Thinking about switching from .223 to .308.
I have a Tavor but I'm looking at a PTR 91.
Planned on using this rifle for all possibilities,
long range, SHTF and so on.

Silly idea.

Are you likely to shoot beyond 600yds? Do you want to carry less ammo when the imaginary SHTF?

Unless you are looking for another caliber just for shits and giggles or to hunt game larger then deer stick with .223.

 

This x 87.


308 weighs more than 2x 5.56

Considering that you will never actually bug out in 95% of all SHTF scenarios, a battle rifle is a good choice.  I'd throw a vote towards an FAL over at PTR 91 as I prefer the ergonomics and adjustable gas system.

SHTF? What are you people imagining?

Scenarios:
You have to flee a natural disaster.
Political unrest leads to terrorism on a large scale.
Economic turbulence leads to crime.
Political unrest leads you to armed action.

Now, which of these is a scenario in which a 10 pound rifle with two pound magazines is best?

It's not a silly idea.

The .223 has it's place, but the .308 can do everything the .223 can do & more.

I sold off all of my ARs about 15 years ago and collected a bunch of 7.62mm M14s.
I don't regret my decision, and I wish I had done it sooner.
A good deal popped up on a Daewoo AR100 a couple years ago, so I now have one .223

I have ARs, AKs, plus a PTR91 and M1A Scout. For 99.9% of all probable SHTF scenarios, a LW short(SBR) AR would be the best imo. Much lighter(means I can carry other chit easier), smaller so its easier to hide/stash (remember how gun owners were treated in New Orleans?) and/or carry, works way better in a vehicle(try to wield that PTR or M1A in your car), carry more ammo for the same bulk and weight, etc. But thats me.

Not really. Op might like ringing steel louder at 600, or he wants to hunt deer legally in CT on 10+ acres. Or he's bored with 556.

In my drunken imagination most altercations in shtf can be solved with a handgun. Having a bigger gun to supplement ahandgun would be bbeneficial. If i was going to carry a 762 it would be a bolt with glass.

Btw, my go to long gun is a m4a1 clone with an aimpoint but I can see the +and- to carrying a .308 bolt. Id be ok with it if I had a good high capacity 9mm, g19, p226, 92fs etc

OP.......No

I vote no also. IMHO, there are a few other options that are far better than the PTR rifles when it comes to 7.62: AR-10/SR25, FAL, m1a, AKM, etc...and yes, I have shot them all, and yes, the PTR is the least favorite of them all.  Not to mention, the PTR's and G3's beat the shit out of the brass.  Even if you don't reload, you should be policing your .308 brass because it can easily be sold.  However, nobody would be buying PTR brass.  That shit looks worse than having the case come out of a machine gun.  

Also, you can have the best of all worlds: bull pup, 5.56 and 7.62:  <http://deserttech.com/mdr.php>

Not out yet, of course, but should be coming along soon (hopefully).

No.

A 5.56 carbine is more versatile than a .308 rifle

They still have their place, but that place is small

I chose 6.5 Grendel instead of 7.62 X 51.  Compare the ballistics of the 6.5 Grendel to M-80 ball and you might understand my choice.  I have Wolf & PPU 120 grain MPT ( Multi Purpose Tactical ), PPU 110 grain FMJ and Wolf 100 grain FMJ steel case.  Add in my Hornady 123 grain A-Max & SST and all my reloads, I think this is a viable option.  Of course I'm prepared with 5.56/223 in my  AR's and a Tavor.

I agree stay 223

Especially since the ptr is the worst 308 choice

Get a ar10 or scar. Fal or m1a second.

Agreed. I got rid of my .308's a while ago. I still have other ~.30 caliber rifles, but my ARs are my go-to.

replace?  no.

supplement? sure.

if you like weight maybe a 24 inch steyr aug or a sig 556 dmr with a 21 inch barrel? Both of best worlds , longer barrel, greater velocity and you can use it to do bicep curls

Keep the 5.56 and get a .308 bolt gun for hunting and long range.

2nd adding not replacing.

Ptr rifles are nice (fun,reliable, and just plain bad ass), but smaller lighter and more capacity will be more useful in more situations.

2nd adding not replacing.

