Hello, I'm new to this forum and need advise. I emailed Wilson Combat and asked what their Paul Howe AR accuracy. Customer service replied and said 1/2" moa at 100 yards, and I would receive a test target with purchase. The only other manufacture with that accuracy was Les Baer. I bought the ar. After receiving the gun,  I didn't receive the test target and email right away. Customer service replied that the would send the 1" moa at 100yds test target asap. When I questioned the previous email they said their product isn't that accurate. I asked for a refund because the didn't tell the truth about their product. Is this typical sales pitch for Wilson Combat? Am I being unreasonable?

Heard that the AR guy at Wilson has moved on and some say he was the only reason Wilson had any respect in the AR community.  Not sure if this is the first sign of the times....just sayin

A few thoughts as follows:

First, it's important to understand that "customer service" reps at various companies often provide inconsistent/incorrect information.  This is often the case in the firearms industry.  I would want to see claims made in writing, on the mfg website, or something like that.  

Second, you made a purchase based upon bad information provided, in writing, from a representative of the company.  That, by itself, should be sufficient grounds for you to be able to return the rifle for a full refund (hopefully you saved the email).

Third, even if the rifle is mechanically capable of shooting 1/2 moa, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are capable of shooting it to that degree of accuracy.  Shooting 1/2 moa requires a lot of work from the shooter, and it's going to be hard to do with factory ammo.  My point is that you may have a high quality rifle that you may want to consider holding onto regardless of the fact that it might not shoot 1/2 moa.  Paul Howe is a very reputable individual, and if he is putting his name on this rifle, it says something.  But, if your ultimate goal is sub moa accuracy (assuming you are capable of it), then maybe you should go ahead and return the rifle and seek out something better suited to what you are looking for.

Good luck to you

More importantly did they resolve the situation with you with a good outcome howd that go?

Neither of these make sense. Are you sure they didn't say 1/2" to 1 MOA at 100 yards?

1/2" at 100 yards, by definition, is better than MOA.

Looks like the user manual says 1 MOA.

I have to agree with this OP. I understand you feel like you were misled but Wilson combat has a good reputation for customer service so I am sure they will take care of you. Are you a  well versed bench shooter? If not I wouldn't expect to get that kind of accuracy out of any rifle, the shooter is just as important as the tool. In any case if the rifle functions then i'd stick with it.

No offense OP but I wouldn't expect you or me to be able to wring 1/2 moa even out of a Les Bauer rifle.

Here is the way I see it. If you end up shooting at a bad guy with the WC AR, is it going to matter what MOA it is? Most likely not. With a carbine, or any defensive AR, all I care about is getting MOM (minute of man) and if I have the time, MOH (minute of head). For a precision AR, .5MOA-1MOA is extremely good. Like someone else mentioned, if you are looking to do precision shooting, you may want to consider something else geared toward that kind of shooting. A 14.7" AR carbine is not a precision weapon, it is a defensive carbine. If you can make consistent head shot at 100 yards with no problem, you are good to go.

This right here. I agree.

.5moa is a hard standard for a 223 chambered AR.  A "1moa" test target is probably going to be just sub.  A .5moa guarantee   would probably mean that the rifle is capable of less than that... i just don't see that happening with any consistency with any brand.

http://www.gunworld.com/maximum-accuracy-ar/

I was going to argue with you and state that maybe the OP is looking for a precision AR that can do more than MOH. But then a looked up the rifle in question and see that it is a lightweight carbine. So yes, I agree with your statement. If you're wanting a lightweight carbine, this should be plenty accurate. If you're wanting a precision AR that can come close to 1/2 MOA, this is not the right setup.

Another important thing to consider, are you a .5 moa shooter?

It's a fighting carbine, not a bench rest gun.

You will be fine.

If you want extreme accuracy-- you need to contact ''Compass Lake Engineering'', Frank White can build one that will easily do 1/2''. But-- it will be a heavy barrel Kreiger [ or another quality barrel ]

I'd just keep the rifle and spare yourself the hassle of buying it or something just like it again.

It is a little unreasonable.

Asking what kind of accuracy a rifle is capable of is different than asking for a guarantee. There is no standard for measuring accuracy, but for most manufacturers it's a 3 shot group. If you check out the MOA all day long challenge, we count 10 shot groups on AR15. When it comes down to it, very few ARs are capable of MOA accuracy indefinitely, and I have doubts when someone says they have several 1" 10 shot groups at 100 yards. You also need to develop a load or use match ammo that is suited to that particular rifle to push past 1 MOA accuracy (even with the most accurate ARs, the majority of ammo off the shelf will not produce 1 MOA groupings using the standard AR15.com criteria for measurement). On the other hand I have never owned an AR that won't do a 1" 3 shot group at 100 yards, most on the first attempt (even my pistol). When you ask an employee of a gun store, a CS rep, it wouldn't be dishonest to say a rifle that is very precise is capable of .5 MOA because they've probably seen several of the 3 shot test groups in that range, and you didn't request a guarantee that would void the sale if it proved to be less accurate, or stipulate your criteria for measurement.

