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Buckeye Firearms Association Leaders Volunteer Co.
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Posted: 11/19/2010 10:43:28 AM EST

Which would serve the dual role of moderate range whitetail and smaller game hunting as well be an effective 300 hundred yard
defensive cartridge. Opinions appreciated.


Also feel free to speak to 7.62x39 as a semi auto substitue for the 30-30
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Posted: 11/19/2010 11:04:10 AM EST
Any round you can safely use to take down a deer will take down a unarmored man.

I think an SKS would be a great option to a 30/30
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Posted: 11/19/2010 11:38:53 AM EST
If budget is in mind... a SKS or a Decent used Marlin 336 should do the job.

.30-30 is a awesome cartridge, and most definitely will stop a man and take down a deer.

the 7.62x39mm is a more affordable round, and about just as good for taking down a man and a deer.

As to where the 7.62 is a more economical round... there is something about my .30-30 that makes me smile when I shoot it.

and about the .223 .... it will most definitely take down a man, and with good shot placement it can take down a deer (with limitations) but I would say it's an Ideal Deer Cartridge. Definitely doable though.
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Posted: 11/19/2010 11:52:18 AM EST
I'd rather have the AR in a defensive situation and the 30-30 in a hunting situation.

AR15 has better ergonomics, faster rate of fire, more accurate (Or easier to be accurate) and faster reload.

30-30 has better terminal ballistics for deer, but is usually a lever action so slower to fire and slower to reload. I wouldnt necessarily feel undergunned with a 30-30 depending on who I was defending against though. Just some hoodrats looking for an easy mark I'd feel fine. But a determined well armed foe? I'd be wishing for my AR right quick I think. An SKS does a decent job of bridging some of the shortcoming between the 30-30 and the AR though. I loved my SKS, I wouldnt feel undergunned with it in most situations.

My thoughts.
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Posted: 11/19/2010 11:58:15 AM EST
Originally Posted By Specop_007:
I'd rather have the AR in a defensive situation and the 30-30 in a hunting situation.

AR15 has better ergonomics, faster rate of fire, more accurate (Or easier to be accurate) and faster reload.

30-30 has better terminal ballistics for deer, but is usually a lever action so slower to fire and slower to reload. I wouldnt necessarily feel undergunned with a 30-30 depending on who I was defending against though. Just some hoodrats looking for an easy mark I'd feel fine. But a determined well armed foe? I'd be wishing for my AR right quick I think. An SKS does a decent job of bridging some of the shortcoming between the 30-30 and the AR though. I loved my SKS, I wouldnt feel undergunned with it in most situations.

My thoughts.


I agree with his post for the most part...

especially the part in red.
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Posted: 11/19/2010 12:10:59 PM EST
Yes, our parts are tight, we did that on purpose.


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Posted: 11/19/2010 1:17:11 PM EST
I don't know what your version of SHTF is, but mine does NOT include electricity to keep meat edible. So for me, I will have to make sure that what I kill I can eat that day. Other, bigger predators will smell the left over remains of a deer and will invite themselves over for dinner. I see far more rabbits, squirrels, snakes, and other small game animals than I do deer and antelope. 30-30 wouldn't leave anything left of the small game. If a deer presents it' self, a 223 will take it down, just can't take a 500 yard shot on it. If you can carry both, then go for it, but if I have to pick between the 2 I'm going with the 223. Plus, you can carry twice as much 223 than the 30-30. (based on the weight of the cartridge.)
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Posted: 11/19/2010 3:21:42 PM EST
Shot hogs with my ar in Texas with no problem. If it will kill a hog it will kill a man.
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Posted: 11/19/2010 6:19:46 PM EST
30-30 for deer. Wouldn't use .223/5.56.
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Posted: 11/19/2010 10:52:52 PM EST
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Posted: 11/20/2010 10:17:26 AM EST
Originally Posted By Unicorn:
Originally Posted By coyotebait:
I don't know what your version of SHTF is, but mine does NOT include electricity to keep meat edible. So for me, I will have to make sure that what I kill I can eat that day. Other, bigger predators will smell the left over remains of a deer and will invite themselves over for dinner. I see far more rabbits, squirrels, snakes, and other small game animals than I do deer and antelope. 30-30 wouldn't leave anything left of the small game. If a deer presents it' self, a 223 will take it down, just can't take a 500 yard shot on it. If you can carry both, then go for it, but if I have to pick between the 2 I'm going with the 223. Plus, you can carry twice as much 223 than the 30-30. (based on the weight of the cartridge.)


