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Posted: 7/30/2012 9:36:52 AM
[Last Edit: 8/5/2012 12:12:19 PM by DakotaFAL]
THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT It's not pretty but is shoots quite well and is actually a lot of fun. I wanted one for years but never found one when the timing was right, and decided today that I was not likely to find another one in as nice a condition anytime soon.
I used the USAF field expedient method of wrapping 550 paracord around the barrels to create a hand guard, partially for comfort (as the barrels do get hot) but mostly, to add a ready supply of 550 para cord to a rifle, since it will probably spend some time in the baggage compartment if I fly up in the frozen north again. I also ran 24 ft of paracord in 4 loops over 2 nails 36" apart (with one end through a sling swivel), and then wrapped it with 45 ft of paracord in a solomon bar to create a 36" sling - and increasing the total 550 paracord on the rifle to about 75'. I then grabbed some Super-X 2 1/2", 1/2 oz, 7 1/2 shot shells, and some .22 LR and headed to the range. The compartment in the butt holds four .410 shot shells and 15 rounds of .22 LR to feed both barrels.
Being an early model M6 it has no trigger guard - but has a variety of safety mechanisms. First the hammer has a safety notch that prevents it from going fully forward unless the trigger is still depressed, so it provides a back up in the event the hammer is jarred off the sear, or slips out from under your thumb on cocking. Second, the firing pin selector has an intermediate position where the hammer will not contact either firing pin, and it can be locked in this position by rotating the round selector knob. Third, it has a cross bolt safety that serves as a very solid hammer block. Finally, it has a hammer that must be manually cocked for each shot. The trigger is unconventional but the pull is pleasantly light. I started off shooting prone over a field expedient - my range bag. I figured it was pointless to test it over a rest and rear bag when I'd have neither in the real world. I used A-23 targets at 25 yards and I found that the peep sight shot about 1" low at that range with high velocity ammunition. That's good news as it means the front post can be filed down a bit to achieve the desired point of aim. Groups were not stellar by CZ standards but they ran around 1.25" with bulk ammo (Win 555 and Win Xpert HV, and were about an inch with both Win T-22 and Eley Target rifle. To be honest though, I think I am bumping up against the limits of of the sights rather than the rifle. Still, it's adequate accuracy for the role, and I noted no tendency for the zero to wander as the barrel warmed up. 10 shot groups showed basically no growth over a pair of 5 shot groups with a cool down in between. Below is a typical bulk ammo 25 yard group (Win 555 in this case).
I also patterned it at 10, 15 and 20 yards and found that the 10 yard group was quite tight - about the size of a 100 yard small bore target with good pattern density and more or less perfect for snakes. At 15 yards, the pattern expanded to cover an area equal to about four sheets of 8 1/2" x 11" paper and again showed pretty even coverage. At 20 yards, I was starting to lose pellets off the 32" x 24" target and the pattern was developing some holes, but it would still easily bring down a grouse sized bird. I thought it was actually pretty good performance for an 18" barreled .410. My thoughts are that I'll try some 3" 11/16 oz loads with 6 shot as with that load it should hopefully pattern a bit better at 20 yards and perhaps still be good to go on birds out to perhaps 25 yards. For firing the .410, it uses the other arm of the flip sight with a very open V notch sight for the shot gun barrel. As with the .22LR peep sight it shoots a bit below the point of aim, which is more good news as shortening the front sight will help bring both sights up to point of aim. My understanding is the later M6 Scouts had a rifled barrel that will accommodate .45 LC but while I'm a fan of the . 45 LC, the rifled barrel would really compromise pattern performance when used with bird shot. I will however try some slugs in it, and if accurate enough out to 50 yards, it might offer a larger game option. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 10:15:31 AM
That's cool, I've never heard of an M6 before. What did you pay for that? In my younger days I hunted squirrel with an old Savage .410/22 over/under and never appreciated the versatility of it til I got rid of it.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 10:36:39 AM
[Last Edit: 7/30/2012 10:58:29 AM by DakotaFAL]
The M6 replaced the WWII era bolt action .22 Hornet M4 in the early 1950s. The USAF version had a shorter 14" barrel, no cross bolt safety and a slightly more skeletonized stock, and was also chambered for .22 Hornet. The shorter barrel allowed it to fit in the seat pans and survival kits of the ejection seats of the era.
