It used to be 5.56 until a SCAR 17 fell out of the sky and into my lap.  Go to is now .30hate.

Go to for what? If I am bugging out and taking to the WV hills I am taking a .22lr.

Still don't see how a. SA sg with 10 rd is better than a krink 762 with 75 rd drum filled with AP ammo or standard ammo. Or DSA OSW in 308 with 30 or 50 rd drum.  Both  rifles are shorter and will give u more penetration. Also more ammo and easier to reload.  Maybe a saiga 12 ga would be better but still less rounds and 12 ga won't have as much penetration.  Plus if the SHTF the sg is limited in range

If you don't have it, your not going to is how I see the question.



5.45x39 for rifles and carbines.

9x19 for handguns and pistol caliber carbines.





I'm really low on 9mm though.

It would be lighter.  

You're in a house. It's not like I have to carry it around for miles.  Weight here isn't much of an issue.  A krink isn't that heavy.   So a sg can do the job but you're at a disadvantage compared to rifle

No offense, but have you actually handled all these guns? He's probably commenting on the fact that even a fully-loaded 12-gauge is going to be light as a feather and maneuverable in comparison to the handling of a FAL clone with a 50-round 7.62 NATO drum or a Krinkov with a 75-round 7.62 commie drum. That .308 you're theorizing about is going to be a 15-pound brick. The Krinkov is going to be north of 10-pounds as well with almost half the weight fighting you from the magwell. If I was going to pick an ideal long arm to clear a home with, both of those in those configurations would be close to dead last for what I'd reach for.

A fully loaded, say, M4 Super90 or M590a1 are not lightweights but they will handle indoors with complete ease in comparison to those weapons. If I'm going to use .308, give me something maneuverable with good balance that keeps it under 10 pounds with a 20-round PMAG like an SR-25 carbine, or for a more realistic budget, an LE901. Those I'd reach for no problem as they're lightweight and handle like a dream.

Also, why are you worried about penetration? 000 buck, 00 buck, and even #1 buck have no problems whatsoever hitting the FBI-recommended 12+ inches at normal engagement ranges. There's been plenty of testing of that including by our own Old_Painless. Slugs will even do it at long (for a shotgun) range.

I have a SCAR-17 leaning against my nightstand because I hate my neighbors and love tinnitus. EEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...






















Just kidding...Benelli M4 and G17 FTW....

Yeah... I've got very mild tinnitus from ear infections when I was really young. I don't need any more, thanks. I also fired a .243 Win unprotected under a low aluminum roof when I was a kid at my grandparents' farm trying to get a coyote to stay away from the chickens. I flashbanged myself without the flash; holy frigging hell. I got real friendly with ear pro after that and always have been since. Rifle rounds indoors with no ear pro are no joke, especially from a short barrel.

None taken. And I own a DSA OSW as well a AKs and 75 rd drums. Including German AP 762x39 ammo as well as 308 AP ammo. I would take my 2 foot long 308 cal OSW w 30 rd mag in CQB any day over a sg. Or my ak w 30 40 rd mag or 75 rd drum. If I were in a vehicle doing psd or clearing a home I would not go w a sg as my primary weapon when I have the option of a shorter weapon that is easier to load and has more rounds. Again I have never seen a swat team in the US use the sg as a primary weapon other than to breach the door. And I have never seen SOF in the US use them as their primary weapon either when clearing a home. .  Maybe they are doing something wrong

So what you are saying is we should all do what you do and what you say the rest of the professionals are doing.   Do I have that right?  Somehow a shotgun sucks at killing people cuz you say so and nobody in SWAT or the Military is doing that.  Ever.  Never.  

Got it.  I'll just leave this pic with you.  I'm not saying it proves anything.  But I'm pretty sure I've read enough accounts of combat to know that some dudes used a shotgun in a deadly force scenario.  And lived to tell about it.  I never get this whole, (because this is the BEST, the rest is crap, thinking)  Plus what you say the best is just that (I personally would not choose any of the ones you just mentioned).   Obviously you make pertinent points and there are reasons that shotguns aren't necessarily the first thing to grab for a lot of people.  But c'mon, a dude that knows what he's doing and trains with it, is going to be deadly with it (like any gun that is capable of killing someone).  It has it's upsides.  And yes, being on the lighter side of things has it's advantages.  IMHO.  Of course it makes recoil a bit more of a challenge which also can be tamed with managed recoil rounds.  But I think Frost has made plenty of good points too, which seem to just go right over your head like it's completely invalid.  So, whatever, that's your prerogative.  

