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KnightofTheOldeCode
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Posted: 11/19/2010 3:43:28 PM

Which would serve the dual role of moderate range whitetail and smaller game hunting as well be an effective 300 hundred yard
defensive cartridge. Opinions appreciated.


Also feel free to speak to 7.62x39 as a semi auto substitue for the 30-30
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USMCRONIN
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Posted: 11/19/2010 4:04:10 PM
Any round you can safely use to take down a deer will take down a unarmored man.

I think an SKS would be a great option to a 30/30
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Posted: 11/19/2010 4:38:53 PM
If budget is in mind... a SKS or a Decent used Marlin 336 should do the job.

.30-30 is a awesome cartridge, and most definitely will stop a man and take down a deer.

the 7.62x39mm is a more affordable round, and about just as good for taking down a man and a deer.

As to where the 7.62 is a more economical round... there is something about my .30-30 that makes me smile when I shoot it.

and about the .223 .... it will most definitely take down a man, and with good shot placement it can take down a deer (with limitations) but I would say it's an Ideal Deer Cartridge. Definitely doable though.
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Posted: 11/19/2010 4:52:18 PM
I'd rather have the AR in a defensive situation and the 30-30 in a hunting situation.

AR15 has better ergonomics, faster rate of fire, more accurate (Or easier to be accurate) and faster reload.

30-30 has better terminal ballistics for deer, but is usually a lever action so slower to fire and slower to reload. I wouldnt necessarily feel undergunned with a 30-30 depending on who I was defending against though. Just some hoodrats looking for an easy mark I'd feel fine. But a determined well armed foe? I'd be wishing for my AR right quick I think. An SKS does a decent job of bridging some of the shortcoming between the 30-30 and the AR though. I loved my SKS, I wouldnt feel undergunned with it in most situations.

My thoughts.
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C-S
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Posted: 11/19/2010 4:58:15 PM
Originally Posted By Specop_007:
I'd rather have the AR in a defensive situation and the 30-30 in a hunting situation.

AR15 has better ergonomics, faster rate of fire, more accurate (Or easier to be accurate) and faster reload.

30-30 has better terminal ballistics for deer, but is usually a lever action so slower to fire and slower to reload. I wouldnt necessarily feel undergunned with a 30-30 depending on who I was defending against though. Just some hoodrats looking for an easy mark I'd feel fine. But a determined well armed foe? I'd be wishing for my AR right quick I think. An SKS does a decent job of bridging some of the shortcoming between the 30-30 and the AR though. I loved my SKS, I wouldnt feel undergunned with it in most situations.

My thoughts.


I agree with his post for the most part...

especially the part in red.
mike_nds
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Posted: 11/19/2010 5:10:59 PM
Get an AR for your primary, and a Handi rifle in 30/30 or .308 as the food gathering gun.

It can be taken down into a small package and be fitted with a shotgun barrel also.
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coyotebait
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Posted: 11/19/2010 6:17:11 PM
I don't know what your version of SHTF is, but mine does NOT include electricity to keep meat edible. So for me, I will have to make sure that what I kill I can eat that day. Other, bigger predators will smell the left over remains of a deer and will invite themselves over for dinner. I see far more rabbits, squirrels, snakes, and other small game animals than I do deer and antelope. 30-30 wouldn't leave anything left of the small game. If a deer presents it' self, a 223 will take it down, just can't take a 500 yard shot on it. If you can carry both, then go for it, but if I have to pick between the 2 I'm going with the 223. Plus, you can carry twice as much 223 than the 30-30. (based on the weight of the cartridge.)
jhc
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Posted: 11/19/2010 8:21:42 PM
Shot hogs with my ar in Texas with no problem. If it will kill a hog it will kill a man.
SilentType
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Posted: 11/19/2010 11:19:46 PM
30-30 for deer. Wouldn't use .223/5.56.
Unicorn
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Posted: 11/20/2010 3:52:52 AM
Originally Posted By coyotebait:
I don't know what your version of SHTF is, but mine does NOT include electricity to keep meat edible. So for me, I will have to make sure that what I kill I can eat that day. Other, bigger predators will smell the left over remains of a deer and will invite themselves over for dinner. I see far more rabbits, squirrels, snakes, and other small game animals than I do deer and antelope. 30-30 wouldn't leave anything left of the small game. If a deer presents it' self, a 223 will take it down, just can't take a 500 yard shot on it. If you can carry both, then go for it, but if I have to pick between the 2 I'm going with the 223. Plus, you can carry twice as much 223 than the 30-30. (based on the weight of the cartridge.)