The civilian version has an 18" barrel to meet the minimum legal limit for shot gun barrel length in the US. It also has a cross bolt safety in addition to the other three safety systems, apparently for legal liability purposes. The later M6s also had a trigger guard but I personally don't see the need given the overall design of the weapon. Those later M6s are also intended as take down rifles, removing the pivot pin rather than having the rifle fold back on itself in large part because the trigger guard is now in the way and prevents it from fully folding. They are also drilled and tapped for a scope mount that again tends to move it farther way from the intended purpose. The bolt action AR-5 was also used during this time period, but the AR-7 was never adopted or used by the military. The AR-7 was a cheaper to produce semi-auto development of the AR-5 however and looks a lot like the AR-5 so former aircrew often see the AR-7 and mis-remember seeing it in survival kits when in fact they saw an AR-5. I basically paid $600 for it when all was said and done. That's the ball park going rate depending on condition for an early M6 - not a steal by any means but a fair market price as they are getting hard to find and tend to sell pretty fast when they show up. It's interesting as in 1998 they sold for $170. I wish I had bought several of them then. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 12:57:14 PM
Originally Posted By DakotaFAL:
I basically paid $600 for it Holy Jesus! I paid $180 OTD for mine 410/22 Hornet back around 2000. Damn.... Makes one wonder why no one, ESPECIALLY CZ, is importing more of them? |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 1:16:43 PM
Not to high jack the thread, but does the USAF? or any current branches still use survival guns?
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Posted: 7/30/2012 1:56:13 PM
Originally Posted By Bandag:
There was a rumor that Henry was going to produce them, but it's just that - an unfounded rumor.
Originally Posted By DakotaFAL:
I basically paid $600 for it Holy Jesus! I paid $180 OTD for mine 410/22 Hornet back around 2000. Damn.... Makes one wonder why no one, ESPECIALLY CZ, is importing more of them? I really liked the early SA M6, but I was not a big fan of where they went with it. The trigger guard negated the folding option and they made a side folder version with a pistol grip but it had a pretty hideous appearance. If Henry (or anyone else) made one and stayed close to the original, it would sell well. The response would be outstanding if they beefed it up a bit and chambered it for .223 or .22 Hornet, but with a chamber insert to allow .22 LR as well. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:12:45 PM
Originally Posted By Stlkid:
They generally go out of service when the aircraft they are on are retired from service. So, given that the B-52H is still in use, I suspect there are still M6 and/or AR5s on board them.
Not to high jack the thread, but does the USAF? or any current branches still use survival guns? I have no idea if the B-1 and B-2 have a survival rifle in the survival kit, but I'd be surprised if they did not. The idea was that bomber crews would be going places beyond the range of possible extraction and would have to escape and evade on foot living off the land and benefiting from a fairly quiet survival weapon. That along with size and weight considerations drove the caliber choice. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:36:01 PM
It is my understanding that the M4 Survival Rifle was more of a SAC issue item, while the M6 Survival Weapon was issued to TAC pilots. While the AR-5 was adopted by the USAF, it was never purchased in quantity. Trivia: Burton Miller developed the M4 Survival Rifle, consulted on the development of the AR-5, supervised the USAF's initial testing of the AR-15, and retired from the USAF in 1963 to become VP of ArmaLite.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 3:05:49 PM
[Last Edit: 7/30/2012 3:09:22 PM by DakotaFAL]
The M4 was a WWII development. The M6 replaced it in new aircraft beginning in 1951. As those older aircraft retired, so was the M4.
TAC versus SAC was more or less irrelevant as it was the size of the seat pan and survival kit in the ejection seat that mattered. None of them were overly large. In both cases, the driving focus was that pilots could be downed in remote areas (or just plain run out of fuel on a one way mission) and be in need of a survival rifle. I can see where the distinction would get blurry however. The F-105 for example was developed as a nuclear bomber designed around a long range hi-lo-hi mission profile, but by the time the bugs were worked out, it was just in time to become the workhorse TAC fighter bomber for use over North Vietnam. The AR-5 was not purchased in any great quantity as the USAF still had loads of M4s and had just procured the M6 5 years earlier by the time the AR-5 (MA-1) was developed in 1956. This is of course part of the appeal of the M6. You just don't see these types of historical discussions about a 10/22 or a derivative of a 10/22. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:44:58 PM
Originally Posted By Stlkid: Not to high jack the thread, but does the USAF? or any current branches still use survival guns? |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 5:08:49 PM
Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
Which M4? the WWII era bolt action or the more recent semi-auto carbine?
Originally Posted By Stlkid:
Not to high jack the thread, but does the USAF? or any current branches still use survival guns? |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 8:06:10 PM
I have one as well .22LR / .410 and use it for small game.
Its a good gun for what it is, I plan on keeping it in the family to pass on. Wish I would have bought two of them one for each kid. I need to purchase the case for it or have one made and I would like to get a pin with a lanyard for it, the stock pivot pin tends to walk out. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 10:23:23 PM
Nice old M6. If I am not mistaken, that is an early model having the cross bolt safety and lacking trigger guard and as such was manufactured in the US by Springfield Armory. The later CZ guns IIRC all had the trigger guard and lacked the cross bolt safety.They were clearly marked made in czech republic. If so I'd say the $600 price paid is right in line with today's market.