I have seen mossberg 5901 sg in Afghanistan but that still doesn't mean it's a better weapon for clearing or CQB. Will it work yes is it the best option no. That's what I'm saying. And a rifle like scar or krink or other rifle is better imo based on the professionals I have seen.

You're probably right.  I personally think calling it foolish was a bit, maybe over the top.  But I've already made that clear and the fact is all I've ever killed are stuff that wasn't shooting back at me.  So...  I have no first hand experience.   I would feel good with one as a HD gun though.   Even if it's not the BEST option out there.  I don't think the ones you listed are necessarily the BEST either. But to each his own.

ETA:  My brother in law is from Mobile and he had said he had a buddy that got caught in all the flooding recently in Louisiana.  He claims he was sort of stranded on the rooftop and there were water moccasin's all over the place and trying to come up on the rooftop with him.  But he had his shotgun and apparently kept them at bay.  I realize that is a very specific situation.  

But I could see where a dude might find himself in a situation that he might go, dang I wish I had a shotgun.  Like if he needed to shoot some birds for food or something like that.  With this flooding scenario, I would think it was a good idea over a carbine or something.  If the very least you'd want a gun where the sights aren't so far offset, shooting at small targets like that.  

At the same time you might find yourself in a scenario where you'd want to shoot a deer 500 yards away and only have a shotgun.  What I find least likely is a scenario where you are pumping hordes of people full of lead.  Like a walking dead episode.  But it seems like that's what people most like to be prepared for.  Which is what you kind of alluded to.

I'm not saying the rifles I picked are the best ones. I'm saying a sa rifle is better than a sg based on what most experts use and my knowledge.  And isn't it foolish to protect your home and family with a weapon less effective if you could have a better one?  If I were to pick a sg it would be a reliable compact sg with 20 rd mag. And even then I'd still take a rifle

In a SHTF scenario it's still better to have an AR in 223 with 22 conversion. U can take small and larger game. CQB and longer range. And much better for combat.  The sg would only be better for birds and very large animals. There is a place for sg. But it isn't as effective or versatile. There will be fewer time u will say I wish I had a sg than u would say I wish I had an AR. Especially when u have a bunch of thugs w guns trying to loot your store or take your food.  I think it would be prudent to have at least a rifle sg and 22 for any SHTF scenario. But if I had to chose one    I'd take the ar w 22 conversion

I see you arguing repeatedly against people using their shotgun as their primary weapon in a SHTF scenario.

The thing is I can't find anyone in the thread saying they'd do that.

ETA: My brother in law is from Mobile and he had said he had a buddy that got caught in all the flooding recently in Louisiana. He claims he was sort of stranded on the rooftop and there were water moccasin's all over the place and trying to come up on the rooftop with him. But he had his shotgun and apparently kept them at bay. I realize that is a very specific situation.

But I could see where a dude might find himself in a situation that he might go, dang I wish I had a shotgun. Like if he needed to shoot some birds for food or something like that. With this flooding scenario, I would think it was a good idea over a carbine or something. If the very least you'd want a gun where the sights aren't so far offset, shooting at small targets like that.

That's from the post above.  I guess u don't think that's a survival SHTF scenario but I do

A single shot 12 ga with GaugeMate adapters would be interesting.  They're chamber inserts that allow you to chamber other calibers.

I'll take the odds that a home invasion will not have bad guys toting the armament you describe.  Bad guys want your stuff and want to be able to carry it out.  There is a 99% statistical certainty they will have only handguns and not wearing body armor. The others will have a stolen AR or AK they have little familiarity with.  My superior knowledge of terrain and location of friendlies and limited defensive objectives make the sa tactical shotgun with extended mag and momentary on weapon light a reasonable choice in that environment.