I'd also consider a .22 LR conversion and a few boxes of ammo. Increase the versatility of the gun.
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coyotebait
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Posted: 11/20/2010 3:17:26 PM
Originally Posted By Unicorn:
Originally Posted By coyotebait:
I don't know what your version of SHTF is, but mine does NOT include electricity to keep meat edible. So for me, I will have to make sure that what I kill I can eat that day. Other, bigger predators will smell the left over remains of a deer and will invite themselves over for dinner. I see far more rabbits, squirrels, snakes, and other small game animals than I do deer and antelope. 30-30 wouldn't leave anything left of the small game. If a deer presents it' self, a 223 will take it down, just can't take a 500 yard shot on it. If you can carry both, then go for it, but if I have to pick between the 2 I'm going with the 223. Plus, you can carry twice as much 223 than the 30-30. (based on the weight of the cartridge.)


I'd also consider a .22 LR conversion and a few boxes of ammo. Increase the versatility of the gun.


True story
coyotebait
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Posted: 11/20/2010 3:32:10 PM
Originally Posted By Unicorn:
Originally Posted By coyotebait:
I don't know what your version of SHTF is, but mine does NOT include electricity to keep meat edible. So for me, I will have to make sure that what I kill I can eat that day. Other, bigger predators will smell the left over remains of a deer and will invite themselves over for dinner. I see far more rabbits, squirrels, snakes, and other small game animals than I do deer and antelope. 30-30 wouldn't leave anything left of the small game. If a deer presents it' self, a 223 will take it down, just can't take a 500 yard shot on it. If you can carry both, then go for it, but if I have to pick between the 2 I'm going with the 223. Plus, you can carry twice as much 223 than the 30-30. (based on the weight of the cartridge.)


I'd also consider a .22 LR conversion and a few boxes of ammo. Increase the versatility of the gun.


Sorry to get off topic. but is surplusammo.com yours?
Furyataurus
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Posted: 11/20/2010 6:53:15 PM
[Last Edit: 11/20/2010 6:53:35 PM by Furyataurus]
1-3 threats I'd go with a 30-30; +3 threats = my MSAR.

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Specop_007
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Posted: 11/20/2010 7:02:21 PM
Originally Posted By Furyataurus:
1-3 threats I'd go with a 30-30; +3 threats = my MSAR.



I think anything over 1 threat you better have the AR. I think 3+ threats you better hope you have something involving high explosives.
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22mike
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Posted: 11/20/2010 7:24:12 PM
Originally Posted By Unicorn:
Originally Posted By coyotebait:
I don't know what your version of SHTF is, but mine does NOT include electricity to keep meat edible. So for me, I will have to make sure that what I kill I can eat that day. Other, bigger predators will smell the left over remains of a deer and will invite themselves over for dinner. I see far more rabbits, squirrels, snakes, and other small game animals than I do deer and antelope. 30-30 wouldn't leave anything left of the small game. If a deer presents it' self, a 223 will take it down, just can't take a 500 yard shot on it. If you can carry both, then go for it, but if I have to pick between the 2 I'm going with the 223. Plus, you can carry twice as much 223 than the 30-30. (based on the weight of the cartridge.)


I'd also consider a .22 LR conversion and a few boxes of ammo. Increase the versatility of the gun.

For SHTF and survival the above is very true. A newer 580 series Mini-14 would work too.

DerekCB
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Posted: 11/21/2010 8:48:14 AM
Originally Posted By KnightofTheOldeCode:

Which would serve the dual role of moderate range whitetail and smaller game hunting as well be an effective 300 hundred yard
defensive cartridge. Opinions appreciated.


Also feel free to speak to 7.62x39 as a semi auto substitue for the 30-30


A 6.8 carbine would do nicely for those roles. You best be damn accurate if you're gonna shoot a squirrel though at least if you want any meat.
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airgunner
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Posted: 11/21/2010 10:09:23 PM
The problem with comparing the .223/5.56 vs. the 30-30 is not only are you comparing calibers but also platforms. I don't know of a lever action 223's and I can't think of any semi-auto 30-30's?

