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Posted: 10/15/2014 9:50:19 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not legal in Texas. or california 
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Posted: 10/19/2014 12:48:16 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
^^correct above^^ These are "firearms". A "firearm" made from a shotgun is an AOW. By legal definitions, an AOW can not be made from a shotgun, as a shotgun has had a stock installed at some point and AOW's must be made from receivers which have not had a stock installed at any point in their lives. (The only AOW's which can legally have stocks installed on them are combination guns with both rifled and smooth bore barrels between 12 to 18 inches which can require manual reloading, such as certain models of the Springfield M-6 Scout.) |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 3:04:58 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
By legal definitions, an AOW can not be made from a shotgun, as a shotgun has had a stock installed at some point and AOW's must be made from receivers which have not had a stock installed at any point in their lives. (The only AOW's which can legally have stocks installed on them are combination guns with both rifled and smooth bore barrels between 12 to 18 inches which can require manual reloading, such as certain models of the Springfield M-6 Scout.) Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
^^correct above^^ These are "firearms". A "firearm" made from a shotgun is an AOW. By legal definitions, an AOW can not be made from a shotgun, as a shotgun has had a stock installed at some point and AOW's must be made from receivers which have not had a stock installed at any point in their lives. (The only AOW's which can legally have stocks installed on them are combination guns with both rifled and smooth bore barrels between 12 to 18 inches which can require manual reloading, such as certain models of the Springfield M-6 Scout.) Again, "firearms" made from "shotguns" are AOWs. From USC: 2.1.2 Weapon made from a shotgun. A weapon made from a shotgun is a shotgun type weapon that has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 12:48:29 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Again, "firearms" made from "shotguns" are AOWs. From USC: 2.1.2 Weapon made from a shotgun. A weapon made from a shotgun is a shotgun type weapon that has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
^^correct above^^ These are "firearms". A "firearm" made from a shotgun is an AOW. By legal definitions, an AOW can not be made from a shotgun, as a shotgun has had a stock installed at some point and AOW's must be made from receivers which have not had a stock installed at any point in their lives. (The only AOW's which can legally have stocks installed on them are combination guns with both rifled and smooth bore barrels between 12 to 18 inches which can require manual reloading, such as certain models of the Springfield M-6 Scout.) Again, "firearms" made from "shotguns" are AOWs. From USC: 2.1.2 Weapon made from a shotgun. A weapon made from a shotgun is a shotgun type weapon that has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length. I'm not sure if I'm understanding what you are saying, but if the "shotgun" has ever had a buttstock installed allowing it to be fired from the shoulder, it is not legal to manufacture an AOW out of it. Even if you make it in a PGO configuration, it still has to be registered as a SBS, because it previously had a buttstock on it. Look at the Serbu Super Shorty models. I haven't checked their site in a long time because I make my own NFA toys, but last time I looked the Mossberg Super Shorty models were AOWs because they used PGO Mossys as the host. But PGO 870s were not available, so the Remington Super Shortys had to be registered as Short Barrelled Shotguns because they started life as 870s with buttstocks. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 12:57:58 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not sure if I'm understanding what you are saying, but if the "shotgun" has ever had a buttstock installed allowing it to be fired from the shoulder, it is not legal to manufacture an AOW out of it. Even if you make it in a PGO configuration, it still has to be registered as a SBS, because it previously had a buttstock on it. Look at the Serbu Super Shorty models. I haven't checked their site in a long time because I make my own NFA toys, but last time I looked the Mossberg Super Shorty models were AOWs because they used PGO Mossys as the host. But PGO 870s were not available, so the Remington Super Shortys had to be registered as Short Barrelled Shotguns because they started life as 870s with buttstocks. I'm not really sure what the debate is here, but I can say, because I own a completely custom made AOW, that the above information is indeed correct. Stock ever touched it...can't legally be an AOW. Only difference with a PGO firearm is semantics and overall length. My AOW (are remember it's a 3+1 is around 19". PGO's need to be 26". Same rules...can never have had a buttstock. Interesting observation though...if Mossberg and Remington sold the guns with the pistol grip attached and INCLUDED the stock in the box...pretty much every shotgun sold would be fair fame to make a PGO 14" barreled gun out of. Plus the smaller boxes mean they take up less inventory space, less cardboard, etc. Hell, even if they didn't install the stock it would be the same deal!!....so I'm guessing how they package/assemble out of the factory is VERY intentional. -Emt1581 |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 4:18:27 PM EDT
[#6]
Just curious - what's the benefit of getting one of these shotguns with the Shock Wave kit as opposed to a pistol grip shotgun like this one that is only 28.75" long?