I have saw a lot of accuracy testing, and even the best barrels only do about .7 MOA consistently (when you use 10 shot groups, and that is fired from a sled). A manufacturer would say they are sub .5 MOA guns though because they will do a sub .5 MOA 3 shot group on a test card.

You call and ask a CS rep how accurate a rifle is. He says 1/2" groups at 100 yds and you will receive a test target. The majority of test targets sent out probably show sub .5 MOA groups, and you simply asked how accurate the gun was. I would be more concerned that they were going to send a test target AFTER you bought the gun (how are they going to fire your rifle when they've already sold it?). You call back and they say that the guarantee is for 1" at 100 yds (you didn't ask for a guarantee the first time, you simply asked how accurate the model was). You haven't even shot the rifle to see if you're satisfied with the accuracy? You're expecting the rifle to outshoot the inherent accuracy of the round, a guarantee that it will from the manufacturer, when the fact is that even if the rifle shot perfect groups, shooter inconsistency, ammo inconsistency, and other variables would make shooting 10 round .5 MOA groups nearly impossible. It's the definition of unreasonable - but you're probably just not familiar with the platform, and aren't aware just how unrealistic your expectations are. That's ok, but if you wanted an accurate AR15 I advise keeping the rifle and shooting it, and shooting other ARs (borrow a friend's, rent one at a range, buy a cheao pcarbine from PSA). If you find it's not noticeably more accurate than average ARs, return it with a clear conscience.

OP, I wouldn't be surprised if you couldn't wrangle out a 1/2 moa group on occasion with hand loads.
Asking for consistent 1/2 MOA performance is asking for a lot.
It's also another thing to be able to shoot 1/2 MOA.

When you buy a Wilson Combat rifle from an authorized dealer, it COMES WITH THE TEST TARGET. If you didn't receive a test target with the rifle, then how do you expect Wilson to send you a target made with that gun after the fact? They test fire the rifle at the factory, before it leaves their hands and makes its way to the shelves of your gun shop. So either your gun shop didn't include the target for some reason, or you bought it second hand. If you Google Image search Wilson Combat AR15 test targets, you'll see what their size is. Typically it's sub-MOA from what I've seen. They all list the distance and type of ammo used as well.

I just visited WC's website and then Googled every instance of the rifle I could find, including varous board posts, ads and user groups.  I could not find anything, anywhere, indicating that WC has ever published a 1/2 MOA guarantee for that rifle.  None.  Perhaps I missed it.   One MOA, yes.   Three shot group targets, yes.  If this comes down to a "he said, I said" verbal thing, there must have been a misunderstanding and OP will lose.   There are simply too many variables to try to control from the inherent design of AR's compared to the design of match grade bolt guns for a manufacturer to make that kind of accuracy guarantee, even for a three shot group.  There is a lot more involved to AR accuracy than just the barrel, and only some of the variables are subject to manufacturing control.

1st post
Join date
Not one response since

No one else smells a troll?

Post count and join date shouldn't really matter, but the lack of response should.

In this case all the evidence needs to be looked at together.

I think there is a big difference, for instance, in saying that some or even many of WC's match grade barrels shoot 1/2 MOA, and such a statement being a guarantee that the particular rifle in question will do so.

I found this thread over at the WC Industry portal, which may have some bearing on the subject:

WC Industry Portal Thread on Barrel Accuracy

To me, this statement is a source of potential confusion and could lead a user to having higher expectations than reasonable, but it is NOT a guarantee that a specific barrel on a specific rifle will do so.  If OP was given such a statement, verbally, it is not a guarantee for the particular rifle.

I have a Wilson Combat Paul Howe Barrel.



With 77gr match ammo it does indeed shoot 1MOA, with surplus it is nowhere near.



I have also a friend with the 14.5" WC 308 AR complete gun. His prints fist size groups at 600m.

Ever think people might have to work and not sit in front of the computer??

From what I understand no company can guarantee that their product is accurate. Mainly because it depends on ammunition and down right to the skill of the user, which they can't really control. Most companies with a "guaranteed" MOA tends to only state their ammo they used and they always under estimate it to averages.

Now with that said, test targets aren't really a "MOA Grantee." It's simply a QA process to say that the weapon has been fired and it is hitting within their acceptable ideal process. That doesn't mean you'd get the same deal.

Overall buying a Wilson Combat with the idea that it is going to hit some MOA is kinda like buying a car and expecting it to get the full speed as stated on the odometer.