That said, to answer your question. I've standardized on the .5.56mm and the AR-15 as my caliber/platform choice for SD and small-medium game but I must say that there are a lot of factors that went into that decision and it's not just about what the "best caliber" is. Availability, commonality, cost, availability and not just of the round but of the platform I'm going to run it in all need to be factored in IMO.

If I was going to pick a caliber based simply on it's performance and characteristics then I would have gone with the 6.8mm SPC
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LuvBUSHmaster
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Posted: 11/22/2010 9:07:55 AM
.30-30 is a great cartridge but somewhat more difficult (expensive) to stock up on it quantities desired for long term planning.
7.62x39 gives you most of the good qualities of the thirty-thirty but cheaper and the ability to put it in an affordable and reliable auto-loading carbine.
5.56x45mm gives you the most of the good qualities of the x39 except barrier penetration and is nearly the same price. It works in a wide variety of firearms and can provide excellent terminal ballistics with the proper bullet selection/barrel length.

I've personally chosen to use 5.56 as my primary since its lighter = carry more ammo. Its faster for follow up shots and the round is potent enough for the distances that I'm most likely going to be using a rifle for...

I also have x39 ammo and rifles just because they are affordable and don't feel the need to only have just one caliber/platform. Variety is the spice of life. I also have a Marlin 336 in .30-30' among many other calibers/rifles. I've found thirty thirty ammo is cheapest after deer season. I've found ads of people selling partially full boxes, 18rds or so for as little as $5 or less. Some stores put em on clearance when they get overstocked. Reloading helps as well towards keeping a good supply of .30-30' on hand. Get all 3
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Zamo
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Posted: 11/22/2010 1:52:24 PM
I don't think you should limit yourself to just those two choices. Why not look at an AR in 6.8 SPC, or even a .308 rifle like a FAL, M1A, PTR-91, AR-10 or SCAR17S?
I have lots of rifles, and just laid out a lot of change to get the SCAR, and while spendy, it fits your criteria EXACTLY. If it's beyond budget, as I mentioned there are numerous other options.
The 5.56 is pretty anemic for whitetail, and isn't even legal in some states. .308 is a prime deer cartridge.
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Posted: 11/22/2010 2:37:37 PM
Originally Posted By Zamo:
I don't think you should limit yourself to just those two choices. Why not look at an AR in 6.8 SPC, or even a .308 rifle like a FAL, M1A, PTR-91, AR-10 or SCAR17S?
I have lots of rifles, and just laid out a lot of change to get the SCAR, and while spendy, it fits your criteria EXACTLY. If it's beyond budget, as I mentioned there are numerous other options.
The 5.56 is pretty anemic for whitetail, and isn't even legal in some states. .308 is a prime deer cartridge.


It's my understanding that this is a shit hits the fan scenario, society has collapsed in some form and now the O.P. is on his own in a survival situation. Therefore, the legality of White tail hunting with 223 does not apply.
Zamo
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Posted: 11/22/2010 11:14:09 PM
[Last Edit: 11/22/2010 11:15:33 PM by Zamo]
Doesn't matter. You're now wasting ammo and animals by wounding one that will wander all over hell's half acre and probably never be recovered. *OR* You're going to be burning precious starving calories tracking the bleeding thing over hill and dale. Best to use the proper cartridge, not a varmint load. Bring enough gun.
If money is tight, as it is everywhere these days, does it really make sense to buy a gun that's only purpose is as a SHTF gun for some hypothetical doomsday that will never happen, or a rifle a person can actually use all the time RIGHT NOW?
Having said that, I stick by my original recommendation and recommend a 7.62x51 NATO battle rifle as encompassing the best of both worlds.
coyotebait
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Posted: 11/22/2010 11:51:46 PM
How long is that deer going to keep before it goes bad and all that meat is wasted, or a bigger predator pops up. I'm thinking you're better off taking small game. My thoughts are maximum amount of ammo, minimal weight. The op didn't name a specific scenario so this whole conversation is difficult to nail down any tactics. If someones talking about a SHTF situation, I picture having to bug out quickly. In that situation, your gun and ammo aren't the only thing you have to carry. Like I said in an earlier post, I picture not having refrigeration for any large kills. With that said. If I don't have to bug out then that's a completely different scenario all together. I also have made sure that I have plenty of ammo for everything I have because when/if it happens, you just don't know what you'll be able to grab. (depending on the "event")
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Posted: 11/23/2010 9:20:05 AM
[Last Edit: 11/23/2010 9:32:05 AM by LuvBUSHmaster]
Originally Posted By Zamo:
Doesn't matter. You're now wasting ammo and animals by wounding one that will wander all over hell's half acre and probably never be recovered. *OR* You're going to be burning precious starving calories tracking the bleeding thing over hill and dale. Best to use the proper cartridge, not a varmint load. Bring enough gun.
If money is tight, as it is everywhere these days, does it really make sense to buy a gun that's only purpose is as a SHTF gun for some hypothetical doomsday that will never happen, or a rifle a person can actually use all the time RIGHT NOW?
Having said that, I stick by my original recommendation and recommend a 7.62x51 NATO battle rifle as encompassing the best of both worlds.


