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Posted: 3/25/2015 12:36:50 AM EDT
So I buy a lower and register it to me. Give it as a gift in complete rifle form to friends/family. I assume they're supposed to register it to themselves? On them to do that also right? Interested in possibly getting an FFL...Is this more trouble than its worth? I just want to be able to sell my hobby legit possibly. Would love feedback. Thank You!
Link Posted: 3/25/2015 12:57:31 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
So I buy a lower and register it to me. Give it as a gift in complete rifle form to friends/family. I assume they're supposed to register it to themselves? On them to do that also right? Interested in possibly getting an FFL...Is this more trouble than its worth? I just want to be able to sell my hobby legit possibly. Would love feedback. Thank You!
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There is NO GUN REGISTRATION IN WY. How da fuq did you come up with the bit of intel, let alone any of this registration mumbo jumbo?  You a CA, NY, MA transplant?

 Unless you can kick out AR's for under $600 save your money.

Once you start "building" AR's you better have your correct FFL in hand, now that you've kicked the hypothetical out there in interwebx land.
Link Posted: 3/25/2015 1:04:23 AM EDT
[#2]
Every time I buy a gun I have to get it registered to me with background check. Yeah I don't have to go down to the cop shop and do some more red tape there, but at time of purchase that serial number has my name on it in a gobment file right? Pretty standard I believe. You don't buy a gun legally without this. No, born and raised. Maybe I'm using the term "register" wrong
Link Posted: 3/25/2015 1:08:14 AM EDT
[#3]
If you "gift" them a complete rifle you assembled they do not have to register it unless you make them. It's basically a face to face transaction at that point and there is no law making you to go run a 4473 to have a background done.
Link Posted: 3/25/2015 1:18:44 AM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:
Every time I buy a gun I have to get it registered to me with background check. Yeah I don't have to go down to the cop shop and do some more red tape there, but at time of purchase that serial number has my name on it in a gobment file. Pretty standard I believe. You don't buy a gun legally without this. No, born and raised.
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IT'S NOT REGISTERED.   Where you folks come up with this registration stuff is  
The only file said info is located at is your LGS till they decide to give up their FFL. THEN all those 4473's get sent to the ATF's storage, or what ever it's called warehouse.

Link Posted: 3/25/2015 1:37:09 AM EDT
[#5]
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Quoted:
Every time I buy a gun I have to get it registered to me with background check. Yeah I don't have to go down to the cop shop and do some more red tape there, but at time of purchase that serial number has my name on it in a gobment file right? Pretty standard I believe. You don't buy a gun legally without this. No, born and raised. Maybe I'm using the term "register" wrong
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It's not registration its simply a background check yes they record your name that you are buying a long gun, pistol or other, but no serial numbers go to any government agency. At some point if they were to recover your weapon is a crime they could link it back through the manufacturer, distributor and FFL, but they would physically have to go to the FFL and dig though forms, there is no registration or record on file. other than what type of weapon you bought. If you do a face to face transaction among private parties no FFL is required in most states.

FFLs can be a pain generally in a city or town it's too much of pain, because of all the red tape other than those long established FFLs. If you are in the country it is easier as you will just need permission of a county, a business license, and the proper federal forms. You must have a brick and mortar location and it must have business hours.

As far as buying a rifle and giving it to family member/friend you are generally okay, but if you are selling it you can get in some trouble if your intent is to buy and sell guns for profit, and when buying said guns your intended to sell them. This would be bordering on being a in business of selling firearms which would require an FFL. Now if a family member buys the stripped lower and put it together for them you are probably okay IMO. Although at some point you may be crossing into the gunsmith category.
Link Posted: 3/25/2015 2:44:43 AM EDT
[#6]
You put one thing in the title but asked a different question in the OP.

If you are doing what you put in the title you need an ffl. The title text describes a for profit business.

