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Posted: 3/26/2017 4:39:40 PM EDT
[#1]
What does .22 TCM do that .223 can't?
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Posted: 3/26/2017 5:12:05 PM EDT
[#2]
Fits in a 1911 sized pistol.
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Posted: 3/26/2017 6:41:36 PM EDT
[#3]
It also is in essence a modern 22 hornet which is very efficient with powder and can be loaded from 22 CB velocities with cast bullets and a grain or two of pistol powder. on up to full power hornet loads which are typically good enough out to 300yds for varmints with a quieter report, less powder usage, and zero recoil.
as for 22tcm in a .223 based gun it should be as easy as shortening the barrel, rechamber, and thread and set a new shoulder or run a barrel nut. feeding from a magazine will be unknown untill tried. if your luck a spacer in the back with a shortened follower and use long bullets like the 40gr v-max i'm trying a similar concept with a wildcat around the same size/capacity as the tcm but on the savage action. I plan to single feed as I hear the short cases will fall of the bolt before clearing the ejection port. |
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Posted: 3/26/2017 10:08:50 PM EDT
[#4]
Existing pistol magazine should work w/ a 9x19mm blowback bolt set up for Glock mags. You'll have to craft a custom mag block, however.
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Posted: 3/28/2017 6:22:07 PM EDT
[#5]
Get a mag block from Rhineland Arms for their 45acp Mauser conversion.
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Posted: 3/29/2017 10:28:14 PM EDT
[#6]
To me it looks like an interesting 22 magnum powered cartridge that is reloadable. Decent power and low recoil from a pistol, and moderate power from a rifle. A niche caliber to be sure, but most likely a fun cartridge to shoot. It would probably get over 550 foot pound of energy from a 16" carbine AR, possibly more since max velocity is achieved in a short barrel length.
But definitely a niche caliber that does what it does. The stubby case will not permit someone to load bullets much more than the 40 grain factory load. Don't bother trying to load a 55 grain and take this round out to 200 yards or more, that's what the 223 is for! A minimal blast and recoil cartridge that will dispatch most all small game from a rifle. I wish it were more popular and widely available. It would make a neat round to run through an AR using 9mm magazines. For the bolt action rifle, here are the stats: 40 grain bullet, 2800 fps = 696 fpe from a 22" rifle barrel |
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Posted: 4/4/2017 8:50:02 PM EDT
[#7]
I know you said you have a 22tcm already but, if I wanted something that mild mannered I would buy a Cz 527 mini mauser action chambered for the 221 fire ball.
Or hornet or 17 hornet or 223 or x39 or 204 or Grendel. I looked at the 22tcm carbine and was also not impressed. Not as unimpressed as I was when the hammer broke off my 9mm/tcm combo though. |
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Posted: 4/6/2017 7:17:11 PM EDT
[#8]
Armscor makes a 22tcm bolt action rifle that take the pistol mags. Would that not
Be easier than trying to convert a ruger? |
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Posted: 4/6/2017 7:58:49 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Armscor makes a 22tcm bolt action rifle that take the pistol mags. Would that not Be easier than trying to convert a ruger? |
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Posted: 4/6/2017 8:12:26 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It also is in essence a modern 22 hornet which is very efficient with powder and can be loaded from 22 CB velocities with cast bullets and a grain or two of pistol powder. on up to full power hornet loads which are typically good enough out to 300yds for varmints with a quieter report, less powder usage, and zero recoil. as for 22tcm in a .223 based gun it should be as easy as shortening the barrel, rechamber, and thread and set a new shoulder or run a barrel nut. feeding from a magazine will be unknown untill tried. if your luck a spacer in the back with a shortened follower and use long bullets like the 40gr v-max i'm trying a similar concept with a wildcat around the same size/capacity as the tcm but on the savage action. I plan to single feed as I hear the short cases will fall of the bolt before clearing the ejection port. As an ultra cheap load - The Lyman @225438 mold is a 44gr. RNL-GC bullet that is perfect for the 22 TCM and when using Red Dot or Green Dot powder should only need 2.5-5.5gr so not counting brass, this round would be cheaper to reload than 9mm x 19 providing 22WMR performance for less than 22LR prices. |
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Posted: 4/6/2017 11:01:08 PM EDT
[#11]
I helped a guy zero a brand new TCM. Price on the hang tag was $389. It's a close copy of a Kimber Of Oregon model 82 center fire. Fit, finish and build quality were on par with other wood stocked bead blast matte blued bolt action hunting rifles in the $400 to $500 range.
