So a brief background on me- I am the third generation in an aerospace manufacturing business. Our niche is composites manufacturing for the Aerospace Industry, but a side effect of being able to compete is that we have built an incredibly versatile machine shop. We currently have five 5-axis mills and two 3 axis mills ranging in size from a 30" cube work envelope to our largest 5-axis with a 192"x264"x72" work envelope. I bring this up only to illustrate that we are not just a fly by night garage machine shop wanting to get into the black rifle craze. When the gun craziness of 2012 hit, I started looking at buying some AR parts and ran across the Spikes Biohazard billet sets. I saw that they had a crazy long lead time and actually reached out to Spikes to see if they wanted to grow their capacity by letting us help them out. I spoke with the higher ups over at Spikes and their biggest concern was being able to pay "aerospace" rates. The deal fizzled and I really didn't think much more about it. Well fast forward to now and the itch is still there for me. With the one off work that we do, we only utilize our machines at about 50% capacity due to having to remain flexible and turn projects quick. Our machine rates were figured as such so NEEDING the work is not the issue. I just think it would be fun to run off gun parts during the down time. I mean even if we are billing the gun work out at 25% our normal rate, some money is better than the machines just chilling out. Plus, it would just be a good change of pace and flat out fun to do. I have 7 engineers who love guns, plenty of seats of Catia and Solidworks, two FARO arms with laser scanners, and a laser tracker so we could literally reverse engineer anything, produce an improved CAD model and machine out the new parts. My question, if you can call it a question, is why is there not more innovation in these companies cranking out machined firearms parts? I mean even something as simple as a lower or upper receiver, why do 99% of them look the same? Anyone have any cool ideas that would be a huge departure from the norm? I'm really thinking about getting into this, but I'm not just going to be one of those companies who all make the same stuff. What is y'all's wish list of shit you just haven't seen someone do?

Paragraphs are soooooo cool!


"So a brief background on me- I am the third generation in an aerospace manufacturing business. Our niche is composites manufacturing for the Aerospace Industry, but a side effect of being able to compete is that we have built an incredibly versatile machine shop.

We currently have five 5-axis mills and two 3 axis mills ranging in size from a 30" cube work envelope to our largest 5-axis with a 192"x264"x72" work envelope. I bring this up only to illustrate that we are not just a fly by night garage machine shop wanting to get into the black rifle craze.

When the gun craziness of 2012 hit, I started looking at buying some AR parts and ran across the Spikes Biohazard billet sets. I saw that they had a crazy long lead time and actually reached out to Spikes to see if they wanted to grow their capacity by letting us help them out. I spoke with the higher ups over at Spikes and their biggest concern was being able to pay "aerospace" rates. The deal fizzled and I really didn't think much more about it.

Well fast forward to now and the itch is still there for me. With the one off work that we do, we only utilize our machines at about 50% capacity due to having to remain flexible and turn projects quick. Our machine rates were figured as such so NEEDING the work is not the issue. I just think it would be fun to run off gun parts during the down time. I mean even if we are billing the gun work out at 25% our normal rate, some money is better than the machines just chilling out. Plus, it would just be a good change of pace and flat out fun to do.

I have 7 engineers who love guns, plenty of seats of Catia and Solidworks, two FARO arms with laser scanners, and a laser tracker so we could literally reverse engineer anything, produce an improved CAD model and machine out the new parts.

My question, if you can call it a question, is why is there not more innovation in these companies cranking out machined firearms parts? I mean even something as simple as a lower or upper receiver, why do 99% of them look the same?

Anyone have any cool ideas that would be a huge departure from the norm? I'm really thinking about getting into this, but I'm not just going to be one of those companies who all make the same stuff. What is y'all's wish list of shit you just haven't seen someone do? "


It's like deja vu all over again!

I want a bolt or trigger group or magazine feed tower maybe all three that make a 10-22 receiver into a belt feed.

High capacity 20rd, 30rd .22lr pistol of traditional centerfire semi-auto style/design.

Leveraction 9mm and 45acp.

Bolt action 9mm and 45acp.

Bolt action 5.7x28mm in a scaled down action/receiver fed by FN57 magazines.

Adjustable AR15 trigger group that does not cost $300.

Alright, that made me laugh a bit. Dual posted in different sections because I did not want for it to be AR specific.

I'm thinking something like a DTA style bull pup chassis for a Remington 700. Demand may not be huge, but I'd like one and I can't find too much of a selection, so why not. Integrated bipod, magazine feed, adjustable LOP, cheek weld, etc.

Throw an SPS in there and you would have a short little tack driver for a third of the price of a DTA.

The main thing would be for it not to look like a pile of crap like most bull pup conversions. I'm talking machined billet cradle with a butter smooth fully contained trigger linkage with machined polymer and G-10 pieces here and there. Utilize AR pistol grip mating geometry so the user can pick the exact grip they are used to. Make the cradle section modular so that it can be used on other common bolt actions if demand is there.