Ptr rifles are nice (fun,reliable, and just plain bad ass), but smaller lighter and more capacity will be more useful in more situations.

After just getting back from trying to find simple .308 Ball....keep the 5.56 for your main gun.

get whatever rifle you want, just practice with it

308 is a great caliber, has pros/cons like all others, some are listed above.

M1A if you like only irons
AR10 based if you want optics

those are my two favorites

Go buy the rifle you want and plan on making it an add or option, kind of compliments the 556/223.  If you think it is right to make the change then do so.  Consider ammo cost, availability, and weight.  Which will you have a better chance of finding in a time of want or need when supply is low?  

Mike

Two is one and one is none.  Have both.

Really? every wallmart in RI has tons of it for .50¢ per round

The 556 situation is the same .50¢ per round

556 can be had much cheaper.online though

Well if you plan on using it for defense and SHTF I suggest keeping the 5.56. 5.56 is a lot lighter and you can carry more rounds plus the rifle is lighter. Everyone argues about caliber and I seriously doubt someone's judgement if they plan on making shots past 50 yards where a 5.56 works just as well

I LOVE my PTR 91; deadly accurate to 500 yds & w/ a case buffer the brass is very reloadable and drops 5 ft from the ejection port in a neat little pile.
very simple, easily maintainable design, very little to fail even under hard use. It definitely has it's place in the arsenal. Is it the do all weapon? Maybe not but it's nice to have
a bombproof .308 battle-rifle for those long distance call situations.

Switch completely? No. Supplement, yes. Keep both.

This arsenal stuff is bullshit. Fewer guns are better. Use the balance to shoot more, buy a gym membership and pay down debts.

Thanks, thats all taken care off. Ill spend my money on what I want.

Long as you know it's a hobby and not a toolbox I don't care.

ALL situations - maybe not.
Long distance yes (if you don't have to carry it and a bunch of other stuff). - BTW the new DPMS G2 are about the same weight as an AR15.... but the weight of the round isn't.
If your bugging out - lighter = more.
If your staying put - bigger = better (maybe).

IMO - have both.

I've assembled a small arsenal over the last 2 years, partly because I buy what I like and partly because the 2016 elections are around the corner, plus I live in CA. Sometimes I feel like the ant preparing for winter, but there are times I wish I could just keep only what I would need.

Just curious, how have you consolidated your firearms?

I have some random sporting weapons but beyond that I have 2 9mm Glocks, 1 10mm Glock and 3 ARs.

And an AI AW, but that's a toy.

 
Uhh, I think your rifle might be broken. You know, how 91's are normally suppose to launch brass into the next galaxy.

But on a serious tone, how'd you get it to do that?




Also, OP. Nothing wrong with going for Battle rifles or just straight up 308. Just be prepared for your wallet to take a hit.

I cant imagine why anyone would use a non AR pattern 308 for any of those things.

so much wrong here:

1.  a 2 MOA rifle is unsuitable for "long range" whaever you mean by that.

2. 7.62 nato and 556 trajecotry is almost the same. If you put a 5.56 in a killbox at 500 yards, do you really think he is going to come and get you after that?  Better to be able to see your impacts youself and walk your impacts into the target and have plenty of ammo.

3. .308 is not a good urban/cqb chambering.  Tts ammo/gun weight is unsuited to the latter.  Remember that most rounds spent in a gun fight are suppressive in nature to allow one to move to better cover and better vantage.  He who runs out of ammo first gets pinned down and dies first.  Plus 308, particularly a G3 handles poorly, is slow to get on target and to recover between shots.

4. if you are really in a bind and you need to harvest deer/hogs etc w/ 5.56 it works fine.  Not legal for hunting usually, but there are plenty of dead hogs to attest to the lethality of 5.56.  

5.  308 is a terrible long range chambering.  Sure people shoot themlong range, sure it is accurate, but it has trajectory like rainbows.  There are many short action or magnum common chamberings that would do much better at external and/or terminal ballistics than 308 eg .260 rem, -06, 300/7mm magnum etc.

6. did I mention how heavy 308 and its guns are? How you cannot carry half as much ammo?  How the most importan thing in a gunfight is to have ammo, after having a gun of course.  