His accuracy was just under 2 inches for 10 5 shot groups at 100 yd with factory ammo fired from a new rifle by an average shooter. Recoil was nill and muzzle report was very mild. The bolt was snug to lift and smooth to throw. Extraction, ejection and feeding were 100% Guesstimated trigger pull felt like 3.0 3.5 pounds and crisp. Ballisticly it's a match for the .22 Hornet or .22 K-Hornet according to available data. The cases form factor of short, fat and sharp shoulder should give it decent chances of inherent accuracy. The TCM being 5.56 based should have a thicker web and case walls than similar capacity traditional cases. Operating at the same modest pressures of the .22 Hornet instead of the 60,000+ psi of it's NATO parent cartridge, the cases should last for many firings. I may get one for predator control or I may get one as a poor mans Kimber. Running the OBT and other numbers through Quick Load tonight. |
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Posted: 4/6/2017 11:05:19 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I plan to just chop my Savage Axis 223 barrel at the chamber end and set it back a bit and touch up the chamber with the proper reamer. As to feeding I will use a mag block insert and a Tok 7.62x25 pistol magazine which will allow using full 55grain FMJBT's As an ultra cheap load - The Lyman @225438 mold is a 44gr. RNL-GC bullet that is perfect for the 22 TCM and when using Red Dot or Green Dot powder should only need 2.5-5.5gr so not counting brass, this round would be cheaper to reload than 9mm x 19 providing 22WMR performance for less than 22LR prices. |
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Posted: 4/7/2017 11:06:13 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I plan to just chop my Savage Axis 223 barrel at the chamber end and set it back a bit and touch up the chamber with the proper reamer. As to feeding I will use a mag block insert and a Tok 7.62x25 pistol magazine which will allow using full 55grain FMJBT's As an ultra cheap load - The Lyman @225438 mold is a 44gr. RNL-GC bullet that is perfect for the 22 TCM and when using Red Dot or Green Dot powder should only need 2.5-5.5gr so not counting brass, this round would be cheaper to reload than 9mm x 19 providing 22WMR performance for less than 22LR prices. interesting you mentioned the TOK mag. I'm also chambering a AR barrel for the catridge and a ppsh 43 mag is the first I plan on trying. oh on a side note with the savage action you'll also have to add manual a case ejector somehow or the cartidge will fall off the bolt before clearing the ejection port as it's so short. I personally plan to single feed and removed the ejector and will pluck the cases off by hand. the flexability is what appealed to me as well. you could load cast bullets from CB levels on up to full power hornet loads with jacketed bullets. and for cheap! |
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Posted: 4/8/2017 2:28:47 AM EDT
[#14]
Yes I noted I would have to extend the barrel threads and noted also on the light weight AXIS 223 they start tapering under the barrel nut. Not sure where it will get down to 50% or actual pitch dia. Worst case I will just have to sleeve it, or start with a fresh barrel blank.
While I have the 223 barrel off I'm also going to make up a 300 Blackout barrel. 
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Posted: 4/8/2017 11:23:23 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes I noted I would have to extend the barrel threads and noted also on the light weight AXIS 223 they start tapering under the barrel nut. Not sure where it will get down to 50% or actual pitch dia. Worst case I will just have to sleeve it, or start with a fresh barrel blank. While I have the 223 barrel off I'm also going to make up a 300 Blackout barrel. do you rent or buy your reamers? |
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Posted: 4/8/2017 10:24:45 PM EDT
[#16]
I often buy common cartridge reamers, but I like to rent reams with both guages so I can set final headspace all at the same time.
Wildcats I cheat. I program them for CNC lathe and make them from drill rod. Cheap quick & dirty I use W1 but oil quench and IMMEDIATELY start tempering because W1 will sometimes just stress crack sitting on the table after heat treat. I also use 01 and A2. Unfortunately I moved my CNC lathe from my old business address to my shop out here on the ranch. Electric company engineer approved the install of the max size transformer they allow, which has been completed. The rub is he figured it would cost me $5800 to get power to the machine. After getting contractor quotes I found out he left out a few things... and the final cost will be about $19,000. That is way over budget, so that project is on hold until I can find a way to finance that without putting too much strain on other operations. |
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Posted: 4/10/2017 9:16:26 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I often buy common cartridge reamers, but I like to rent reams with both guages so I can set final headspace all at the same time. Wildcats I cheat. I program them for CNC lathe and make them from drill rod. Cheap quick & dirty I use W1 but oil quench and IMMEDIATELY start tempering because W1 will sometimes just stress crack sitting on the table after heat treat. I also use 01 and A2. Unfortunately I moved my CNC lathe from my old business address to my shop out here on the ranch. Electric company engineer approved the install of the max size transformer they allow, which has been completed. The rub is he figured it would cost me $5800 to get power to the machine. After getting contractor quotes I found out he left out a few things... and the final cost will be about $19,000. That is way over budget, so that project is on hold until I can find a way to finance that without putting too much strain on other operations. |
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Posted: 4/12/2017 4:21:16 AM EDT
[#18]
I have a existing phase converter for my 2 CNC mills.