The more I type the more I like this idea even if I don't sell even one. I want one for myself. Just might have to track down an SPS barreled action to start reverse engineering.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is what most will tell you. Also, I think most manufacturers are putting their creative caps on with all the new billet offerings out there. Billet receivers are where most companies are putting their own spin on things.

Most importantly, If you have the means to make something new, why don't you just play it safe and make some products for yourself so they won't go to waste and then post them up to see what kind of interest there is?

30-06 ar pattern rifle that takes BAR magazines.

Under 2000 dollars.

HK MP7 Clone chambered in 17HMR that takes a 30 round mag (Pistol or SBR)
Semiautomatic rifle chambered in 44 Magnum that can hold more than 3 rounds (preferably 20 or more)
SBR chambered in 357 SIG (AR MP5 Uzi - I don't care I just think that will make a good round in a carbine/SBR)

Lightweight parts for AR's are quite popular right now.        
 

Camp carbine that takes glock mags

Quarter circle 10 and (i think) Lone wolf are the only ones making glock mag ar15 lowers.

Make a $79 2 stage trigger.

RRA already has this market, it would be difficult for a new trigger to compete with the established RRA 2 stage for the same price.



 

How about something simple.  Side-by-side double barrel shotgun receivers.  Made to spec to coincide with some other side by side shotgun from a manufacturer that has good parts availability so that people could buy the receiver and then purchase the other parts to build them into AOW's.  Right now there are no manufacturers that just produce a side by side shotgun receiver that hasn't been completed with a shoulder stock (that would require a SBS $200 tax stamp as opposed to a $5 tax stamp for an AOW).  Start with a 12ga Greener receiver!

There are multiple successful manufacturers of every AR part. 5 triggers at this price point wouldn't be a losing endeavor.

If you reduce your quoted price to only 25% of your normal rate, are you able to cover your variable costs?  You will still have to pay someone to do the work and you will have wear and tear on your equipment, a higher electric bill, etc...

What is the market willing to pay for your machine time?  While I agree that the market pays for a product.  That product requires human capital, etc.. to make.

Except that if you are a startup and a customer has a choice between your product and one made by RRA, a name they are familiar with, 99% of the customers are going to go with the established company, not the new guy.

The AK platform needs more quality aftermarket options that utilize the platforms design features. I want a hand guard set that does not bolt together, the bottom using the existing retainer and the top that either uses existing gas tube springs or has one machined into it so you can pull the gas tube off without having to unbolt loctited screws. There are only 2 manufacturers  that I know of that make the bottom (both very expensive and not U.S.-made, one not even really imported) and no known that make the top like I described.

It'd still be $200 to make an AOW. It's only $5 to transfer them. If he did make such receivers, Some Type 07 FFL/Class 2 SOT could manufacture AOW's out of them, on Form 2's, and then transfer them for $5 on Form 4's.

He'd have to pay ITAR which starts at $2,250.

My $0.02 - Get squared away with what ATF is going to require first and fully understand how to stay legal.

Beyond that, try to innovate. Frankly, with people selling 100% AR lowers for $50, I'm not sure the market really needs another supplier. In case you haven't noticed there is currently a glut of firearms and accessories industry wide with AR products topping the heap.


However, since you already have a legitimate business, business location and the tooling, the required type 07 FFL should be easy to get. Then, you can manufacture whatever you want for fun (including machineguns if you add the 02 SOT). Come up with something that fills a demand in the market and then you can maybe start making money with it.

A fully machined AK receiver. There are very few out there.
It was mentioned in the GD thread,   a magazine mandrel, to reshape dented mags. Sure mags are cheap now, but who knows what the future holds.
An AK magwell adapter to allow 5.56 AKs to accept AR mags.

Including the upper hand guard?  Any plans for an extended lower hand guard?

Awesome.

Good news is Remington just laid off a bunch of workers so you can easily get trained labor.

I am tagging this as it is relative to my interests....

Your question is absolutely legit...and there ARE companies who are addressing these issues....but the true question is: are they addressing the problem correctly?



Here is the BIGGEST issue that I see in the arms industry:



Every swingning dick in the arms industry at LARGE seems to prefer to make stuff CHEAP...but not economical.  I do not mean boutique companies like Mega Arms, LaRue, etc, I mean companies like Smith and Wesson, Ruger, etc.  They have so many designs with promise but they fuck them up just trying ( and I mean absolutely, purposely TRYING) to cheapen these guns up.



A great case in point: the Ruger 10/22.  It is the hallmark and the pinnacle of semi auto 22 development....



The very minute the old man died and the firm as taken over by..whoever...their first fucking move was to make a rubber ( do NOT insult me with the term plastic ) trigger group, a cheaper, crappier finish and wide open GD and T.  Jesus, my last 10/22?  I could PULL the rear sight right out of the dovetail.  Seriously.