I submit that you keep the M4gry for a general purpose rifle and get another upper or rifle in another chambering if you need for a particular hunting scenario that you actually do now.

Fantastic imaginations in this thread.  

Is it always like this in these SHTF threads?

You clearly missed the "What two primary rifles to carry in SHTF" thread

My prediction is that the shit will not hit the fan. And if it does, the type of rifle you have will be the least of your concerns.

Get whatever gun you want.

This probably the best post in the thread.

I prefer the .223/5.56. I like the .308, but even as a reloader,  I just can't afford to keep a decent supply of .308 on hand for as much as I shoot. Way too expensive and the components can be found, but cost more than I care to spend. I have a DSA SA58 FN-FAL and about 1k rounds of ammo right now. When that's gone, I'll probably sell the rifle and move on.

+1

These are topics of age old debate, and it usually comes down to the specific environment, bias or indoctrination.

1.  a 2 MOA rifle is unsuitable for "long range" whatever you mean by that.

Unless they are talking about a precision rifle, "long" range for most people is prickly 350-500 yards.   For a precision shooter that falls into the mid range category.

However, if you are talking people sized targets at ranges of 500 yards or less, 2 MOA can still get the job done.  1.5 MOA is better, but you don't need 1 MOA or 1/2 MOA accuracy by any means.  

Also, accuracy is dependent not only on the rifle or carbine, but also on the bullet.

For example, the 10 shot extreme spread data for the Mk 12 SPR firing Mk 262 ammo indicates it is capable of a head shot at 600m and a body shot at 800m 10 out of 10 shots on a calm day.

However, an M4 with a ACOG and Mk 262 ammo can achieve the same 10/10 probability with a head shot at 500m and a body shot a 700m on a calm day.  

An M4 with M855 ammo on the other hand will only make a head shot 10/10 times at 150m and a body shot is limited to about 350m at that confidence level.

Consequently you can't separate the discussion of rifle from ammo when discussing accuracy.

2. 7.62 nato and 556 trajecotry is almost the same. If you put a 5.56 in a killbox at 500 yards, do you really think he is going to come and get you after that?  Better to be able to see your impacts yourself and walk your impacts into the target and have plenty of ammo.

There is trajectory to consider, but also and wind drift and terminal performance.

With M193 in an M16A2 zeroed for 300m, you have 8 MOA of drop at 500m along with 8 MOA of windage in a 10 mph full value crosswind.  

With M855 in the same M16A2, you have 8 MOA of drop at 500m, but only 6 MOA of wind drift.  

With Mk 262 in an 18" barrel you'll have 9 MOA of drop at 500m and once again only 6 MOA of drift -  but much better terminal performance.

In a short 14.5" barrel, the advantage goes entirely to the Mk 262 in terms of trajectory, accuracy and terminal effectiveness.   If you look at the issue above, it's obvious that accuracy matters as if you can't hit the target, flat trajectory and terminal effects are irrelevant.

M80 ball in a 20" barrel has the same basic trajectory was the drift of 8 MOA and 6 MOA as the M16A2/M855 combination.

M118LR however has a similar 8 MOA drop but only 4 MOA of drift at 500m.  

3. .308 is not a good urban/cqb chambering.  Tts ammo/gun weight is unsuited to the latter.  Remember that most rounds spent in a gun fight are suppressive in nature to allow one to move to better cover and better vantage.  He who runs out of ammo first gets pinned down and dies first.  Plus 308, particularly a G3 handles poorly, is slow to get on target and to recover between shots.

I agree with you the G3 is heavy and handles poorly. Unlike a FAL which feels lighter and shorter than it actually is, the G3 actually feels heavier and handles slower than it should at it's actual weight.  The only thing it brings to the game is exceptional accuracy for a service rifle.  

Weight is an issue.  10 kg of ammo weight gets you 280 rounds of 7.62mm compared to around 600 rounds of 5.56mm, depending on the bullet used. At close range, where 5.56mm wounding effects are impressive, and in a CQB situation where round count and suppressive fire matter no one will argue that 5.56mm is a better choice.  That's been the case for 50 years.

However, at long range, it's not as clear cut.  Once again, if you can't hit the target it's irrelevant, and if your hit percentage is half as good with 5.56mm as it is with 7.62mm, then the difference in weight is irrelevant.  If your hit percentage is less than hals as good as with 5.56mm, then 7.62 is superior.