I'd also consider a .22 LR conversion and a few boxes of ammo. Increase the versatility of the gun.


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Posted: 11/20/2010 10:32:10 AM EST
Originally Posted By Unicorn:
Originally Posted By coyotebait:
I don't know what your version of SHTF is, but mine does NOT include electricity to keep meat edible. So for me, I will have to make sure that what I kill I can eat that day. Other, bigger predators will smell the left over remains of a deer and will invite themselves over for dinner. I see far more rabbits, squirrels, snakes, and other small game animals than I do deer and antelope. 30-30 wouldn't leave anything left of the small game. If a deer presents it' self, a 223 will take it down, just can't take a 500 yard shot on it. If you can carry both, then go for it, but if I have to pick between the 2 I'm going with the 223. Plus, you can carry twice as much 223 than the 30-30. (based on the weight of the cartridge.)


I'd also consider a .22 LR conversion and a few boxes of ammo. Increase the versatility of the gun.


Sorry to get off topic. but is surplusammo.com yours?
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Posted: 11/20/2010 1:53:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/20/2010 1:53:35 PM EST by Furyataurus]
1-3 threats I'd go with a 30-30; +3 threats = my MSAR.

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Posted: 11/20/2010 2:02:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By Furyataurus:
1-3 threats I'd go with a 30-30; +3 threats = my MSAR.



I think anything over 1 threat you better have the AR. I think 3+ threats you better hope you have something involving high explosives.
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Posted: 11/20/2010 2:24:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By Unicorn:
Originally Posted By coyotebait:
I don't know what your version of SHTF is, but mine does NOT include electricity to keep meat edible. So for me, I will have to make sure that what I kill I can eat that day. Other, bigger predators will smell the left over remains of a deer and will invite themselves over for dinner. I see far more rabbits, squirrels, snakes, and other small game animals than I do deer and antelope. 30-30 wouldn't leave anything left of the small game. If a deer presents it' self, a 223 will take it down, just can't take a 500 yard shot on it. If you can carry both, then go for it, but if I have to pick between the 2 I'm going with the 223. Plus, you can carry twice as much 223 than the 30-30. (based on the weight of the cartridge.)


I'd also consider a .22 LR conversion and a few boxes of ammo. Increase the versatility of the gun.

For SHTF and survival the above is very true. A newer 580 series Mini-14 would work too.

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Posted: 11/21/2010 3:48:14 AM EST
Originally Posted By KnightofTheOldeCode:

Which would serve the dual role of moderate range whitetail and smaller game hunting as well be an effective 300 hundred yard
defensive cartridge. Opinions appreciated.


Also feel free to speak to 7.62x39 as a semi auto substitue for the 30-30


A 6.8 carbine would do nicely for those roles. You best be damn accurate if you're gonna shoot a squirrel though at least if you want any meat.
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Posted: 11/21/2010 5:09:23 PM EST
The problem with comparing the .223/5.56 vs. the 30-30 is not only are you comparing calibers but also platforms. I don't know of a lever action 223's and I can't think of any semi-auto 30-30's?

That said, to answer your question. I've standardized on the .5.56mm and the AR-15 as my caliber/platform choice for SD and small-medium game but I must say that there are a lot of factors that went into that decision and it's not just about what the "best caliber" is. Availability, commonality, cost, availability and not just of the round but of the platform I'm going to run it in all need to be factored in IMO.