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Posted: 10/19/2014 4:43:00 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Again, "firearms" made from "shotguns" are AOWs. From USC: 2.1.2 Weapon made from a shotgun. A weapon made from a shotgun is a shotgun type weapon that has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
By legal definitions, an AOW can not be made from a shotgun, as a shotgun has had a stock installed at some point and AOW's must be made from receivers which have not had a stock installed at any point in their lives. (The only AOW's which can legally have stocks installed on them are combination guns with both rifled and smooth bore barrels between 12 to 18 inches which can require manual reloading, such as certain models of the Springfield M-6 Scout.) Again, "firearms" made from "shotguns" are AOWs. From USC: 2.1.2 Weapon made from a shotgun. A weapon made from a shotgun is a shotgun type weapon that has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length. Let's look at the entire definition of a Firearm: (a) Firearm
The term “firearm” means (1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e); (6) a machinegun; (7) any silencer (as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and (8) a destructive device. The term “firearm” shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Secretary finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector’s item and is not likely to be used as a weapon. Now, having read that the definition includes both (2) and (5) "any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e)," it would stand to reason that they are not one and the same. But, let's go ahead and see what subsection (e) says: (e) Any other weapon
The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. The only ways for a firearm with a smooth bore to qualify as an AOW is for it to either also have a rifled barrel, with both barrels being more than 12" in length and less than 18" in length, and require manual reloading after each discharge; or, for it to be a pistol or revolver. Neither a pistol or revolver can have begun life with a stock, as that would make them rifles or shotguns. Shotguns, as defined in subsection (d): (d) Shotgun
The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell. ...are "intended to be fired from the shoulder...". Since shotguns are intended to be fired from the shoulder (as in, they have a shoulder stock) and pistols or revolvers can't have had a stock on them, a shotgun can't be made into an AOW. A shotgun can be made into a firearm made from a shotgun, but those aren't AOW's. You are confusing the fact that smooth bore pistols have the same barrels and fire the same rounds as shotguns or weapons made from shotguns with the definitions of AOW's, shotguns, and weapons made from a shotgun. If you made a smooth bore firearm with a shoulder stock, a barrel 18" or longer, and an overall length of 26" or longer, it would be a shotgun. (stock, bbl >/=18", and OAL >/=26") If you made a smooth bore firearm with a shoulder stock, a barrel shorter than 18", and an overall length of 26" or longer, it would be a short-barrel shotgun. (stock, bbl <18", and OAL >/=26") If you made a smooth bore firearm with a shoulder stock, a barrel 18" or longer, and an overall length shorter than 26", it would be a short-barrel shotgun. (stock, bbl >/=18", and OAL <26") If you made a smooth bore firearm which had never had a stock on it, with an 18" or longer barrel, and an overall length of 26" or longer, it would be simply be a firearm. (0 stock, bbl >/=18", and OAL >/=26") If you made a smooth bore firearm which had never had a stock on it, with a barrel less than 18", and an overall length of 26" or longer, it would simply be a firearm. (0 stock, bbl <18", and OAL >/=26") If you made a smooth bore firearm which had never had a stock on it, with a barrel less than 18", and an overall length less than 26", it would be an AOW. (0 stock, bbl <18", and OAL <18") |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 5:55:31 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just curious - what's the benefit of getting one of these shotguns with the Shock Wave kit as opposed to a pistol grip shotgun like this one that is only 28.75" long? One benefit to it is the felt recoil with the Shockwave Technologies grip is far less than a traditional vertical pistol grip. I have a factory 14" Mossy 590. I usually use a non-pistol grip Speedfeed buttstock but I sometimes use a Shockwave grip to play around with. I've fired everything from 7-1/2"-9" 2-3/4" light sport loads to 3" magnum buckshot loads. I hate firing heavy loads, even 2-3/4", with the factory vertical pistol grips but even the heaviest loads aren't a problem with the Shockwave. The other reason people don't want the JIC Mossy is because they want a 14" barrel, which would otherwise be an NFA item, without going through the tax stamp process. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 6:00:58 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
