Over the last couple years I’ve been blessed to be able to take my kids to the range.  I have a girl that is 11 years old and a son that is turning 14 on Friday.  I am really excited that they both seem to really like shooting.  They always get really excited before we go and tell me they have a good time and all that.  So that is a huge blessing.  Eventually I should take them to an appleseed and/or a safety class.  

But here’s what’s been bothering me.  Right now the main gun they have been shooting is  a 10/22 with irons.  And the thing that bothers me is that the temptation to rapid fire is very strong.  Not so much with my Daughter as with my son.  And it’s kind of bothering me.  

I grew up hunting deer.  It’s kind of a big deal up here in Wisconsin.  And that was my introduction into firearms, for the most part.  But most of the guns I learned on were some kind of manual action.  Bolt action was my first deer gun.  First rifle I shot to any degree.  (Although the first rifle I shot was when I was about 7 years old and some older cousins let me shoot a mini14 for like 3 shots.  I could barely hold the thing up and at the time I didn’t understand an aperture sight at all).  Anyways….

It seems to me that semi autos might hinder focusing on marksmanship.  I don’t know if it’s my personality or what, but I’d rather they treatt every round like it is supposed to go where they want it.  But that almost seems secondary sometimes to the fact of how fast we can shoot with a semi auto.  

So… does this bother anyone else?  Furthermore, I find myself wanting to slow every thing down.  I’m part of the problem.  When I shoot AR’s, I do the same thing.  I have to at least one time shoot rapidly for a couple of rounds and I find it really hard not to.  So I’m probably setting a bad example.  And even for me, what’s the point?   I suppose it should be seen as just having fun and blowing off steam, but for some reason it still bothers me.  

I’m debating on trying to focus our shooting around guns that aren’t semi’s.  Anybody else ran into this?  Just curious what you all think.  

I think there MIGHT even be some truth in it for us as adults and people that prepare for self defense situations.  I think being careful of every round you send is probably a very good thing.  I also think that having a reliable semi auto in a gunfight is probably the best weapon to have, but sometimes I lean to thinking that having a double action revolver or DAO pistol and pump action shotguns might not be a good way to go too.  Because it would make it difficult to send rounds all over the place.  

My step Dad was a police officer and he claimed that with shootings, even at spitting distances, there would be lots of misses and his advice was to always slow down and aim.  I’m not really sure I know if he knew what he was talking about.  I have no clue if he had that kind of an experience as a police officer.  He was kind of known to be a BSer.  And I wasn’t around when he was a police officer.  But there does kind of seem to be some wisdom in that.  

So…… let the flames begin……

it depends on the over all goal.   to create an Olympic class plinker or an individual who enjoys the shooting sports.

I started on a marlin bolt action with no mag shooting 22 shorts but soon graduated to a 10-22 yes I did alot of mag dumps but you can temper it by making your kids load thier own mags with no loader.  when we got our firstr precision 22 a shul that's when I learned the discipline of target shooting.IMO new shooters need to learn how hard a bullseye really is.

  A friend of mine owns a large ranch in SD with a 7 foot steel bufuffalo silhouettes at 900 & 1100yards.  We spent nearly 2 days making a special load and sighting the sharps repo he had in for the shot.  when we started getting consistent hits we were giggeling like school boys.  his wife came out loaded the gun and hit the 900 first shot "I don't see what the big deal is.  that was easy" she said

Lol my little brother always likes something semiauto and "powerful" over a bolt .22. He does like precision shooting and taking time for shots but I think he enjoys more rapid shooting. Not spraying rounds all over the dirt mound but shooting 2 inch walnuts at 50 yards over 1 inch circles at 100 yards. or sometimes just keeping shots on a silhouette.

I think its like some ones personality. Some people like blasting, some like precision shooting, some like to hit golf balls at 200 yards, some are happy shooting milk jugs at 50 yards.

Yes I think semi autos are more tempting to shoot fast or faster..that is kind of the purpose of a semi auto. If teaching precision shooting and marksmanship fundamentals I would definitely go with a bolt gun.

Me. I like everything. I can take my time and have discipline for precision shooting which I set my expectations very high or just blast away or rapid fire but keep all my shots on an 8 inch target.

Edit: Not sure about defensive shooting. I have thought about it but have not come to a conclusion. Hits are very important but how accurate? If you take and extra .2 seconds to aim(or aim better) and the bad guy fires first because of this and hits your arm it is probably not fatal but how well are you going to aim after that? Do you take the time to hit very close to the center of mass or get the first hit and go from there?