If I was going to pick a caliber based simply on it's performance and characteristics then I would have gone with the 6.8mm SPC
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Posted: 11/22/2010 4:07:55 AM EST
.30-30 is a great cartridge but somewhat more difficult (expensive) to stock up on it quantities desired for long term planning.
7.62x39 gives you most of the good qualities of the thirty-thirty but cheaper and the ability to put it in an affordable and reliable auto-loading carbine.
5.56x45mm gives you the most of the good qualities of the x39 except barrier penetration and is nearly the same price. It works in a wide variety of firearms and can provide excellent terminal ballistics with the proper bullet selection/barrel length.

I've personally chosen to use 5.56 as my primary since its lighter = carry more ammo. Its faster for follow up shots and the round is potent enough for the distances that I'm most likely going to be using a rifle for...

I also have x39 ammo and rifles just because they are affordable and don't feel the need to only have just one caliber/platform. Variety is the spice of life. I also have a Marlin 336 in .30-30' among many other calibers/rifles. I've found thirty thirty ammo is cheapest after deer season. I've found ads of people selling partially full boxes, 18rds or so for as little as $5 or less. Some stores put em on clearance when they get overstocked. Reloading helps as well towards keeping a good supply of .30-30' on hand. Get all 3
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Posted: 11/22/2010 8:52:24 AM EST
I don't think you should limit yourself to just those two choices. Why not look at an AR in 6.8 SPC, or even a .308 rifle like a FAL, M1A, PTR-91, AR-10 or SCAR17S?
I have lots of rifles, and just laid out a lot of change to get the SCAR, and while spendy, it fits your criteria EXACTLY. If it's beyond budget, as I mentioned there are numerous other options.
The 5.56 is pretty anemic for whitetail, and isn't even legal in some states. .308 is a prime deer cartridge.
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Posted: 11/22/2010 9:37:37 AM EST
Originally Posted By Zamo:
I don't think you should limit yourself to just those two choices. Why not look at an AR in 6.8 SPC, or even a .308 rifle like a FAL, M1A, PTR-91, AR-10 or SCAR17S?
I have lots of rifles, and just laid out a lot of change to get the SCAR, and while spendy, it fits your criteria EXACTLY. If it's beyond budget, as I mentioned there are numerous other options.
The 5.56 is pretty anemic for whitetail, and isn't even legal in some states. .308 is a prime deer cartridge.


It's my understanding that this is a shit hits the fan scenario, society has collapsed in some form and now the O.P. is on his own in a survival situation. Therefore, the legality of White tail hunting with 223 does not apply.
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Posted: 11/22/2010 6:14:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/22/2010 6:15:33 PM EST by Zamo]
Doesn't matter. You're now wasting ammo and animals by wounding one that will wander all over hell's half acre and probably never be recovered. *OR* You're going to be burning precious starving calories tracking the bleeding thing over hill and dale. Best to use the proper cartridge, not a varmint load. Bring enough gun.
If money is tight, as it is everywhere these days, does it really make sense to buy a gun that's only purpose is as a SHTF gun for some hypothetical doomsday that will never happen, or a rifle a person can actually use all the time RIGHT NOW?
Having said that, I stick by my original recommendation and recommend a 7.62x51 NATO battle rifle as encompassing the best of both worlds.
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Posted: 11/22/2010 6:51:46 PM EST
How long is that deer going to keep before it goes bad and all that meat is wasted, or a bigger predator pops up. I'm thinking you're better off taking small game. My thoughts are maximum amount of ammo, minimal weight. The op didn't name a specific scenario so this whole conversation is difficult to nail down any tactics. If someones talking about a SHTF situation, I picture having to bug out quickly. In that situation, your gun and ammo aren't the only thing you have to carry. Like I said in an earlier post, I picture not having refrigeration for any large kills. With that said. If I don't have to bug out then that's a completely different scenario all together. I also have made sure that I have plenty of ammo for everything I have because when/if it happens, you just don't know what you'll be able to grab. (depending on the "event")
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Posted: 11/23/2010 4:20:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/23/2010 4:32:05 AM EST by LuvBUSHmaster]
Originally Posted By Zamo:
Doesn't matter. You're now wasting ammo and animals by wounding one that will wander all over hell's half acre and probably never be recovered. *OR* You're going to be burning precious starving calories tracking the bleeding thing over hill and dale. Best to use the proper cartridge, not a varmint load. Bring enough gun.
If money is tight, as it is everywhere these days, does it really make sense to buy a gun that's only purpose is as a SHTF gun for some hypothetical doomsday that will never happen, or a rifle a person can actually use all the time RIGHT NOW?
Having said that, I stick by my original recommendation and recommend a 7.62x51 NATO battle rifle as encompassing the best of both worlds.