You can buy a firearm to own and decide to trade or sell it later. You can buy a firearm as an investment to sell at some later date. You can not buy a firearm as inventory to sell for profit unless you have an ffl.
Link Posted: 3/25/2015 3:53:39 AM EDT
[#7]
While the ATF has up to this point looked the other way regarding people occasionally selling their builds, it would be extremely risky to "open shop" without an FFL. While most AR builders eventually sell their projects, we do so for the purpose of getting money to build something new and exciting. More often than not, we are lucky to reclaim our investment, much less turn a profit, especially with AR prices at an all time low. IMHO, if you sold enough to turn a decent profit, which would be pretty high volume, you would most likely catch someone's attention. You would also have hundreds of receivers out there that were last registered to you, which would make me a bit uneasy.

You can however build AR uppers without an FFL, which may be more profitable anyways. Just register a small business with your state, and RSR group and others will sell you parts at a ten to twenty percent discount. All you have to do is collect sales tax, no FFL required.



Link Posted: 3/25/2015 8:44:03 AM EDT
[#8]
Another wrinkle here is that if you're building rifles for sale as an FFL, they need to be marked with your manufacturer info on them. That means getting a run of lowers with your business name on it, or having secondary markings on the lowers (which looks awkward).

Simply put, this isn't really the time to get into selling ARs. Too much competition that has way more scale than you at all points in the market.
Link Posted: 3/25/2015 9:04:20 AM EDT
[#9]
Oh, and if you intend to start assembling and selling firearms, you not only need to get a Manufacturer FFL, but have to pay the 12% tax on the completed firearm to the ATF.
Link Posted: 3/25/2015 11:31:47 AM EDT
[#10]
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Quoted:
While the ATF has up to this point looked the other way regarding people occasionally selling their builds, it would be extremely risky to "open shop" without an FFL. While most AR builders eventually sell their projects, we do so for the purpose of getting money to build something new and exciting. More often than not, we are lucky to reclaim our investment, much less turn a profit, especially with AR prices at an all time low. IMHO, if you sold enough to turn a decent profit, which would be pretty high volume, you would most likely catch someone's attention. You would also have hundreds of receivers out there that were last registered to you, which would make me a bit uneasy.

You can however build AR uppers without an FFL, which may be more profitable anyways. Just register a small business with your state, and RSR group and others will sell you parts at a ten to twenty percent discount. All you have to do is collect sales tax, no FFL required.



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NOT REGISTERED  
The paperwork / 4473 would show his name as original purchaser. If one of the receivers were tracked from mfg / vendor / ffl to the OP AND the ATF asked to see said item. the op could say he sold it to pay for XX. Which isn't a big deal. HOWEVER when they ask to see the other 4, 5 12 lowers the OP purchased through his LGS, within the last 6 months and couldn't produce them, That's where the gray line gets blurred.  He might get a warning, as others have. With the suggestion to file for his FFL OR. IF the feds wanted the Op for something else, use said operating a business with out FFL as leverage .
Link Posted: 3/25/2015 11:34:22 AM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:
Another wrinkle here is that if you're building rifles for sale as an FFL, they need to be marked with your manufacturer info on them. That means getting a run of lowers with your business name on it, or having secondary markings on the lowers (which looks awkward).

Simply put, this isn't really the time to get into selling ARs. Too much competition that has way more scale than you at all points in the market.
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No they do not. A SOT can build rifles all day lone using vendors products w/out requiring the name of said builder on them. Now if the builder was using 80% lowers as, shadow ops, or other mfg's were. Then Yes his / her name of company, serial #,  place of origin must be on the receiver.
Link Posted: 3/25/2015 11:38:15 AM EDT
[#12]
All good responses .
I say go on a fishing trip instead of your idea in the OP
Link Posted: 3/25/2015 11:46:57 AM EDT
[#13]
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Quoted:



No they do not. A SOT can build rifles all day lone using vendors products w/out requiring the name of said builder on them. Now if the builder was using 80% lowers as, shadow ops, or other mfg's were. Then Yes his / her name of company, serial #,  place of origin must be on the receiver.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Another wrinkle here is that if you're building rifles for sale as an FFL, they need to be marked with your manufacturer info on them. That means getting a run of lowers with your business name on it, or having secondary markings on the lowers (which looks awkward).

