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Posted: 10/6/2001 9:30:33 AM EDT
CUT and pasted from subguns.com

NRA-ILA FAX Alert Vol. 8, No. 40

Date:

Fri, 5 Oct 2001 17:02:09 -0400

From:

"nraila-evc-alert"

To:

"nraila-evc-alert"

NRA-ILA FAX ALERT

11250 Waples Mill Road Fairfax, VA 22030
Vol. 8, No. 40 Phone: (800) 392-8683 Fax:
(703) 267-3918 www.NRAILA.org 10/5/01

CONGRESS CONSIDERS "DEMILITARIZATION" REQUIREMENT

This week, the U.S. Senate passed S. 1438, the Department of Defense
(DoD) annual authorization bill, which contains a provision that is of
grave concern to hunters and sport shooters. Section 1062 of this bill
provides the Secretary of Defense with the authority to require
"demilitarization" of any "significant military equipment" that has ever
been owned by the DoD. This would include all firearms (such as the
venerable M1, M1 Carbine, and Model 1911, as well as all Civilian
Marksmanship Program rifles, even "sporterized" surplus bolt-action
Springfields!), firearm barrels, ammunition, and gun powder.
"Demilitarization" is the term for rendering such items permanently
inoperable, and Sec. 1062 allows for this action to be carried out
either by the owner or a third party, with the owner paying the cost, or
by the DoD. However, if the DoD determines it should perform the
demilitarization, it can also determine that the cost of returning the
demilled item is prohibitive, then simply keep the item, and reimburse
the owner only for the fair market scrap value of the item.

Furthermore, this new authority would require private citizens to
determine for themselves if an item they own is subject to
demilitarization, and face criminal penalties for non-compliance. The
DoD would be under no obligation to notify law-abiding citizens that
items they have lawfully owned for years, and perhaps that their
families have owned for generations, are suddenly subject to forced
demilitarization. This becomes extremely significant when one considers
that U.S. military surplus has been regularly-and legally-bought, sold,
and traded for centuries. Countless Americans own items that could be
subject to Sec. 1062. It is likely millions of law-abiding Americans
would be affected, and could unknowingly become criminals overnight
without having done anything or having ever been informed.

The DoD already has the authority and responsibility to demilitarize any
item it sells as surplus, so there is absolutely no reason to seek new
authority to confiscate and destroy lawfully sold and lawfully owned
items that are now the property of private citizens. Be sure to
contact your U.S. Senators at (202) 224-3121, and your U.S.
Representative at (202) 225-3121, and urge them to strike Sec. 1062 from
S. 1438, the "National Defense Authorization Act for FY 2002." The 24
members of the Senate Armed Services Committee and the 60 members of the
House Armed Services Committee especially need to hear from you. To find
out if any of your lawmakers are on either committee, you can use the
"Write Your Reps" tool found at NRAILA.org, or call the Grassroots
Division at (800) 392-8683.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 12:16:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 12:17:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 12:22:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 1:19:33 PM EDT
I posted about this a couple weeks ago and tried to get it tacked, it stayed tacked for about 15 minutes and was taken down.... somebody doesn't want this to be a priority here.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 1:28:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 1:41:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raf:
Mods, PLEASE tack this important post.



Good luck.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 1:57:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 2:16:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
I posted about this a couple weeks ago and tried to get it tacked, it stayed tacked for about 15 minutes and was taken down.... somebody doesn't want this to be a priority here.



Why the heck not? BTT anyhow....
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 2:24:00 PM EDT
http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm

Go here, put in you info, it will send the emails to the right people... Come on, it does not take that long.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 2:58:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raf:
Let's see if I can't make my own luck.



Well I'll be dammed... maybe they just don't like me.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 3:09:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 3:10:42 PM EDT
when you write your reps i strongly recommend using the the language in the NRA alert. particularly:


...this new authority would require private citizens to
determine for themselves if an item they own is subject to
demilitarization, and face criminal penalties for non-compliance. The
DoD would be under no obligation to notify law-abiding citizens that
items they have lawfully owned for years, and perhaps that their
families have owned for generations, are suddenly subject to forced
demilitarization. This becomes extremely significant when one considers
that U.S. military surplus has been regularly-and legally-bought, sold,
and traded for centuries. Countless Americans own items that could be
subject to Sec. 1062. It is likely millions of law-abiding Americans
would be affected, and could unknowingly become criminals overnight
without having done anything or having ever been informed.