So do you have alot of SP hunting ammo for your "NATO battle rifle"?

Because if you don't then I'd rather hunt a deer with M193 Ball out of a bone stock A2 configured AR-15 than try and launch some M80 ball outta a "NATO battle rifle" at a deer for food gathering purposes post-balloon going up.

The M-193 ball will fragment inside the deer and provide a better chance of destroying the boiler room of the deer than the terminal ballistics of say Port or SA M80 ball in the same deer.

If using some 64 gr Power Points or Federal Fusion type bullets out of an AR, even more the better.

The whole point I'm making is that bullet selection and shot placement are many many times more important than using a "NATO battle rifle" or some Springfield Armory ad line of "bring enough gun".

AR with proper bullet > M80 ball outta a "NATO battle rifle" for almost everything except barrier penetration.

ETA:
I've got a STG-58 FAL as well as an AR-10 and a PSL among other .30cal auto loading rifles.

I like the extra power of the ,30cal rifles, however they incur such a weight penalty on ammo, mags, and the rifle itself that they are mostly regulated to static uses for me. I've been hiking and hunting with rifles before, they get heavy fast, especially after the 2 or 3rd mile or the 2nd or 3rh hour of walking around with it in your arms. And that was with just a hunting mag (5 or 10 rd mag) and maybe a few extra cartridges in the pack with a light day pack full of basic stuff that I take when I go outdoors (FA kit, water, matches, map/compass, etc). If I had to haul some serious bug out gear with me, carrying my FAL with the DSA flat top with an Eotech 552 along with 15 loaded mags sounds like hell. I'll take my M4 the same amount of mags and more ammo for less weight.
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Posted: 11/23/2010 5:24:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/23/2010 5:25:11 AM EST by Zamo]
Yes, I have ample ammo for all my firearms, but what I stock isn't the point. I have enough weapons and ammo that I probably wouldn't need to carry an AR or a "NATO Battle Rifle" to hunt deer in some fantasy post-apocalyptic zombie zone. I don't think anything like that will ever happen, as I have faith in our nations ability to weather just about anything, and while I enjoy the genre in fiction, I don't really have the insecurity to spend thousands of dollars preparing specifically for it, or worse, advocating that other people do with their money on internet forums.
My point was, that as a nation-wide "SHTF" scenario is far less likely to happen than being killed in an auto accident, or dying of prostate cancer, the OP's money might be better spent buying a rifle he can more effectively use in the real world, where deer hunting with a 5.56 is either illegal, or at the very least not very humain.
As to bringing enough gun, you're going to use your M80 against bruins I suppose too? A .308 drops 'em like lead. There are plenty out this way, and they make a fine food source. They are also somewhat of a threat as a woman found out two weeks ago when she was mauled by a black bear 100 yards from my where my brother used to live in Gig Harbor. It happens. 180 gr. or even 147 gr. is a lot more comforting than 55, 62, or 70 gr.
You are right about humping a larger rifle and ammo, that's why I recently put my money where my mouth is and sold my M1A to buy a Scar-17s, and that (weight) was the biggest deciding factor. I wanted to go deer hunting this last October with a "NATO battle rifle" and knew from experience that both my M1A and FAL would be a bitch to hump, especially after they were scoped. So I bought the Scar. Too bad it arrived too late for deer season.