Let them have fun.  I like the idea of having them reload their own 10 rd magazines, but let them shoot.  When they get to the application part (getting ready to go hunting, competition) then work on the discipline part of their pursuit.  I think it is vitally important that we get as many kids into the sport and having fun with it as we can.  If that means blowing a brick of 22 shells a month, then so be it.  Safety first and always, however.

Doc

Good points doc, but my thing is I want them to learn how to hit what they're aiming at.  Not just sling lead.  Someday they might need to.  But I get you on the point of letting them have fun.  But yeah, safety is such a huge thing.  Sometimes when kids have too much fun, well adults too, we lose our heads and might not be thinking about safety as much as we should.  

 I need to start teaching them different positions and what a good one is.  Because right now they've been getting acquainted with just getting a good sight picture and aiming and all that from a bench.  When I start teaching them different positions, a repeater of some  sort makes sense, over just a single shot.  We have a rossi break action .22 that they were shooting last year more and then I moved them up to the 10/22.  The break action would kind of make teaching different positions a little bit harder.  Too much going on.  But a good repeating bolt action or lever would be nice.  Or I guess even the 10/22.  


This is what they were banging away at 100 yards the other day.  For some reason when I made the comment, "Osama been hidin"  that cracked them up.  It's funny what I find completely mundane and cliche they find to be funny.  Kids are great.  

I love to take my time when shooting, getting all the fundamentals in play and squeezing off a nice, 'perfect' shot.  I like action shooting, too, BTW.

One thing I do when shooting with a semiauto is to limit my mag capacity to the number of targets I'm shooting at.  So if I've got 4 steel targets downrange I load 4 rounds.  Works pretty well at keeping my head in the game since I want to hit every target and have no excess rounds to shoot with.

Another issue is .22lr is like vaporware.  I'm going to run out if we're not careful.  

.22LR single shot, Remington 514 and a single shot 20 gauge are what I learned on beginning at about 11 years of age.  I am 64 years old.

Even today, that is still the safest and best way to teach marksmanship skills.  I'm not saying the new shooter needs to stay wedded to that combo for a long time.  It depends on how they progress.  Each beginner will be different.   Even if graduating to a double or semiauto shotgun, it's best to give them only one shell at a time to begin with, and let them get used to the added heft and different stock mounting and pointing characterstics and location of safety and such before turning them loose with a magazine full of ammo.  Same thing with a semi-auto rifle of any kind.

Discipline is instilled in the shooter, not the gun. Having thirty rounds ready to roll is not, in and off itself, going to induce wasteful  shooting.

Personally, I don't get the whole shooting fast thing. I shot a full auto G36 as part of a 3 gun stage and was only happy cuz I hit what I needed to hit. It just doesn't do anything for me.

Anyway, maybe you can both get what you want. For every bullseye shot (or 2 or 5) you son makes, you allow a mag dump. He gets to have his fun while you teach him marksmanship. Reward the behavior you want to reinforce it!

Instead of worrying about it, do something. Like buy them a few bolt actions or single shots.  Our kid started off on a 10/22 and AR, her preference3 0 years later, revolvers and lever actions.

This is exactly what I was going to say.  Teach them not to pull the trigger until all of their ducks are in a row.  When I was in boot camp, if a shot went in the white or was a complete miss, the drill instructor would always ask why we took the shot.  If your vision goes blurry, the wind kicks up, your stability goes to crap, or whatever.  Stop, lower the rifle, take a breather and start the shooting fundamentals process over again.  It didn't matter that we had ten or thirty rounds in the magazine.  Don't take the shot until you are ready.

Sometimes it is just fun to blast away, but those should just be fun blasting sessions.  If you are truly practicing shooting, practice the fundamentals.  Speed, consistency and accuracy will come on its own if you are practicing the fundamentals.  It does not matter if you are using a single shot, bolt action, or semi-auto.

Exactly.





Hell, if I had a dollar for every time I've heard some one on here claim "it's the Indian not the arrow".



 

I am a old fart but not really into "the only way to teach a kid is with a single shot bolt action" school of thought.

As a parent , grandfather or whatever you are going to take care of safety , you are going to have the eye and ear protection these are givens.

After that I take as my goal to keep the range session fun and interesting .Of course you will need a gun that is short and light so the smaller kids can have half a chance . The  Ruger 10/22 with the standard barrel and a chopped stock is a good choice for many kids. Buy one with the plain wood stock and chop it back . When the kid gets bigger there are all sorts of aftermarket stocks for it.

The factory sights are difficult for the small kids , I have used a cheapo ret dot . Head position isn't critical and the single red dot is easier than lining up front and rear sights . put the red dot where you want the bullet to go - simple.

Balloons , crackers , nelco candy wafers are all good reactive targets. Don't forget the old school tin can .