The DoD already has the authority and responsibility to demilitarize any
item it sells as surplus, so there is absolutely no reason to seek new
authority to confiscate and destroy lawfully sold and lawfully owned
items that are now the property of private citizens.



these two sections underscore the futility and redundancy in this section of S. 1438. and while politicians aren't famous for using common sense, a few might be in the mood for handling logic and foresight.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 3:10:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 4:00:52 PM EDT
After reading, email your senators/congressmen, THEN FOLLOW UP WITH EITHER PHONE CALLS ON MONDAY OR SNAIL MAIL. POST THIS ALSO TO OTHER BOARDS THAT YOU KNOW OF. I already mailed mine to two senators and two representatives, before the post office closed this morning.

Many thanks.

Link Posted: 10/6/2001 4:06:07 PM EDT
i higly reccomend taking the time to HAND WRITE/TYPE a regular snail mail letter it tends to have alot more impact then a bulk/pre written e-mail/letter

becouse it shows that you wnet out of your way t write instread of click click send or just signnig your name and sending it off
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 5:15:38 PM EDT
The Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) was concerned about this affecting thousands of warbird owners. The following was in the AOPA ePilot, Vol.3, Issue 41 dated 10/05/01. It addresses only the aircraft subject, but it appears that Senator Craig had the entire thing removed. It would be nice if someone smarter than me could find out. SENATOR'S ACTION SAVES WARBIRDS
When it was introduced on the Senate floor Tuesday, the National Defense
Authorization Act for 2002 carried a section that hung like the shadow of a
bomber over warbird pilots and other owners of declassified military
equipment. The provision, section 1062 of Senate bill 1438, would have
made it unlawful for individuals to possess "significant military equipment"
and allowed for seizure of the equipment by the attorney general. Sen. Larry
Craig (R-Idaho) proposed the removal of the section, saying "it would create
tens of thousands of lawbreakers overnight." Warbird displays in museums
and airshows would have become illegal, and a large portion of the United
States' aviation history would have been removed from the public. The bill,
which included important anti-terrorism programs, passed without the
warbird section, according to Craig's office.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 5:24:03 PM EDT
sad
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 5:32:51 PM EDT
this has not passed the house yet
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 5:37:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JC:
http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm

Go here, put in you info, it will send the emails to the right people... Come on, it does not take that long.



They don't even look at email.
They figure a handwritten letter represents 1000 voters.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 6:53:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bearlaker:

Originally Posted By JC:
http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm

Go here, put in you info, it will send the emails to the right people... Come on, it does not take that long.



They don't even look at email.
They figure a handwritten letter represents 1000 voters.



Well, they might not where you live but they do here in Indiana, I have a dozen or so replies from them... And besides, you can print the letter out and fax/mail it if yours does not.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 8:35:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 8:57:45 PM EDT
I am putting a letter to all my reps in the mail on monday. Which I would have seen this soon enough to get them out today!!!


My next step is a letter to Bush begging for a line item of that puppy.

Write your congressmen now!! It passed the Senate, lets make sure it does not make it past the House!!
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 9:53:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 10:27:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 10:30:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2001 10:25:04 PM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 12:02:59 AM EDT
I heard about this from the airshow circuit.
Seems that if this goes through, it may mean
the end of "warbirds" at the airshows around
the country too. That means, no P-51 Mustangs,
F8F Bearcats, F4U Corsairs, B-25 Mitchells,
A-26 Invaders, B-17 Flying Fortresses or anything
that has been restored. The Confederate Air Force
restored a B-29 Superfortress in 1970 to flying
condition. They've spent thousands of donated
dollars maintaining it. Last year, it ("FiFi") blew
an engine on take off. It cost $75K to replace it
and you can bet not a friggin' dime came from
the DoD to fix it. It's a screwed up law and you can
bet it originated from some liberal asshole that
doesn't have a fQWERTYU clue about anything.
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 4:19:04 AM EDT
Sent and fwd-ed.


I hope you will NOT support the authorization bill for the Department of Defense (S. 1438), as long as Section 1062 of the bill remains in its current form.

This section would allow the Department of Defense to confiscate militaria that is lawfully owned by private citizens and could require the destruction of guns in honest citizens' hands -- guns such as the M1 Carbine, 1903 Springfield, Colt SAA, and more. Please make sure this gun grab is fixed before you vote on it.

Guns in private hands are not a threat to the security of this nation. At a time when we are declaring a war on terrorism, we should not also wage war against veterans and gun owners who live peacefully within our borders. The government should be working with its citizens, not against them, to meet this terrorist threat.I would note that the only plane which did not reach its intended target on September 11 was United Airlines' Flight 93, where private citizens (not the government) intervened.