Here's another one:  the Remington 597.  That should be all I need to say.



The ONLY thing that saves the gun industry at this time is some very good products that are made by a very few firms, most of them small firms.  With the exception of Colt, who seems to have really gotten their act largely together over the past 15 years to a greater extent, most of the big companies are a shell of their former selves.



Whatever you do to make an impact, just do it WELL!!!  



There is one very cool, very unique design out there that has been around since the 1950s that would be very easy to re-produce in QUALITY.  Something that has not been done since that gun was designed....but we'll save that idea for later.



 

Ya lazy bum!!!













 

Just so you don't get any surprises half-way through the process (or later)... be sure to educate yourself on the State Department's International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) registration fees.  If you manufacture, you will not be exempt.  It does NOT matter if you have absolutely no plans to export.  You must pay the annual fee, and it's much more expensive than the ATF licensing and SOT costs combined.

I brought this up on the first page, a minimum of $2,250 per year. It goes up from there.

Check out Areo ATN carbine takes glock 21 mags also 9mm and 40 glock

A pistol caliber carbine 44,45,9mm .40 based on the first Ruger no, magazine tube fed, Just a pocket full of shells, what ever you shoot top it off. Make the mag as long as possible yet leave room for a can attachment.

I would imagine there's going to be some paper work to complete to be able to mill the parts you're after... if you're wanting to sell them. Wouldn't an FFL of some sort be required? Or SOT or something like that?

Or like was mentioned... AR-180 uppers... there's something right there for you maybe.

No ITAR on the upper unless it's exported IIUIC.  

Thread link AR180 related

Put me on the list for two.

Unfortunately, the ITAR fee is required for uppers (and any other part)...

From the Dept of State's website: "(a) Any person who engages in the United States in the business of manufacturing or exporting or temporarily importing defense articles, or furnishing defense services, is required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls under §122.2. For the purpose of this subchapter, engaging in such a business requires only one occasion of manufacturing or exporting or temporarily importing a defense article or furnishing a defense service. A manufacturer who does not engage in exporting must nevertheless register."

From the Dept of State's US Munition's list (defining "defense articles"):
"(h) Components, parts, accessories and attachments for the articles in paragraphs (a) through (g) of this category."

Item (a) is: "Nonautomatic and semi-automatic firearms to caliber .50 inclusive (12.7 mm)."

Click here for source
and
Click here for source

B44T, I'm not trying to call you out... just trying to prevent anyone from getting any surprises.  I had the ATF form filled out and ready to send payment for both 01 and 07 FFL.  Thankfully learned about ITAR at the last minute... literally, the day I planned to mail everything out.  For a large company or manufacturer, it's probably not too big of a deal.  But, for a small guy like me, it was a show stopper... I couldn't justify the cost, so I had to go with the 01 only (at least for now).

Not correct.

99% of what we do falls under ITAR already being that we mainly work in the defense industry. We are already registered.

You sound like a Johnny Come Lately version of Aero Precision, if you look at their history.  And they do, or at least did, make receivers for Spike's.  What was the difference between theirs and yours "aerospace" price?  

Did you guys set a price and stick to it, or were you actually trying to negotiate?  If I were in your shoes, I would have started at a cheaper price to get the name out, then raised it according to what the market would bear.

Your engineers and marketing people should have an idea of why it doesn't make much sense to stray from the current designs.  Aside from a few ergonomics here and there, how much more innovative than the current flooded market can you get?  And I am not referring to flooded as in a lot of guns on the shelves.  I am referring to all of the mall ninja features that are sold these days.  Grips, levers, switches, rails, etc...

Utilizing your equipment during the down time to generate sales dollars is a good idea, especially since you can set it aside when your core business spikes.

A hole in the market is a belt fed .22. Buy the Lakeside Razorback design and start the production back up. I'll be the fist customer!

Just a thought. Talk to thy engineers/machinists and see what is fermenting there. Look at what MDT has done for other platforms with their LSS and TAC21 chassis systems. Even look at what MESA Tactical has done for the shotgun platform.

Another weapons industry to look into is bow and crossbow parts manufacturing.  A local shop makes parts for a high end crossbow manufacturer, and recently started selling them along with firearms out of the front office of their shop.  I talked to them about lower receivers, and they said they had an 07 or whatever was needed, but they couldn't make AR receivers cheap enough.  The company was also looking into cnc turned monolithic bullets, however they lack the bullet design knowledge.  Plus there's already an existing high performance monolithic bullet manufacturer from South Africa opened a shop 11 miles away.

As others stated, you might want to look at other weapons platforms to make parts for.  Another local shop owner started making FN P90 accessories because he couldn't find anything he liked.  He branched out to make other items, such as a modular forearm for the AK.

I think Lage has done a great job finding a niche and specializing in a quality product.  There have been others but struggled in quality and production.

http://max-11.com/