Simply put, this isn't really the time to get into selling ARs. Too much competition that has way more scale than you at all points in the market.



No they do not. A SOT can build rifles all day lone using vendors products w/out requiring the name of said builder on them. Now if the builder was using 80% lowers as, shadow ops, or other mfg's were. Then Yes his / her name of company, serial #,  place of origin must be on the receiver.

That is not how I interpreted the ATF's view on the subject. By creating a complete firearm from the 100% receiver, the SOT is acting as a manufacturer, and thus must engrave their information on the firearm.
Link Posted: 3/25/2015 1:22:14 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:    Give it as a gift in complete rifle form to friends/family.
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How do I get on the list for a free rifle? :)

I am not a lawyer but I sometimes think that I understand the law and talk and act as if I do. I do not however profess to comprehend the actions and intents of Federal agencies.

With that said, a careful reading of the FFL form F4473, Question 1,  "Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form?", maybe, maybe not. From the outset your stated intent is to not retain ownership of the firearm (lower). While it may not be your intention to subvert the process, there may be an appearance of doing so.

The other questions raised about an ongoing process of constructing firearms may also be a concern.

If the person to who you would eventually 'give' the rifle were to accept transfer of the lower from the FFL from the outset, that would seem to avoid some complications.
Link Posted: 3/25/2015 10:07:51 PM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:
All good responses .
I say go on a fishing trip instead of your idea in the OP
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ha ha! Great minds...I love fishing, but only when its raining, or its not.
Link Posted: 3/25/2015 10:14:33 PM EDT
[#16]
Sorry guys to clarify I was curious if getting into building AR's as a hobby - build one, play with it for a while. Sell it if someone shows interest or wants to make a trade. Do it again. I've found building the things to be almost as much fun as shooting them and need to support my habit as I'm not of the means to do what I want. I know I asked more than one question with this post. I' was just curious about the ffl in addition. I'm not looking to do anything nefarious or illegal. Just trying to understand the law. I sure do appreciate you all!
Link Posted: 3/25/2015 10:26:05 PM EDT
[#17]
It's really more like assembling them not building.   You buy parts push a few pins tighten a barrel nut etc etc .  You will most likely lose money and since you've now stated your intent online you would be wise to let this idea go and just enjoy your hobby for yourself.

 For the record there is nothing wrong with assembling a rifle and selling it as long as it is not your intent to do it for the sole purpose of profit. That would make you a business
Perhaps you may want to look at a gunsmiths course and the appropriate FFL for a gunsmith
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 1:54:17 AM EDT
[#18]
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Quoted:
Sorry guys to clarify I was curious if getting into building AR's as a hobby - build one, play with it for a while. Sell it if someone shows interest or wants to make a trade. Do it again. I've found building the things to be almost as much fun as shooting them and need to support my habit as I'm not of the means to do what I want. I know I asked more than one question with this post. I' was just curious about the ffl in addition. I'm not looking to do anything nefarious or illegal. Just trying to understand the law. I sure do appreciate you all!
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Reading your posts in this thread are like watching a straw sale.