My point is, in a day-to-day reality for most of us, especially if you have to live with one rifle, the 5.56 is, despite it's popularity and use by our armed forces, kind of anemic, and .308 is a much more robust choice. If not that then 6.8Rem SPC or 6.5 Grendal if you must, but 5.56 is best used for punching paper, coyotes, rabbits, feral dogs, or Talibans. But as more and more people are finding out, the advantage of it's light weight is being seen to be over-rated in theater because you often have to plug a target two or three times to make them stay down. Not as much an issue with a larger round. If I had my druthers, we'd still be shooting 30-06 in our combat rifles (yes I know 7.62x51 is a near ballistic match for the -06, but it didn't prove itself against Nazi Germany, or the Empire of Japan now did it?)
Reading this, I may sound as if I am ardently opposed to the 5.56 cartdridge, I am not. I own several AR's in various configurations and wouldn't hesitate to grab any one of them in a "SHTF" scenario if I had to, but GIVEN THE CHOICE, I don't think they are the single BEST choice for an all around rifle, which is the intent of the OP. Home defense yes, game gathering, not really.
Oh, and yes, Luv, I concur, bullet choice and shot placement are much more important than the launcher, but you make my point elloquently, several months, or years down the road, when grass is growing through the pavement, and cannibals have scrounged all the ammo lying about, it's going to be easier to find .308 hunting ammo in the ruins of small town USA than exotic 5.56 one-offs like Power Points or Federal Fusions. Good if you got 'em, not so if you don't. .308 is also easier to reload than 5.56 too, in my experience. But if you are planning to live that long, better have a bow and arrow stock piled as well.
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Posted: 11/23/2010 7:24:07 AM EST
I also enjoy the "lone survivor" concept in fiction, however I believe in safety in numbers. Depending on how far you' are from your camp or shelter, a hunting party might be more sensible, especially when it comes to dragging a deer or other larger food source back to camp. Same applies if you find yourself in a sticky situation. With two or more people, you can ambush an invader, or give an attacker more than they bargained for.

Depending on the locale, trapping small game may be more economical than wasting precious ammo.

Regarding the question of .308 hunting ammo, would it be possible with a 147gr FMJ to file the tip off, and turn it into flat-tipped soft point?
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Posted: 11/23/2010 12:36:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/23/2010 12:38:04 PM EST by Ermac]
Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:
Originally Posted By Zamo:
Doesn't matter. You're now wasting ammo and animals by wounding one that will wander all over hell's half acre and probably never be recovered. *OR* You're going to be burning precious starving calories tracking the bleeding thing over hill and dale. Best to use the proper cartridge, not a varmint load. Bring enough gun.
If money is tight, as it is everywhere these days, does it really make sense to buy a gun that's only purpose is as a SHTF gun for some hypothetical doomsday that will never happen, or a rifle a person can actually use all the time RIGHT NOW?
Having said that, I stick by my original recommendation and recommend a 7.62x51 NATO battle rifle as encompassing the best of both worlds.


So do you have alot of SP hunting ammo for your "NATO battle rifle"?

Because if you don't then I'd rather hunt a deer with M193 Ball out of a bone stock A2 configured AR-15 than try and launch some M80 ball outta a "NATO battle rifle" at a deer for food gathering purposes post-balloon going up.

The M-193 ball will fragment inside the deer and provide a better chance of destroying the boiler room of the deer than the terminal ballistics of say Port or SA M80 ball in the same deer.

If using some 64 gr Power Points or Federal Fusion type bullets out of an AR, even more the better.

The whole point I'm making is that bullet selection and shot placement are many many times more important than using a "NATO battle rifle" or some Springfield Armory ad line of "bring enough gun".