I bought a US-made M6 a few years ago [for a princely sum of $230.00] and have not been able to get any adequate groups with the .22 barrel. I have wrapped the barrels with paracord clear to the muzzle and wonder if the wrapping is applying adverse tension to the barrels. I've taken various small game with the .410 though and enjoy carrying the gun during small game season. There sure have been rumors of their re-emergence, but if I recall correctly, Springfield Armory still owns the rights to the production and after a falling out with CZ, have not given approval to anyone to resume production, which is a shame as the revised version that was on the cusp of being released had a side folding stock, proper grip and traditional trigger... |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 5:48:14 AM
I saw one of these a few days ago at the range. Baikal also do a nice (and currently in production?) combination gun, but they are quite large.
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Posted: 7/31/2012 10:07:31 AM
Originally Posted By haliaetus:
My understanding is that they were all "made" by CZ - the difference perhaps being where the parts were assembled on the earlier SA marked versions. Mine is marked Springfield Armory, Geneseo Il, but I suspect al that means is that it was assembled there with parts made under contract by CZ.
Nice old M6. If I am not mistaken, that is an early model having the cross bolt safety and lacking trigger guard and as such was manufactured in the US by Springfield Armory. The later CZ guns IIRC all had the trigger guard and lacked the cross bolt safety.They were clearly marked made in czech republic. If so I'd say the $600 price paid is right in line with today's market. I bought a US-made M6 a few years ago [for a princely sum of $230.00] and have not been able to get any adequate groups with the .22 barrel. I have wrapped the barrels with paracord clear to the muzzle and wonder if the wrapping is applying adverse tension to the barrels. I've taken various small game with the .410 though and enjoy carrying the gun during small game season. There sure have been rumors of their re-emergence, but if I recall correctly, Springfield Armory still owns the rights to the production and after a falling out with CZ, have not given approval to anyone to resume production, which is a shame as the revised version that was on the cusp of being released had a side folding stock, proper grip and traditional trigger... I like the original trigger. I hear complaints from people who find the squeeze grip trigger concept difficult, but the answer to that is pretty simple - just move your hand back a bit and used the curved bit at the end like a regular trigger with your index finger. If you add a side folding stock, a pistol grip and a conventional trigger, then you've in effect just created a side folding stocked superposed .22/.410 rifle/shotgun and it's no longer really a backpack/survival rifle. You just as well polish it up, give it a nice blued finish and a petty wooden hand guard while you are at it. I can see room for both versions but I'd prefer they at least produce the original as well. |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 10:14:42 AM
Originally Posted By Anaxes:
Rossi and Savage also made .22/.410 combos and they are pretty commonly encountered.
I saw one of these a few days ago at the range. Baikal also do a nice (and currently in production?) combination gun, but they are quite large. With a youth sized stock, they make a nice choice for a starter rifle and shotgun, but I don't see them marketed for that purpose anymore. |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 10:24:30 AM
You go the early one without the trigger guard. Good score.
I sold both mine when the price went through the roof. |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 7:47:04 PM
sidefolder never released:
i think it still fits the role. can be fired folded. i just rather it was a straight .410 not rifled for 45 LC. |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 9:38:05 PM
Originally Posted By haliaetus:
They adapted that from their equally ugly (IMHO) looking pistol, which had the same rifled .410 barrel configuration.
sidefolder never released: http://www.gunshopfinder.com/springfield/M69601.jpg i think it still fits the role. can be fired folded. i just rather it was a straight .410 not rifled for 45 LC. |
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Posted: 8/5/2012 12:10:34 PM
[Last Edit: 8/5/2012 12:16:43 PM by DakotaFAL]
I took the M6 to the range today to shoot off a proper rest and to file the front sight down a bit to bring it up to POA at 25 yards.
I got busy with other stuff and elected not to make the adjustment, but did decide to fire a group at 50 yards to see how it shot there. I took 4 shots, then looked through the spotting scope and was amazed to see a very nice 4 shot group just over .5" center to center. I then took the 5th shot and screwed it up with what I thought was a flyer that opened it up to about 1.25" center to center. But still not bad at 50 yards for a survival rifle.
I took 5 more shots and discovered that the flyer was in fact more the norm once the barrel warmed up. It's still not a bad group at 2.6" center to center for a survival rifle with a very lightweight barrel.
The implications for a survival rifle are significant however as it will be the first couple of shots that matter most and this kind of accuracy with the first 4-5 rounds is re-assuring. Based on this I've also elected to adjust the sight to be on point of aim at 50 yards rather than 25. The change in POI at 25 yards will be minimal and the rifle is accurate enough to benefit from the longer zero. ––––- I should add that this is on an A23/5 with the point of aim at 6 0'clock on the 1 and 2 bulls above the 3 and 4 bulls where the rounds are landing - so it is shooting about 5.25" low at 50 yards. |
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