Please do not vote against the veterans and gun owners of this country. Please do not support S. 1438 with Section 1062 in its current form. Thank you.


Link Posted: 10/7/2001 5:06:40 AM EDT
Why the hell is anyone considering this de-mil action? Disarmament is no longer a question, only "when" is the question. I just don't understand why.
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 6:02:51 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 6:21:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JC:

Originally Posted By Bearlaker:

Originally Posted By JC:
http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm

Go here, put in you info, it will send the emails to the right people... Come on, it does not take that long.



They don't even look at email.
They figure a handwritten letter represents 1000 voters.



Well, they might not where you live but they do here in Indiana, I have a dozen or so replies from them... And besides, you can print the letter out and fax/mail it if yours does not.



Congrats on having responsive congress critters.
I always print these thing out and mail them.
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 4:48:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Garryowen:

GW can still line item this if the pressure is on....



I know Reagan always wanted it, but the President has never been given line item veto power, has he? As far as I know, it's still standard tactics to tack little anti-gun amendments onto "must pass" legislation.

"War is the health of the state."
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 5:03:06 PM EDT
Here's what I sent yesterday, with a twist to appeal to my basically anti-gun representatives:


>>October 6, 2001

[recipient address was inserted here]


[recipient name was inserted here],

I understand that S.1438, which has already passed the Senate, contains
language that would allow federal officials to confiscate from private
owners and then demilitarize or destroy any article of military equipment
that was ever owned by the U.S. government.

I don't know if everyone in the Senate is asleep or what, but this sure
seems to me like a terrible violation of the basic right of citizens to
legally own personal property. I could somewhat understand if Congress
wanted to set new guidelines for future sales of surplus military
equipment, but to be reaching back and snatching out of museums and
private collections historic artifacts that have been legally in private
hands for decades is totally wrong. It would be both unjust to the current
owners and also a tragic loss of history almost comparable to the
Taliban's blowing up ancient Buddhist statues in Afghanistan.

I hope you will look into this matter and take action to prevent it from
becoming law.<<


Notice I didn't bother mentioning guns, which would be a sure ticket to Sen. Levin's trash can. Actually I do contact my elected rats about gun issues often enough that they know they aren't going to get away with anything easily, but sometimes it's better to be sneaky.
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 5:32:11 PM EDT
What we need to do is research... Who is the one responsible for putting this thing in the first place? It was carefully drafted to allow DOD to declair war on gun owners.

We need to find out who put it in and why.
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 6:19:09 PM EDT
I looked at the information of the bill on thomas.loc.gov and it appears that the bill was sponsored by Senator Carl Levin a demorat.
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 4:03:43 AM EDT
EMAIL THIS TO RUSH LIMBAUGH!!

Benjamin
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 4:14:04 AM EDT
Jesus, Why are democrats so ANTI AMERICA. Hell that is an act of terrorism in itself.

CARL LEVIN , WHAT A F*&*IN COMMUNIST!

_______________________________
"Democrats?; THEY ARE SNEAKY BASTARDS SIR!"


Link Posted: 10/8/2001 4:20:33 PM EDT
Wekerpood
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 5:03:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/8/2001 5:00:26 PM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
I was told today, by a trusted friend who runs an air museum and is fighting this very hard, that this language was put in by a Republican no less......


Anyone know how to check and see?
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 5:04:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sweep:

Originally Posted By raf:
Please leave my devastatingly good looks out of this. G_S led the way.



Yes, G_S does deserve the credit and my apologies to G_S!

G_S, aint it beotch when the pretty ones get all the credit!?



The story of my life...................
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 5:34:05 PM EDT
Well, I wrote Senator Cleland. I got an email from NRA saying he was on a committee that will be reviewing this bill. Now I hear that it has already passed the Senate? Could he be on a joint committee that will resolve the two different versions of the bill? I certainly hope it isn't too late. If this passes into law without being altered, then our government will become the enemy while trying to defeat the enemy.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 7:45:39 AM EDT
Here's my leter:



I am writing in requesting your assistance as a member of the House Armed Services Committee..

Senate bill 1438, the DoD annual appropriations bill includes what I find to be an EXTREMELY objectionable element, namely Sec. 1062, which allows for the “demilitarization” of any “significant military equipment.”

In brief, this Section of the annual appropriations bill would allow for the seizure and destruction of countless firearms which tens of thousands of collectors have painstakingly collected and restored throughout the years, including the M1, M1 Carbine, and even the Springfield rifle, to name only the most well known.