So do you have alot of SP hunting ammo for your "NATO battle rifle"?

Because if you don't then I'd rather hunt a deer with M193 Ball out of a bone stock A2 configured AR-15 than try and launch some M80 ball outta a "NATO battle rifle" at a deer for food gathering purposes post-balloon going up.

The M-193 ball will fragment inside the deer and provide a better chance of destroying the boiler room of the deer than the terminal ballistics of say Port or SA M80 ball in the same deer.

If using some 64 gr Power Points or Federal Fusion type bullets out of an AR, even more the better.

The whole point I'm making is that bullet selection and shot placement are many many times more important than using a "NATO battle rifle" or some Springfield Armory ad line of "bring enough gun".

AR with proper bullet > M80 ball outta a "NATO battle rifle" for almost everything except barrier penetration.

ETA:
I've got a STG-58 FAL as well as an AR-10 and a PSL among other .30cal auto loading rifles.

I like the extra power of the ,30cal rifles, however they incur such a weight penalty on ammo, mags, and the rifle itself that they are mostly regulated to static uses for me. I've been hiking and hunting with rifles before, they get heavy fast, especially after the 2 or 3rd mile or the 2nd or 3rh hour of walking around with it in your arms. And that was with just a hunting mag (5 or 10 rd mag) and maybe a few extra cartridges in the pack with a light day pack full of basic stuff that I take when I go outdoors (FA kit, water, matches, map/compass, etc). If I had to haul some serious bug out gear with me, carrying my FAL with the DSA flat top with an Eotech 552 along with 15 loaded mags sounds like hell. I'll take my M4 the same amount of mags and more ammo for less weight.
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Zamo
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Posted: 11/23/2010 10:24:32 AM
[Last Edit: 11/23/2010 10:25:11 AM by Zamo]
Yes, I have ample ammo for all my firearms, but what I stock isn't the point. I have enough weapons and ammo that I probably wouldn't need to carry an AR or a "NATO Battle Rifle" to hunt deer in some fantasy post-apocalyptic zombie zone. I don't think anything like that will ever happen, as I have faith in our nations ability to weather just about anything, and while I enjoy the genre in fiction, I don't really have the insecurity to spend thousands of dollars preparing specifically for it, or worse, advocating that other people do with their money on internet forums.
My point was, that as a nation-wide "SHTF" scenario is far less likely to happen than being killed in an auto accident, or dying of prostate cancer, the OP's money might be better spent buying a rifle he can more effectively use in the real world, where deer hunting with a 5.56 is either illegal, or at the very least not very humain.
As to bringing enough gun, you're going to use your M80 against bruins I suppose too? A .308 drops 'em like lead. There are plenty out this way, and they make a fine food source. They are also somewhat of a threat as a woman found out two weeks ago when she was mauled by a black bear 100 yards from my where my brother used to live in Gig Harbor. It happens. 180 gr. or even 147 gr. is a lot more comforting than 55, 62, or 70 gr.
You are right about humping a larger rifle and ammo, that's why I recently put my money where my mouth is and sold my M1A to buy a Scar-17s, and that (weight) was the biggest deciding factor. I wanted to go deer hunting this last October with a "NATO battle rifle" and knew from experience that both my M1A and FAL would be a bitch to hump, especially after they were scoped. So I bought the Scar. Too bad it arrived too late for deer season.
My point is, in a day-to-day reality for most of us, especially if you have to live with one rifle, the 5.56 is, despite it's popularity and use by our armed forces, kind of anemic, and .308 is a much more robust choice. If not that then 6.8Rem SPC or 6.5 Grendal if you must, but 5.56 is best used for punching paper, coyotes, rabbits, feral dogs, or Talibans. But as more and more people are finding out, the advantage of it's light weight is being seen to be over-rated in theater because you often have to plug a target two or three times to make them stay down. Not as much an issue with a larger round. If I had my druthers, we'd still be shooting 30-06 in our combat rifles (yes I know 7.62x51 is a near ballistic match for the -06, but it didn't prove itself against Nazi Germany, or the Empire of Japan now did it?)
Reading this, I may sound as if I am ardently opposed to the 5.56 cartdridge, I am not. I own several AR's in various configurations and wouldn't hesitate to grab any one of them in a "SHTF" scenario if I had to, but GIVEN THE CHOICE, I don't think they are the single BEST choice for an all around rifle, which is the intent of the OP. Home defense yes, game gathering, not really.
Oh, and yes, Luv, I concur, bullet choice and shot placement are much more important than the launcher, but you make my point elloquently, several months, or years down the road, when grass is growing through the pavement, and cannibals have scrounged all the ammo lying about, it's going to be easier to find .308 hunting ammo in the ruins of small town USA than exotic 5.56 one-offs like Power Points or Federal Fusions. Good if you got 'em, not so if you don't. .308 is also easier to reload than 5.56 too, in my experience. But if you are planning to live that long, better have a bow and arrow stock piled as well.
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Posted: 11/23/2010 12:24:07 PM
I also enjoy the "lone survivor" concept in fiction, however I believe in safety in numbers. Depending on how far you' are from your camp or shelter, a hunting party might be more sensible, especially when it comes to dragging a deer or other larger food source back to camp. Same applies if you find yourself in a sticky situation. With two or more people, you can ambush an invader, or give an attacker more than they bargained for.