The lathe however needs 22KW - and a beefy special phase convert to feed that needs 122A at 220V to handle the 180% starting loads. I've since spent hours on the phone with a few engineers. While there are other convoluted half assed work arounds they don't save any money or time short term and will end up costing much more long term. Best bet is KISS - get the electrical all upgraded properly, and install that uber CNC rated phase converter. The kicker is I could have picked up a Mori Seiki SV50 for a song - But it requires 140KW of 3ph - even if I spent the $60,000 for the phase converter that could handle that level of power, Running the machine at full load might trip the power sub station. 
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Posted: 4/12/2017 5:39:13 PM EDT
[#19]
Is the muzzle energy on a 22TCM low enough that it can be just straight blowback like a 9mm AR-15, or does it need a locked action?
Seems like someone needs to build a Colt MARS clone in 22TCM!
Sven Manticore Arms |
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Posted: 4/12/2017 6:16:03 PM EDT
[#20]
I would assume blowback is possible as it is a handgun cartridge that's used in a browning locked breach action which is in essence a delayed blowback.
the colt mars would be sick! I'm in the middle of a similar project but using full length recievers and ppsh 43 mags with a .223 wildcat that's rougly the same size 1.125" case length however the ppsh mags are going to limit me to 1.35-36 in length. 
The plan is 5-8" barrel, 30-45gr bullets for supersonic and 75-90gr for subsonic suppressed. |
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Posted: 4/12/2017 11:56:48 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is the muzzle energy on a 22TCM low enough that it can be just straight blowback like a 9mm AR-15, or does it need a locked action?
Seems like someone needs to build a Colt MARS clone in 22TCM!
Sven Manticore Arms The FN P90 is mass-delayed blowback, as is the AR57 upper shooting 5.7x28mm, so I expect .22" TCM could be run out of a sufficiently heavy mass-delayed blowback action. |
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Posted: 4/18/2017 12:45:41 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please use the RIA doublestack mag, so we don't have 7 .22" TCM mags running around, w/ 5 of them out of production. Albeit, any .38" Super mag might work. Tok and CZ52 mags might work as well. The FN P90 is mass-delayed blowback, as is the AR57 upper shooting 5.7x28mm, so I expect .22" TCM could be run out of a sufficiently heavy mass-delayed blowback action. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Is the muzzle energy on a 22TCM low enough that it can be just straight blowback like a 9mm AR-15, or does it need a locked action?
Seems like someone needs to build a Colt MARS clone in 22TCM!
Sven Manticore Arms The FN P90 is mass-delayed blowback, as is the AR57 upper shooting 5.7x28mm, so I expect .22" TCM could be run out of a sufficiently heavy mass-delayed blowback action. |
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Posted: 4/18/2017 2:41:28 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If i was to build a 22 tcm version of the Colt MARS it would be a one off that used m1 carbine mags |
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Posted: 4/18/2017 7:22:39 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's fair enough. Isn't someone already running 5.7x28mm out of Carbine mags? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: If i was to build a 22 tcm version of the Colt MARS it would be a one off that used m1 carbine mags |
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Posted: 4/18/2017 8:04:49 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's fair enough. Isn't someone already running 5.7x28mm out of Carbine mags? |
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Posted: 4/18/2017 8:26:03 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The FN P90 is Quote HistoryQuoted:
The FN P90 is Quoted:
browning locked breach action which is in essence a delayed blowback. |
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Posted: 4/19/2017 5:05:46 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
5.7 is nust a bit too long for a carbine mag as i recall 
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Posted: 4/19/2017 9:49:46 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope. FN SS197SR has a good 3/32" from the blue tip to the inside front of the mag. http://www.skullworks.net/include/5_7in30Carb.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
5.7 is nust a bit too long for a carbine mag as i recall http://www.skullworks.net/include/5_7in30Carb.jpg |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 9:32:11 AM EDT
[#29]
I checked and I remember what the issue was now- THe 5.7 will fit in a 30 carbine magazine, but only a single round. The magazine width and feed lip design lets the rounds pop out.