AR with proper bullet > M80 ball outta a "NATO battle rifle" for almost everything except barrier penetration.

ETA:
I've got a STG-58 FAL as well as an AR-10 and a PSL among other .30cal auto loading rifles.

I like the extra power of the ,30cal rifles, however they incur such a weight penalty on ammo, mags, and the rifle itself that they are mostly regulated to static uses for me. I've been hiking and hunting with rifles before, they get heavy fast, especially after the 2 or 3rd mile or the 2nd or 3rh hour of walking around with it in your arms. And that was with just a hunting mag (5 or 10 rd mag) and maybe a few extra cartridges in the pack with a light day pack full of basic stuff that I take when I go outdoors (FA kit, water, matches, map/compass, etc). If I had to haul some serious bug out gear with me, carrying my FAL with the DSA flat top with an Eotech 552 along with 15 loaded mags sounds like hell. I'll take my M4 the same amount of mags and more ammo for less weight.

Won't fragmenting bullets destroy the meat though? That doesn't sound like something I want. German 7.62x51 fragments.

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Posted: 12/20/2010 9:39:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/20/2010 9:50:51 AM EST by SecurityForcesmember]
Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:
Originally Posted By Zamo:
Doesn't matter. You're now wasting ammo and animals by wounding one that will wander all over hell's half acre and probably never be recovered. *OR* You're going to be burning precious starving calories tracking the bleeding thing over hill and dale. Best to use the proper cartridge, not a varmint load. Bring enough gun.
If money is tight, as it is everywhere these days, does it really make sense to buy a gun that's only purpose is as a SHTF gun for some hypothetical doomsday that will never happen, or a rifle a person can actually use all the time RIGHT NOW?
Having said that, I stick by my original recommendation and recommend a 7.62x51 NATO battle rifle as encompassing the best of both worlds.


So do you have alot of SP hunting ammo for your "NATO battle rifle"?

Because if you don't then I'd rather hunt a deer with M193 Ball out of a bone stock A2 configured AR-15 than try and launch some M80 ball outta a "NATO battle rifle" at a deer for food gathering purposes post-balloon going up.

The M-193 ball will fragment inside the deer and provide a better chance of destroying the boiler room of the deer than the terminal ballistics of say Port or SA M80 ball in the same deer.

If using some 64 gr Power Points or Federal Fusion type bullets out of an AR, even more the better.

The whole point I'm making is that bullet selection and shot placement are many many times more important than using a "NATO battle rifle" or some Springfield Armory ad line of "bring enough gun".

AR with proper bullet > M80 ball outta a "NATO battle rifle" for almost everything except barrier penetration.

ETA:
I've got a STG-58 FAL as well as an AR-10 and a PSL among other .30cal auto loading rifles.

I like the extra power of the ,30cal rifles, however they incur such a weight penalty on ammo, mags, and the rifle itself that they are mostly regulated to static uses for me. I've been hiking and hunting with rifles before, they get heavy fast, especially after the 2 or 3rd mile or the 2nd or 3rh hour of walking around with it in your arms. And that was with just a hunting mag (5 or 10 rd mag) and maybe a few extra cartridges in the pack with a light day pack full of basic stuff that I take when I go outdoors (FA kit, water, matches, map/compass, etc). If I had to haul some serious bug out gear with me, carrying my FAL with the DSA flat top with an Eotech 552 along with 15 loaded mags sounds like hell. I'll take my M4 the same amount of mags and more ammo for less weight.



If he reloads like I do, I'm betting hes got a couple thousand rounds of suitable .308 hunting ammo. I reload .308 a lot, M118LR clones being the most I produce, but I load as much 155 and 178 AMAX as I can, and I load them to safe levels for gas guns. Fantastic on paper, at disance, and on people too. Pretty much the cats meow.

Enough with that "but my M-193 fragments" BS. That argument has a VERY short effective range for what someone might say is "garunteed" fragmentation. M80 Ball ammunition (or M-193 for that matter) through the should/Head/Lungs will kill the same as a Remington Core-Lokt in .308...