Yes, weapon choice has often made a difference in the eyes of some prosecutors and juries as to whether your action was justified.  It should not, but does.

I do want my ARs for other scenarios, but the shotgun in this limited HD instance.

I wonder if that only applies in civil cases?  I'd imagine of you could prove it was self defense, the state would care little about weapon and ammo type used.

Suppressed SBR 300 blackout

I have seen firsthand, IRL, the results of humans being shot by 12 ga slugs and '00' buckshot.  I have seen plenty of humans shot by .223 as well.

The gauge is more effective.

Yeah, I thought it was common knowledge that wounds from a 12 gauge of proper ammunition (slug, 00, 0, or even 1 and possibly 4 buck) are going to be more devastating than a 5.56 wound.  I will say the TSX's are looking pretty promising, but still.

I started out with an sks because it was all I could afford at the time. Then I got a $300 AK and that was my go to for a long time.

Now it's a suppressed SBR ar15 556. I still like having the AK with a 75 round drum but generally if I have time to get a rifle the suppressed SBR is coming out.

My current home defense rifle is a Krebs Custom AK103K with ACOG and surefire x300u loaded with Federal Fusion. I picked up a SCAR 17 over the summer that may take the place of the Krebs as my home defense rifle. I currently don't own any rifles in 5.56 and haven't had any in that caliber in about five years.

And I have seen a lot more wounds myself. But it's not just about the wound it makes. It's also about being able to send more rounds down range effectively. Being able to move in tight places etc.  with a rifle I could send many more rounds down range and in general it's shorter and easier to move with. And I wasn't just talking about 556. For the home I think a Krink with folding stock in 762x39 and a 75 rd drum would be shorter, more mobile and more effective than a Sg. And there are many more rifles that would also be better than a sg for a home.

As far as SHTF scenario you can't beat a good common reliable rifle

Rounds downrange that don't connect are wasted rounds. The wounds that rounds make do make the difference, CNS wounds are the most effective.

CNS hits are the best!

At home I've got all sorts of long guns to defend my family with, so I might grab a 7.62x39 or .308 or whatever, just depending on what I hear. I do have more 5.56 long guns than other calibers.

Here you go, this can be you....  

What you are arguing is efficiency.  I agree that when you list the attributes of the shotty and the rifle, and stack them up, the rifle comes out more efficient.  When you look at the purpose of a firearm, that is, to cause damage or injury via a ballistic projectile, the shotty is more effective.  The rifle has an effectiveness that is well within acceptable parameters for the intended use, and its additional attributes make it a more efficient means of achieving the user's objectives.

By contrast, an M82 would be more effective than a 12 gauge (for personal defense), but far less efficient.

lol

 
I loved that photo in a book about SEALs I had as a kid. I've always been somewhat enamored with the M14. It's a true "rifleman's rifle".

I'm thinking more like this one though:






It's heavier, of course, but I don't really have to lug it around much, which is good because I'm lazy.






The shotgun is more effective at close range per unarmored guy. Its transition speed from target-to-target is usually a little slower. When you throw armor onto the targets, the rifle becomes more effective. No matter how effective it is, when the mag's empty and there are more bad guys around, you've got problems only reloading can solve. Rifles can be reloaded quicker, and usually less frequently. That's why they're overall more efficient than everything else. Actually short carbines are, because they can fulfill the CQB role adequately while still remaining effective at long range.





 


 

7.62x39 for me

Showing a bunch of pics of guys using Shotguns, does not make them great..GI's can do stupid shit and make poor choices, and live to tell the tale, as they have lots of back up.

Personally, I have little use for them, They are great for bird hunting, the occasional need to breech a door and the occasional round of sporting clay's, that's about it...
I find them heavy on recoil, The ammo is heavy and bulky and takes up a lot of space, the capacity is low and difficult to reload under any little bit of stress. They are not the room clearing sweeper Hollywood would have you believe and the rate of fire is slow.

My opinion. I will most likely never need to defend me and my family from a home invasion/break in.. but if I do,I'll get one chance at it to get it right... I want the best tool for that job... a Shot gun is not it for me.