Depending on the locale, trapping small game may be more economical than wasting precious ammo.

Regarding the question of .308 hunting ammo, would it be possible with a 147gr FMJ to file the tip off, and turn it into flat-tipped soft point?
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Posted: 11/23/2010 5:36:15 PM
[Last Edit: 11/23/2010 5:38:04 PM by Ermac]
Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:
Originally Posted By Zamo:
Doesn't matter. You're now wasting ammo and animals by wounding one that will wander all over hell's half acre and probably never be recovered. *OR* You're going to be burning precious starving calories tracking the bleeding thing over hill and dale. Best to use the proper cartridge, not a varmint load. Bring enough gun.
If money is tight, as it is everywhere these days, does it really make sense to buy a gun that's only purpose is as a SHTF gun for some hypothetical doomsday that will never happen, or a rifle a person can actually use all the time RIGHT NOW?
Having said that, I stick by my original recommendation and recommend a 7.62x51 NATO battle rifle as encompassing the best of both worlds.


So do you have alot of SP hunting ammo for your "NATO battle rifle"?

Because if you don't then I'd rather hunt a deer with M193 Ball out of a bone stock A2 configured AR-15 than try and launch some M80 ball outta a "NATO battle rifle" at a deer for food gathering purposes post-balloon going up.

The M-193 ball will fragment inside the deer and provide a better chance of destroying the boiler room of the deer than the terminal ballistics of say Port or SA M80 ball in the same deer.

If using some 64 gr Power Points or Federal Fusion type bullets out of an AR, even more the better.

The whole point I'm making is that bullet selection and shot placement are many many times more important than using a "NATO battle rifle" or some Springfield Armory ad line of "bring enough gun".

AR with proper bullet > M80 ball outta a "NATO battle rifle" for almost everything except barrier penetration.

ETA:
I've got a STG-58 FAL as well as an AR-10 and a PSL among other .30cal auto loading rifles.

I like the extra power of the ,30cal rifles, however they incur such a weight penalty on ammo, mags, and the rifle itself that they are mostly regulated to static uses for me. I've been hiking and hunting with rifles before, they get heavy fast, especially after the 2 or 3rd mile or the 2nd or 3rh hour of walking around with it in your arms. And that was with just a hunting mag (5 or 10 rd mag) and maybe a few extra cartridges in the pack with a light day pack full of basic stuff that I take when I go outdoors (FA kit, water, matches, map/compass, etc). If I had to haul some serious bug out gear with me, carrying my FAL with the DSA flat top with an Eotech 552 along with 15 loaded mags sounds like hell. I'll take my M4 the same amount of mags and more ammo for less weight.

Won't fragmenting bullets destroy the meat though? That doesn't sound like something I want. German 7.62x51 fragments.

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