The "you can't carry as much .223 as me" is as right as it is stupid. What are you doing fucking around with needing more than a few mags in some sort of SHTF scenario? The more you shoot, the more attention your getting. I personally assure you of that. I'm set with 4 mags in pouches, and one in the rifle. Thats OVERKILL to me. I better not need that much. If its long term, I aint going anywhere for a freaking while. Like at least a week. Bugging out is rarely a good idea, and scooting around your hood living out your Red Dawn dreams wearing 300 rounds (in any caliber)is retarded.

Go to where it has ACTUALLY hit the fan, and your going to notice a couple things.

1. They carry what they can get, and they make do. If its a fucking K98, so be it. Some ragheads can shoot irons. I suggest you (as in all of us) do the same.

2. They rarely have more than a few magazines. That goes for civvies, police, terrorists, and the military. You really don't need more than 4 or 5 mags of ammo, plain and simple.

People don't like to fight, especially with guns. Even "hardened" guys are wanting it over with quickly. Folks start running, and it gets chaotic. Before long, the fight peters out. I'm not talking about taking Pork Chop Hill, I'm talking day to day America. Take 300 rounds of 556 and applicable gear out running sometime and your going to see just what I mean. I'm fit, run my 6:45-7:00 minute mile, and I get tuckered out quickly with all that shit.
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Posted: 12/20/2010 9:42:08 AM EST
Originally Posted By Zamo:
Yes, I have ample ammo for all my firearms, but what I stock isn't the point. I have enough weapons and ammo that I probably wouldn't need to carry an AR or a "NATO Battle Rifle" to hunt deer in some fantasy post-apocalyptic zombie zone. I don't think anything like that will ever happen, as I have faith in our nations ability to weather just about anything, and while I enjoy the genre in fiction, I don't really have the insecurity to spend thousands of dollars preparing specifically for it, or worse, advocating that other people do with their money on internet forums.
My point was, that as a nation-wide "SHTF" scenario is far less likely to happen than being killed in an auto accident, or dying of prostate cancer, the OP's money might be better spent buying a rifle he can more effectively use in the real world, where deer hunting with a 5.56 is either illegal, or at the very least not very humain.
As to bringing enough gun, you're going to use your M80 against bruins I suppose too? A .308 drops 'em like lead. There are plenty out this way, and they make a fine food source. They are also somewhat of a threat as a woman found out two weeks ago when she was mauled by a black bear 100 yards from my where my brother used to live in Gig Harbor. It happens. 180 gr. or even 147 gr. is a lot more comforting than 55, 62, or 70 gr.
You are right about humping a larger rifle and ammo, that's why I recently put my money where my mouth is and sold my M1A to buy a Scar-17s, and that (weight) was the biggest deciding factor. I wanted to go deer hunting this last October with a "NATO battle rifle" and knew from experience that both my M1A and FAL would be a bitch to hump, especially after they were scoped. So I bought the Scar. Too bad it arrived too late for deer season.
My point is, in a day-to-day reality for most of us, especially if you have to live with one rifle, the 5.56 is, despite it's popularity and use by our armed forces, kind of anemic, and .308 is a much more robust choice. If not that then 6.8Rem SPC or 6.5 Grendal if you must, but 5.56 is best used for punching paper, coyotes, rabbits, feral dogs, or Talibans. But as more and more people are finding out, the advantage of it's light weight is being seen to be over-rated in theater because you often have to plug a target two or three times to make them stay down. Not as much an issue with a larger round. If I had my druthers, we'd still be shooting 30-06 in our combat rifles (yes I know 7.62x51 is a near ballistic match for the -06, but it didn't prove itself against Nazi Germany, or the Empire of Japan now did it?)
Reading this, I may sound as if I am ardently opposed to the 5.56 cartdridge, I am not. I own several AR's in various configurations and wouldn't hesitate to grab any one of them in a "SHTF" scenario if I had to, but GIVEN THE CHOICE, I don't think they are the single BEST choice for an all around rifle, which is the intent of the OP. Home defense yes, game gathering, not really.
Oh, and yes, Luv, I concur, bullet choice and shot placement are much more important than the launcher, but you make my point elloquently, several months, or years down the road, when grass is growing through the pavement, and cannibals have scrounged all the ammo lying about, it's going to be easier to find .308 hunting ammo in the ruins of small town USA than exotic 5.56 one-offs like Power Points or Federal Fusions. Good if you got 'em, not so if you don't. .308 is also easier to reload than 5.56 too, in my experience. But if you are planning to live that long, better have a bow and arrow stock piled as well.