By legal definitions, an AOW can not be made from a shotgun, as a shotgun has had a stock installed at some point and AOW's must be made from receivers which have not had a stock installed at any point in their lives. (The only AOW's which can legally have stocks installed on them are combination guns with both rifled and smooth bore barrels between 12 to 18 inches which can require manual reloading, such as certain models of the Springfield M-6 Scout.) Again, "firearms" made from "shotguns" are AOWs. From USC: 2.1.2 Weapon made from a shotgun. A weapon made from a shotgun is a shotgun type weapon that has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length. Quote HistoryQuoted:
By legal definitions, an AOW can not be made from a shotgun, as a shotgun has had a stock installed at some point and AOW's must be made from receivers which have not had a stock installed at any point in their lives. (The only AOW's which can legally have stocks installed on them are combination guns with both rifled and smooth bore barrels between 12 to 18 inches which can require manual reloading, such as certain models of the Springfield M-6 Scout.) Again, "firearms" made from "shotguns" are AOWs. From USC: 2.1.2 Weapon made from a shotgun. A weapon made from a shotgun is a shotgun type weapon that has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length. Let's look at the entire definition of a Firearm: (a) Firearm
The term “firearm” means (1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e); (6) a machinegun; (7) any silencer (as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and (8) a destructive device. The term “firearm” shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Secretary finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector’s item and is not likely to be used as a weapon. Now, having read that the definition includes both (2) and (5) "any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e)," it would stand to reason that they are not one and the same. But, let's go ahead and see what subsection (e) says: (e) Any other weapon
The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. The only ways for a firearm with a smooth bore to qualify as an AOW is for it to either also have a rifled barrel, with both barrels being more than 12" in length and less than 18" in length, and require manual reloading after each discharge; or, for it to be a pistol or revolver. Neither a pistol or revolver can have begun life with a stock, as that would make them rifles or shotguns. Shotguns, as defined in subsection (d): (d) Shotgun
The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell. ...are "intended to be fired from the shoulder...". Since shotguns are intended to be fired from the shoulder (as in, they have a shoulder stock) and pistols or revolvers can't have had a stock on them, a shotgun can't be made into an AOW. A shotgun can be made into a firearm made from a shotgun, but those aren't AOW's. You are confusing the fact that smooth bore pistols have the same barrels and fire the same rounds as shotguns or weapons made from shotguns with the definitions of AOW's, shotguns, and weapons made from a shotgun. If you made a smooth bore firearm with a shoulder stock, a barrel 18" or longer, and an overall length of 26" or longer, it would be a shotgun. (stock, bbl >/=18", and OAL >/=26") If you made a smooth bore firearm with a shoulder stock, a barrel shorter than 18", and an overall length of 26" or longer, it would be a short-barrel shotgun. (stock, bbl <18", and OAL >/=26") If you made a smooth bore firearm with a shoulder stock, a barrel 18" or longer, and an overall length shorter than 26", it would be a short-barrel shotgun. (stock, bbl >/=18", and OAL <26") If you made a smooth bore firearm which had never had a stock on it, with an 18" or longer barrel, and an overall length of 26" or longer, it would be simply be a firearm. (0 stock, bbl >/=18", and OAL >/=26") If you made a smooth bore firearm which had never had a stock on it, with a barrel less than 18", and an overall length of 26" or longer, it would simply be a firearm. (0 stock, bbl <18", and OAL >/=26") If you made a smooth bore firearm which had never had a stock on it, with a barrel less than 18", and an overall length less than 26", it would be an AOW. (0 stock, bbl <18", and OAL <18") OK, I'll paraphrase this for everyone who doesn't want to read laws: If it ever had a buttstock installed, it can't be an AOW. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 10:20:44 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK, I'll paraphrase this for everyone who doesn't want to read laws: If it ever had a buttstock installed, it can't be an AOW. *Unless it's a break action double barrel shotgun that has had one barrel sleeved with a rifled bore. Then it can be registered as an AOW, have a stock, and the barrels can be between 12" and 18". |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 10:41:40 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