For their owners, these rifles represent everything from family heritage, to the supreme sacrifice a man can give for his nation. Not to mention a significant financial cost to acquire and restore these firearms, many of which are simply irreplaceable.

As I understand the legislation, the DoD need only reimburse the legal, rightful owner the scrap value of the items, which would not even approximate 1/20 of the fair market value.

These are NOT even the unfairly maligned so-called “assault weapons.” These are collectors items, many of which their value as collectors items preclude them from being fired. But the vast majority are simple working historical pieces of art, which collectors have paid a fair price, only now to fear losing them to an arbitrary decision of some Washington bureaucrat. And that is not even to mention the violation of the Second Amendment as Attorney General Ashcroft has so eloquently communicated it.

I find this to be a matter of utmost urgency. Please give it your sincere attention.

Sincerely,

garandman
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 2:27:37 PM EDT
Maybe we mis-understood S1438, the Senate unanimously passed this bill:

Yea.....100
Nay.......0

www.senate.gov/legislative/vote1071/vote_00289.html

Wouldn't one Senator vote Nay?
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 2:52:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2001 2:48:53 PM EDT by Gloftoe]
I was reading the text of S.1438, and found this in "SEC. 1062. AUTHORITY TO ENSURE DEMILITARIZATION OF SIGNIFICANT MILITARY EQUIPMENT FORMERLY OWNED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE.":

(f) DEFINITION OF SIGNIFICANT MILITARY EQUIPMENT- In this section, the term `significant military equipment' means equipment that has a capability described in clause (i) or (ii) of subsection (e)(2) and--

(1) is a defense article listed on the United States Munitions List maintained under section 38 of the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2778) that is designated on that list as significant military equipment; or

(2) is designated by the Secretary of Defense under the regulations prescribed under subsection (e) as being equipment that it is necessary in the interest of public safety to demilitarize before disposal by the United States.

USGI Mags and such aren't on the US Munitions list, are they? Actual firearms, ammunition, etc. are I think. I found this, but I don't know if its right either:

www.fas.org/spp/starwars/offdocs/itar/p121.htm#ITAR

Looks like things like Garands could be targeted, but I'm really confused. It also looks like cartridge casings would be considered as well. What, they'll make you cut up any LC brass that you have? Anyone else know anything else about this? Help, because this issue is really fvucking troubling.

-Gloftoe

Link Posted: 10/9/2001 2:57:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2001 2:53:26 PM EDT by Gloftoe]
Heh. On the munitions list, I found this too:

"§ 121.9 -- Firearms.
(a) Category I includes revolvers, pistols, rifles, carbines, fully automatic rifles, submachine guns, machine pistols and machine guns to caliber .50, inclusive. It includes combat shotguns. It excludes other shotguns with barrels 18 seconds or longer, BB, pellet, and muzzle loading (black powder) firearms."

Barrels 18 seconds or longer? What in the HELL does that mean?

-Gloftoe
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 3:47:02 PM EDT
I thought Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho) had this demil section 1062 removed before the vote on the rest of the bill. Hopefully someone brighter than me can locate this information. If this is true, we need to thank Sen. Craig. We also need to find out who keeps trying to sneak this thing through and put a stop to it. This is not the first time this exact same thing was introduced to try to make it law.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 9:22:10 PM EDT
Even if it passed the senate, which I believe it has, it has NOT passed the house. Make sure you right your congressmen as well as your senators!!


My guess it was passed 100% 'cuz it got tacked onto what was needed to fight this war.


Write Write Write guys.

All it takes for evil to win a few good men to do nothing!
Link Posted: 10/10/2001 4:36:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2001 4:35:00 AM EDT by MG_ME]
Just think about all that history being cut to pieaces! this country is just plain fucked up!
there using this bombing has a tool to get anti
-gun shit passed! BULLLSHIT. i do feel for those
warbirds guys! if it wasnt for those planes, if it wasnt for those M1 garands or springfields we
would be speaking german now.
Link Posted: 10/10/2001 6:15:34 AM EDT
Should I be writing a letter to all of the reps. from IL.???
Link Posted: 10/10/2001 7:59:14 AM EDT
Done. Letters off. Each letter to them represents 1000 voters.
Link Posted: 10/10/2001 10:45:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By erocki:
Should I be writing a letter to all of the reps. from IL.???




It couldn't hurt. But please do write YOUR representative. It is very very important that they hear from every last one of us!!
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