Yeah I get that the kid isn't learning some of the finer points such as using iron sights , breath control and trigger control but that will come down the line as long as the kid is having fun and you keep their interest. Try to time the range trips when the weather is comfortable and don't do all day trips.

Kids by nature are pretty competitive and soon you will see them keeping track of how many targets they busted , at this point start to show them the fundamentals and how using them will allow them to hit stuff better . at some point as they get older pull the red dot and toss a set of peep sights on the rifle and show how it makes it easier to hit stuff.

Not the only way to do it but it is one of the ways it can work

Semi-autos are definitely a detriment to new shooters, especially for maintaining their interest.





You should introduce people to shooting with select-fire weapons. Those always hold their attention! I like to use MP5's due to their low recoil.





As has been said, I think safety is the most important thing. The rest depends on what specific goals people are trying to achieve. Let the new shooter set the goal. If they want to learn marksmanship, teach them marksmanship fundamentals and go from there. Tell them not to fire until they feel the shot is lined up as best they can maintain it. Anyone can fire slow or fast with any action type, even bolt actions. I feel a semi-automatic allows focusing purely on marksmanship as it takes action manipulation and handling out of the equation for the duration of the magazine. I believe each new skill should be learned one step at a time. If that should start with manipulation of parts and ammo, then go for it. My rule is that it starts with safety. Anything after that is "new shooter's choice."

 

Right, but discipline doesn't happen right away.  And sometimes part of discipline is just eliminating temptation all together.  Not necessarily the only way and always the right way, but is one way.  That's why alcoholics sometimes stay away from bars.  Etc, etc.

Dad strikes me as a control freak.

Install a joy of shooting first. Then They might want to learn more.

If you force them to do it your way from the beginning they will lose
interest and only remember how much of an ass their dad was.

Let him bang away. Then say hey can you hit that lollipop at 25 yards?

Discipline is having the ability and not acting on it, not removing the option outright.

Expose them to as many guns/calibers/actions as possible.  They'll gravitate to what they like.

I didn't take the gun away or tell him he couldn't shoot fast.  I did encourage him one time that range session to maybe slow down and take his time.  But I did not require it.  I let him bang away.  I'm just trying to lead and guide them in the best way possible to learn how to shoot well.  I'm not sure how that is "being a control freak".

It is very wise to be in tune with what your kids are doing at the range when they're handling deadly weapons.  At least I think so.

Right, but again, discipline is a process.  You don't typically master certain things the very first try.  And again, I'm not saying I won't let them shoot the 10/22.  I was just discussing if there isn't a better way.  Which there has been lots of good input on!   Thanks guys.

My daughter is almost 2, is she to young for me to start thinking about these things?

I actually almost used it as an excuse to pick up an AAC Mini 7 .300 bolt gun the other day!

A single shot is what u get an 8 year old IMO. At 11 and 13, a 10-22 is perfect, with occasional AR shooting and some fudd guns

You could take several magazines and force them to load one or two rounds at a time.  Or use some low powered ammo, like CCI quiets, where they will have to cycle the bolt by hand each time.  I still don't see how the semi-auto is to blame for anything.

My Dad taught me to shoot, and always told me that with everything, no one will remember how fast it took you, only how well you did. When I got my first bullseye at 25 yards he hung the target up in his shop. Being a kid, I always wanted to rapid fire (I also didn't have any idea what ammo cost) but when I got sloppy, which I always did, he never failed to kindly point out how poorly I did. My uncle was recently teaching his boy how to shoot and was starting pretty good but would sometimes jerk the trigger and send a few flyers low & left, so he taped a $5 bill on the target down and to the left of the bullseye and told him he could have it if he didn't put a hole in it.

LOL (about the 5 dollar bill)  That was a good teaching moment!  Did he get the 5 bucks?  

Thank you for solving two of my problems.  My 9 year old daughter likes to shoot fast, I try and discourage it, first by only 10 round mags, and last time loaded loaded only 5 but still does not help.  She is shooting with my old 10-22.  She really loves shooting so im more than happy about that, but we go through ammo way too fast.

My second problem is 22lr shortage, I had about 1000 rounds put away, when the wife granted me permissions to let me take our daughters to the range.  So I have started just buying any 22lr I can find for regular non gouging price just to keep her shooting.  I managed to pick up a bunch of boxes of cci22lr quiet for super cheap, but when I went out testing them they would not cycle correctly.  Im a lefty while running a regular bolt for centerfire is no problem, im not subjecting my self to that with my 10-22 after all these years. So I pulled all those boxes from my general circulation ammo box and was just going to stash them away in the dark recess of my shop cabinet.

 She is a righty, so your comment just solved my problem, i have plenty so it should be long enough to get her a few more fundamentals.  Im not sure why I didnt think about this most basic solution.  I will still hand her a bx25 at the end,  so she can have session mag dump it worth it for her grins.  Again the hive comes through with awsome solutions.