Ask a mod to delete it so you can go and do the dumb fudd shit you're clearly gonna do. A local gun show is calling you. Go towards the light. And the beetus.
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 2:05:29 AM EDT
[#19]
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Quoted:
Sorry guys to clarify I was curious if getting into building AR's as a hobby - build one, play with it for a while. Sell it if someone shows interest or wants to make a trade. Do it again. I've found building the things to be almost as much fun as shooting them and need to support my habit as I'm not of the means to do what I want. I know I asked more than one question with this post. I' was just curious about the ffl in addition. I'm not looking to do anything nefarious or illegal. Just trying to understand the law. I sure do appreciate you all!
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Nothing wrong with looking into getting an FFL, but there is some expense, you have to have a brick and mortar location, you have to jump through all the federal state and local hoops. Read through some of the other posts here and decide what you want to do.
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 9:32:02 AM EDT
[#20]
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Quoted:
Sorry guys to clarify I was curious if getting into building AR's as a hobby - build one, play with it for a while. Sell it if someone shows interest or wants to make a trade. Do it again. I've found building the things to be almost as much fun as shooting them and need to support my habit as I'm not of the means to do what I want. I know I asked more than one question with this post. I' was just curious about the ffl in addition. I'm not looking to do anything nefarious or illegal. Just trying to understand the law. I sure do appreciate you all!
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I like building ARs too. Over the past 11 years, I have built around three dozen for MYSELF. Most of those I still have. Some I have sold for the need of some cash or traded them for another gun. I have helped friends build theirs with them paying for all of the parts. I charge them nothing for helping. If you want to get into building ARs, build them for yourself. When you start building and selling/gifting ARs to others, you are treading into a very dangerous area. I highly recommend not doing it. I will say this, when you do purchase several lower receivers, it does show up on radar. The ATF will wonder why a person has purchased so many. I know this from experience. It could result in a phone call or a visit. Additionally, anything firearm (including lower receivers) you buy and/or sell, you should keep an acquisition/Disposition record of them. In the event something happens with a gun you sold/traded/gifted, you will have a record of who received it from you.

Again, I would refrain from the venture you are proposing unless you get a proper FFL that permits you to do it and that comes with a lot of responsibility and costs.
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 8:59:52 PM EDT
[#21]
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Quoted:


Reading your posts in this thread are like watching a straw sale.

Ask a mod to delete it so you can go and do the dumb fudd shit you're clearly gonna do. A local gun show is calling you. Go towards the light. And the beetus.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Sorry guys to clarify I was curious if getting into building AR's as a hobby - build one, play with it for a while. Sell it if someone shows interest or wants to make a trade. Do it again. I've found building the things to be almost as much fun as shooting them and need to support my habit as I'm not of the means to do what I want. I know I asked more than one question with this post. I' was just curious about the ffl in addition. I'm not looking to do anything nefarious or illegal. Just trying to understand the law. I sure do appreciate you all!


Reading your posts in this thread are like watching a straw sale.

Ask a mod to delete it so you can go and do the dumb fudd shit you're clearly gonna do. A local gun show is calling you. Go towards the light. And the beetus.


Yeah I'll admit my subject line sucked, and it probably gave a bunch of people the wrong impressions about me and my intentions. I'm not worried though because I'm not going to break the law (building guns for profit under that table)  I assume you think that's my intention. I can assure you its not. Hope you have a better day.
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 9:48:32 PM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:



IT'S NOT REGISTERED.   Where you folks come up with this registration stuff is  
The only file said info is located at is your LGS till they decide to give up their FFL. THEN all those 4473's get sent to the ATF's storage, or what ever it's called warehouse.

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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Every time I buy a gun I have to get it registered to me with background check. Yeah I don't have to go down to the cop shop and do some more red tape there, but at time of purchase that serial number has my name on it in a gobment file. Pretty standard I believe. You don't buy a gun legally without this. No, born and raised.



IT'S NOT REGISTERED.   Where you folks come up with this registration stuff is  
The only file said info is located at is your LGS till they decide to give up their FFL. THEN all those 4473's get sent to the ATF's storage, or what ever it's called warehouse.



If you ever spent some time on a Face Book gun group you will find the whole registration BS spewed as gospel.  Many people believe that the serial number is reported during a NICS call.  I have tried many times to educate people but the level of stupid has proven insurmountable.
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