*Unless it's a break action double barrel shotgun that has had one barrel sleeved with a rifled bore. Then it can be registered as an AOW, have a stock, and the barrels can be between 12" and 18". Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
OK, I'll paraphrase this for everyone who doesn't want to read laws: If it ever had a buttstock installed, it can't be an AOW. *Unless it's a break action double barrel shotgun that has had one barrel sleeved with a rifled bore. Then it can be registered as an AOW, have a stock, and the barrels can be between 12" and 18". I'll run right out and build one of those. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 11:12:36 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Mossberg Seems like this guy thinks so long as his gun is 26.5" he's good to go. Yet the video is up, and all the comments are about how everyone wants to do what this guy did. Now I've got several NFA toys, one of which is a very nice custom made AOW. To the best of my knowledge, this guy with his unregistered 14" barrel, is basically committing a felony on youtube. Or am I missing something here?? Thanks -Emt1581 His IS illegal, bc he said he modded it. That ruling says that the receiver has to be virgin, never had a stock on it, just like ar lowers. You cant pop a sig brace and a pistol upper on your colt 6920 lower, becuase it was a rifle first. His mossberg that he made is illegal bc he removed the stock, (unless it was the pistol grip only model) |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 12:32:46 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
His IS illegal, bc he said he modded it. That ruling says that the receiver has to be virgin, never had a stock on it, just like ar lowers. You cant pop a sig brace and a pistol upper on your colt 6920 lower, becuase it was a rifle first. His mossberg that he made is illegal bc he removed the stock, (unless it was the pistol grip only model) Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Mossberg Seems like this guy thinks so long as his gun is 26.5" he's good to go. Yet the video is up, and all the comments are about how everyone wants to do what this guy did. Now I've got several NFA toys, one of which is a very nice custom made AOW. To the best of my knowledge, this guy with his unregistered 14" barrel, is basically committing a felony on youtube. Or am I missing something here?? Thanks -Emt1581 His IS illegal, bc he said he modded it. That ruling says that the receiver has to be virgin, never had a stock on it, just like ar lowers. You cant pop a sig brace and a pistol upper on your colt 6920 lower, becuase it was a rifle first. His mossberg that he made is illegal bc he removed the stock, (unless it was the pistol grip only model) He said that it was a Mossberg 500 JIC, or Just in Case. They all come with just a pistol grip. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:58:00 AM EDT
[#14]
so elongate the pistol grip so you can shorten the barrel and mag tube... just to save 2 inches?
take off 4 inches off the barrel and add to the pistol grip doesn't make sense |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 1:44:19 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: so elongate the pistol grip so you can shorten the barrel and mag tube... just to save 2 inches?
take off 4 inches off the barrel and add to the pistol grip doesn't make sense I used to have the same question - until I realized it makes liberals cry. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 3:47:18 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
so elongate the pistol grip so you can shorten the barrel and mag tube... just to save 2 inches?
take off 4 inches off the barrel and add to the pistol grip doesn't make sense The bird's head grip is much more comfortable to shoot than a traditional, vertical, pistol grip, as the shape allows it to 'roll' your wrist under recoil, rather than slam against it. |
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