Anyway you look at it, at long range - however that is defined - it all comes down to the ability of the rifleman to actually hit is target, and that far outweighs the edge either caliber may have.    

4. if you are really in a bind and you need to harvest deer/hogs etc w/ 5.56 it works fine.  Not legal for hunting usually, but there are plenty of dead hogs to attest to the lethality of 5.56.  

.22 Hornet works fine as well - what matters with a small caliber is bullet placement so accuracy is paramount.  

5.  308 is a terrible long range chambering.  Sure people shoot themlong range, sure it is accurate, but it has trajectory like rainbows.  There are many short action or magnum common chamberings that would do much better at external and/or terminal ballistics than 308 eg .260 rem, -06, 300/7mm magnum etc.

I'm confused.  You've made the point that trajectories are essentially the same for 5.56mm and 7.62mm, but you're saying the .308 is a horrible long range round, and are suggesting a third cartridge now?

I guess it depends on what you consider to be long range versus very long range.   M852 ammo is effective to 800 yards, and will drift less than M855 or Mk 262.  M118LR will push the envelope out to 1000 yards.  A .300 win mag, .338 Lapua, etc, are indeed much better choices at very long ranges over 1000 yards, but they will require a larger, heavier rifle with a longer barrel to get maximum ballistic efficiency and they will recoil more, with a muzzle brake needed to keep recoil a bit more tolerable (reducing recoil, but increasing blast and noise).  Plus, you end up being able to carry fewer rounds than you could in 7.62mm Nato for any given weight.  

The 6.5s are the current long range tactical darlings, and they avoid the weight issue, but they are much less available and components are much less available than for the plain old .308.  If rounds like the 6.5 Creedmore ever become adopted service rounds, then we've got a viable option and a serious competitor to the .308 for a 500-1000 yard round.

6. did I mention how heavy 308 and its guns are? How you cannot carry half as much ammo?  How the most important thing in a gunfight is to have ammo, after having a gun of course.

There is value in suppressive fire, but let's be honest, the purpose of pinning your enemy down is so that someone can eventually kill him.  If that never happens it's just wasted ammo.

Let's also consider what will happen if one of the many apocalyptic situations arises.  You'll be alone or in a very small group, with very limited resources. Whether you're carrying 5.56mm or 7.62mm, you won't have an unlimited supply and re-supply will be limited or non existant.  I'll argue that staying at least 500 yards away from your target and engaging your target between 500 and 800 yards with a high probability of a hit and a low probability of detection is a much better way to hold an enemy at bay, particularly if they out number you.  You can pin them in place with very few rounds, then use the time and distance to either displace or disengage.

In that situation, I'll take a very accurate suppressed .308 over a 5.56mm and twice as much ammo.

ARMALITE DEFENDER-10
about $930

....better yet, get a 6.8mmSPC

.308 ammo gets REAL heavy

This. People generally seem to get into 7.62 guns because they get some sort of collecting itch or just think they're cool. If AR15's were more rare, those same people would praise the AR's.

If you believe that SHFT is possible, do you really want to START OVER NOW and have to buy thousands of rounds of 7.62 at 50 cents or more per round? To have a weapon where spare parts are rare and a lot less people will be tooled or knowledgeable to work on them?

Milsurp 7.62 was like 20 cents or less per round when I had a Cetme when I was 12y/o. Look at the prices now. And demand is crazy during the scares, because of the battle rifle crowd. Good luck in the future.

When it comes to firearms, hitting what you aim at is more important than what the rifle and ammo weighs.

If you can't master the basic skills required to hit your target, then it doesn't matter what you are carrying.

.223, .308, or whatever, just make sure that you are really good at hitting your target with your chosen weapon & caliber.

If your paying more than .33 a round for 5.56 ball, your paying too much.

lol... Your doing it wrong.  

An AI is an excellent SHTF rifle

The most relevant post in this thread.

Did you read my post? Yes, online it is. No problem. Locally .223 is .40 cents and 556 is .50 cents. When we had zqi 556 at walmart for .33 I was buying it long before the greentip panic. Local wal-Marts no longer carry zqi 556.