What an array of info and comments. Thank you for informational comments. First off I'll never be any expert marksman. I only want the best money could buy. WC did email and say 1/2" group at 100 yards and would send the test target. As I said, no test target and changed their story (1"group at 100yds) after I received the gun. Said they would now send the test target?? WTF! I ask for a refund.  The website says great customer service, cant return cd's or ammo. Says nothing about not returning guns. Said they don't give refunds on guns. Argued till the manager said she would talked to Mr. Wilson. Got a return call saying they would take the gun back I pay shipping and 250.00 restocking fee???? I will never spend my hard earned money on Wilson Combat. NOT HAPPY. I get the feeling everybody only has good comments toward WC, Guess I'm the only one that thinks differently.

Op...have you tried, shooting the rifle to see what kind of accuracy you can get out of it?

Wilson's are nice ARs, but they are not the best you can buy. Additionally, there are many others that cost less that are just as good and some better. If I may ask, for which purpose are you intending to use the AR?

Please post verbatim the full text of that email here and over on the Wilson Combat industry page, so they can respond pubicly to you in the full sunlight of this forum.  I want to see that email.  Could you forward that email thread via email to a moderator here to verify its authenticity?  Someone is fudging the facts and either a company needs to do what it promised or its reputation be redeemed and a falsehood exposed.  I want to see that email posted here and in the Wilson Combat industry sub forum here.

I'll agree with you if you publicly post the real proof.  That is reasonable.  Waiting . . .

I agree.  Something does not sound right here.

If you have an email where you can show that a representative of the company made a false claim that led to your purchase, then I find it hard to believe that they will not take the rifle back for a full refund.

There has to be more to this story.

I'm not good with computers and am trying to figure out how to get my email conversation with the rep on here.

Copy/paste. It's not brain surgery.

Your first mistake was not joining this website before buying a new AR.  Now cough up 24 bucks so you can use the subscribe button and keep up with this thread.

I also believe like others have posted that the rifle will shoot better than you're capable.  Good luck, OP.

OP, after reading your posts, you should absolutely return the rifle to Wilson Combat.  Get yourself a 6920 or a DD/BCM/etc. and be happy.  Use the extra money to take a class or buy a mechanical rest so you can get your MOA's on.  I understand them wanting you to pay shipping and a restocking fee and you'll likely have to pay it.

This is an important question
Are you returning the rifle unfired, based on a miscommunication/bad info?

What if you took it out and shot it and found it to be acceptably accurate?

Sounds like you are putting your faith in a piece of paper rather than actual performance.

Wilson AR's aren't my thing but I have two Pros.

Their customer service is pretty much legendary--mostly because people drop serious cash on their guns.

I'd take Bill's offer to buy the gun back. 250 bucks isn't that much money compared to the price of the AR you paid for--and sounds like you'll never be happy with it.

Wilson makes some of the nicest ARs bar none. They are nicer than am by brand that is routinely touted as top end here except possibly Noveske (that's whY you see so many chainsawed receivers). There are better values , but you aren't going to find a higher grade manufacturer for cheaper.

Most of their offerings are a bargain as well. Every thing they make in house is top of the line (TTU, Trim Rail , Barrels, Receivers, etc.) and anything they can't make better than anyone else, they outsource from trusted manufacturers that are carefully selected (Rogers Stoc, Lancer mags, BCM grips). Upgrades like fluting, NP3 coated bolt carriers, mid length gas system is included with many models. The fit and finish is second to none, and none of the other fan favorites will out shoot them.

For some reason I still don't care for their brand of rifle, but objectively, Wilson Combat is the type of operation other manufacturers should aim to strive for.

I still want to know if the rifle has been test fired by op or not.

Where you at op?????

This all day.....If you wanted as accurate of an AR as possible why would you even consider a 14.7" barreled rifle? Even Wilson combat offers better options and WC are known for very accurate AR's....I'd bet most of their AR'S are capable of .5 moa but there are so many factors that most companies won guarantee it to save themselves from dealing with idiots.

Still waiting on OP to post up the email chain from Wilson. And, OP.... where did you buy the rifle? Because it should have come with the test target.

I am curious as well. Sounds like something is off here.

Sounds like someone didn't do any research before making a multiple thousand dollar purchase.
Good luck

ETA: not good with computer's is right. In before the move to GD

Move to gd my butt I'm
Sorry I don't usually rant but this thing needs to be locked it's just someone having a purse throwing fit

Well? Where's the email chain? OP has disappeared. No surprise there.

I think the problem here is that the OP made a very expensive purchase without doing any research on what he was getting into. Now he demands a certain expectation be met on the accuracy of the gun - an expectation of accuracy that that specific gun and an average shooter may not be able to perform. I can't shoot that well with an AR. Not many can either under average conditions.

OP would be well served to return the gun and buy an average AR from one of many good companies, not a boutique manufacturer.

Best of luck to your situation OP . Hope all works out for you.

FPNI.