I start shooters on a .22 bolt action with the magazine removed or an empty tube, one at a time. Once they show they can hold their own I give more ammo. Semi's are for later.


I also think kids should learn to drive starting with a standard transmission. It forces them to concentrate more at the beginning. Can you see the looks on the faces of the "entitlement" generation these days if I told them that?

Three on the tree baby.  1975 Chevy Nova.  Straight 6.  My grandma let me take it (her car) out when I was only 14-15.  Things were different back then.  And really different back in her generation.  She lived out in the boonies, and I just went a little way down the road.  But dang did I love doing that.

Oh yeah. My first try with a stick was Dad's '71 Toyota Celica ST 4-speed. The first year it came out. Man that car could handle. I still miss it. It looked like this one except that it was midnight blue and had the old American Racing 5 hole aluminum mags on it.



OP: Sorry for the hijack.

Oh I bet that was a fun car to drive.  The imports were always easier to drive stick, imho.  And no probs on the hijack.  

There's been a lot of good advice.  I think I might try to find some of those quiets too.  That is a really good idea.  I could surprise them.  LOL.

New drivers have enough to worry about- distraction, road conditions, lack of acquired skill and experience- without having to coordinate shifting. And why bother when the chances are that they will never own or even know someone who owns a manual transmission?

For the record, I agree that starting shooters off nice and slow and focusing on the fundamentals is the way to roll, but a semi-auto is a certainly viable option for doing this. A bolt action or other repeater is not a requirement.

I disagree.  Bad habits are extremely hard to break.  Start them off right.  They need to learn strong fundamentals before bad habits become instinctive.

I shot my first gun at 5 years old (and still have it!), an iron sighted Remington 512, and it was a true epiphany for me. Launched me down the road to a great life in firearms.
I've debated this topic with others and thought about it long and hard myself and I do believe young folk need to grasp the fundamentals of sight picture and trigger control, breathing and 'calling ones shot's', hard to do with a semi auto burst. While they are fun for the young'uns every now and then to keep them interested, the basics are a building block to shooting skills.

I've recently started to teach my neighbors Son to shoot, his Father is a non shooter and the boy is 23 years old. He is facinated with guns and want to learn. so his Dad asked me to teach him, which made me very proud.
This young Man has some physical problems, he is almost completely deaf and in my opinion has been 'mollicodiled' his whole like because of this, he was picked on and bullied all his life thru school and ended up home schooled. He has 'self esteem' issues because of it
I took up this challenge and determiined to do it right. We started out in the house with books and alot of talking, safety points, firearms function and basic history and function. I can't tell you all how much this 'Kid' enjoyed it, he was very attentive and never once asked 'when to we get to shoot?', he truely wanted to learn.
Our first range trip I took the old 512 .22lr, a Marlin LA in .32wcf, another Marlin BA .22 and a 9mm Colt AR.
I started him off on the 512, diagramed the proper sight pic and all on paper, and let him go with careful supervision. He took to those iron sights like a duck to water!
When we worked ourselves up to the AR, he wasn't impressed, he wanted to spend more time learning on the SS 512. I can't tell you how much this impressed me. He asked good, intelligent questions and really paid attention. By days end he was tearing out the center of 50 yard targets with that old 512, didn't even want to bother with the the more modern guns.
This is the makings of a true 'shooter'.
So yes I believe that starting out with a SS, iron sighted gun and proper instruction lay the ground work for good shooting later in life.
RD

The 512 is bolt, aint it?  I'll go google it.  Thanks for the input.  That is a great post.  And good job on teaching a new shooter!

Yes, it is a basic 22LR bolt gun with iron sights.  I thought it had a tubular magazine, however, unlike the 514 I learned on over 50 years ago (and still have), which is a true single shot..

I let my son shoot as fast and as much as he wanted to until he asked me how to hit the target.
Once that happened, he took my instructions seriously.

Now two years later, he can go prone and hit a 4 inch ram at 200 yards with a .22 Savage Mark II FV-SR with a scope set at 10 power, supported, 8 out of 10 times.
He can also keep 10 rounds in 3 inches at 25 yards prone unsupported.
He's 9 years old.

He hasn't hunted yet, but he routinely practices at 50 yards with a chopped stock factory barreled 10/22 that will be his squirrel / rabbit gun. The same 4 inch ram from field positions. He hits that pretty regularly. He loves to hear the hit on steel and watch it spin.

The learning curve is progressing too. He is seeing what wind does and is actually starting to understand bullet trajectory.

We are just starting with pistol shooting, I was surprised that he likes to shoot on a timer.