EST
I have a Garand and an AR-15, among others. At long range, I'd rather have the AR rather than the Garand. The AR is simply more accurate.

The M1A and Garand can do just better than 1 moa when they are tuned, but they require regular work to keep them that accurate. The AR-15 is more accurate, and requres less work to maintain their accuracy.

The extra power of the .30-06 and .308 is an advantage, mostly when you are trying to penetrate cover.

If I had to choose one rifle for combat, it would be an AR-15 or M-16.
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 10:36:15 PM EST
Doesn't the velocity of a .308 (150grs.+) bullet from a gas powered rifle with a 22" barrel transcend from supersonic to subsonic at around 850 yards, causing the bullets to become destabalized (something to do with "ballistic coefficient"). If this is true, then wouldn't a bolt gun be the way to go? I swore I read somewhere, maybe on this board, that the vast majority of M1A's that are used for 1000yd target shooting have their gas ports adjusted to allow less gas to the piston in order to prevent the op rod from being bent out of spec from hotter 168gr(?) handloads, which are loaded to retain supersonic velocities past 900 yards.

Is any of this true, or have I been misinformed?
Link Posted: 10/25/2001 7:17:30 AM EST
Don't do it! Older M1A's had Springfield receivers and all other parts were GI. The GI parts have dried up alot and they now have a lot of non-GI parts. Besides that the AR 15 is a better weapon. I have never talked to anyone who used an M 14 in VN who liked it except one guy. Others complained about the stocks soaking up water like a sponge, shooting the flash hider off in the rain, and the weight of the gun and mags. You will never be shooting at folks at 800 or 1K yards. A man appears to be a speck at these ranges and the wind makes a hell of a difference out there. You need a light rifle that will hit out to 300 with mags that aren't so heavy. You have that rifle.
Link Posted: 10/25/2001 7:39:33 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/25/2001 8:04:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/25/2001 8:03:38 AM EST by cnatra]
Dude, keep the AR & save up for the M1A !!

You should consider an DSA FAL too.

If you really want to reach out & touch someone
get a Remington PSS in 300WinMag or 300RemUltra
& have that as your long range "sniper" rifle & keep the AR by your side for 500yrds or less.

You could always get a SAKO in .338 Lapua
Link Posted: 10/25/2001 8:11:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By mtnpatriot:

Also, the M1A is a LOT easier to clean IMHO.

Libertas an Mortis!



REALLY???

I think my AR's are much easier to clean than
my M1A.
Link Posted: 10/25/2001 8:20:47 AM EST
Keep the AR. I have an AR-15, M-14 and M-1. Picking a favorite is hard to choose, like picking your favorite child but I shoot the M-14 most often. If I didn't have an M-14 I wouldn't sell my AR to get one. As for one shot kills, it's all in the shot placement and an AR is much easier to shoot accurately in a rapid fire situation than an M-14. It is true that the M-14 will reach out and touch em as well as penetrate covers that the AR-15 won't.
Link Posted: 10/25/2001 11:00:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/25/2001 10:58:26 AM EST by SouthernShark]

Originally Posted By cnatra:
REALLY???

I think my AR's are much easier to clean than
my M1A.



REALLY!!! The M1A is the easiest gun to clean that I own. Its even easier than an AK. You just pull back on the loop which surrounds the trigger, then pull the fire control parts out. After that you just pop the furniture off and rub it down. It takes me about 10 - 15 seconds to totally break mine down. It takes a little longer if I'm removing the gas tube, but that is not necessary most of the time. Even if I do remove the gas tube its not hard to do (easier than on most other guns that I own).

If you think its hard, all I can say is that I'm "not sure what you are smoking....." Are you sure that you own an M1A and not something else????? I guess that if it is glass beaded then it might be a pain in the ass to break down. But that's why I avoid the high end stuff and went with the standard model.


As for the debate AR v/s M1A, I can't help you because I really don't care. If I were in some kind of SHTF situation, I'd grab one of my AKs......


-SS
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