Sven Manticore Arms |
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Posted: 4/20/2017 4:36:29 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I checked and I remember what the issue was now- THe 5.7 will fit in a 30 carbine magazine, but only a single round. The magazine width and feed lip design lets the rounds pop out. Sven Manticore Arms While I was a type 07 FFL for 12 years, I still only claim to be a machinist/tool and die maker more than a 'gun smith'. I still build custom toys for my personal pleasure, but I have never really been in the business of 'fixing' guns. |
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Posted: 5/10/2017 1:11:01 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is the muzzle energy on a 22TCM low enough that it can be just straight blowback like a 9mm AR-15, or does it need a locked action? Seems like someone needs to build a Colt MARS clone in 22TCM!
Sven Manticore Arms To illustrate the point consider the ballistics you get from a 16 inch P90S carbine barrel, with the TCM your getting those from a 5 inch pistol barrel. Imho if you went straight blow back you would need an impractical amount of mass in the bolt and case stretch would be "entertaining" to say the least. Google search re loading the 5.7 case stretch and case lube and all will become clear. There's a vendor that makes and sells 7.62 and .22 TCM uppers and barrels, both variants run like champs, both are D.I. |
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Posted: 5/10/2017 9:30:19 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It will need locked breach and gas operation. It operates at .38 Super pressure levels.
To illustrate the point consider the ballistics you get from a 16 inch P90S carbine barrel, with the TCM your getting those from a 5 inch pistol barrel. Imho if you went straight blow back you would need an impractical amount of mass in the bolt and case stretch would be "entertaining" to say the least. Google search re loading the 5.7 case stretch and case lube and all will become clear. There's a vendor that makes and sells 7.62 and .22 TCM uppers and barrels, both variants run like champs, both are D.I. Quote HistoryQuoted: It will need locked breach and gas operation. It operates at .38 Super pressure levels.
To illustrate the point consider the ballistics you get from a 16 inch P90S carbine barrel, with the TCM your getting those from a 5 inch pistol barrel. Imho if you went straight blow back you would need an impractical amount of mass in the bolt and case stretch would be "entertaining" to say the least. Google search re loading the 5.7 case stretch and case lube and all will become clear. There's a vendor that makes and sells 7.62 and .22 TCM uppers and barrels, both variants run like champs, both are D.I. Otherwise you can shoot .45ACP/.45ACP +P or .45 Super just fine in your .460 Rowland CCU. |
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Posted: 5/10/2017 12:10:35 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It will need locked breach and gas operation. It operates at .38 Super pressure levels. To illustrate the point consider the ballistics you get from a 16 inch P90S carbine barrel, with the TCM your getting those from a 5 inch pistol barrel. Imho if you went straight blow back you would need an impractical amount of mass in the bolt and case stretch would be "entertaining" to say the least. Google search re loading the 5.7 case stretch and case lube and all will become clear. There's a vendor that makes and sells 7.62 and .22 TCM uppers and barrels, both variants run like champs, both are D.I. Which vendor is making 22 TCM uppers? Sven Manticore Arms |
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Posted: 5/10/2017 12:34:03 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which vendor is making 22 TCM uppers? Sven Manticore Arms |
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Posted: 5/10/2017 12:35:47 PM EDT
[#35]
Well, the mag well issue will soon be solved:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_15/713321_The-NEW-Nordic-Components-Modular-PCC.html |
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Posted: 5/10/2017 12:36:34 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
MechTech's .460 upper for the 1911 is simple blowback. |
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Posted: 5/10/2017 12:37:55 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, the mag well issue will soon be solved: |
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Posted: 5/14/2017 2:45:29 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Macon Armory for one, don't know if that's who B44t is referring to or not. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Which vendor is making 22 TCM uppers? Sven Manticore Arms Thank you I was unaware. I was thinking of this guy. http://thearguy.com/ http://thearguy.com/products-page/di-gas-operated-barrels There is a thread by an arfcommer on his TCM build from this guy, if I can find it. It uses a magwell adapter and feeds from standard PPS mags. |
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