Plenty of other people have felt the wrath of the 7.62 NATO round. Its the same diameter, almost identical in weight to its M2 -06 counterpart, and flies at the same velocity. Its in use by every NATO country, a few still issuing it as their primary infantry caliber. Its effective.

And a bow/arrow cannot be over looked(unless you've got a real nice suppressor).
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Posted: 12/20/2010 10:45:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/20/2010 10:55:51 AM EST by LuvBUSHmaster]
Originally Posted By SecurityForcesmember:
Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:
Originally Posted By Zamo:
Doesn't matter. You're now wasting ammo and animals by wounding one that will wander all over hell's half acre and probably never be recovered. *OR* You're going to be burning precious starving calories tracking the bleeding thing over hill and dale. Best to use the proper cartridge, not a varmint load. Bring enough gun.
If money is tight, as it is everywhere these days, does it really make sense to buy a gun that's only purpose is as a SHTF gun for some hypothetical doomsday that will never happen, or a rifle a person can actually use all the time RIGHT NOW?
Having said that, I stick by my original recommendation and recommend a 7.62x51 NATO battle rifle as encompassing the best of both worlds.


So do you have alot of SP hunting ammo for your "NATO battle rifle"?

Because if you don't then I'd rather hunt a deer with M193 Ball out of a bone stock A2 configured AR-15 than try and launch some M80 ball outta a "NATO battle rifle" at a deer for food gathering purposes post-balloon going up.

The M-193 ball will fragment inside the deer and provide a better chance of destroying the boiler room of the deer than the terminal ballistics of say Port or SA M80 ball in the same deer.

If using some 64 gr Power Points or Federal Fusion type bullets out of an AR, even more the better.

The whole point I'm making is that bullet selection and shot placement are many many times more important than using a "NATO battle rifle" or some Springfield Armory ad line of "bring enough gun".

AR with proper bullet > M80 ball outta a "NATO battle rifle" for almost everything except barrier penetration.

ETA:
I've got a STG-58 FAL as well as an AR-10 and a PSL among other .30cal auto loading rifles.

I like the extra power of the ,30cal rifles, however they incur such a weight penalty on ammo, mags, and the rifle itself that they are mostly regulated to static uses for me. I've been hiking and hunting with rifles before, they get heavy fast, especially after the 2 or 3rd mile or the 2nd or 3rh hour of walking around with it in your arms. And that was with just a hunting mag (5 or 10 rd mag) and maybe a few extra cartridges in the pack with a light day pack full of basic stuff that I take when I go outdoors (FA kit, water, matches, map/compass, etc). If I had to haul some serious bug out gear with me, carrying my FAL with the DSA flat top with an Eotech 552 along with 15 loaded mags sounds like hell. I'll take my M4 the same amount of mags and more ammo for less weight.



If he reloads like I do, I'm betting hes got a couple thousand rounds of suitable .308 hunting ammo. I reload .308 a lot, M118LR clones being the most I produce, but I load as much 155 and 178 AMAX as I can, and I load them to safe levels for gas guns. Fantastic on paper, at disance, and on people too. Pretty much the cats meow.

Enough with that "but my M-193 fragments" BS. M193 does fragment out of 16" - 20" barrels at the ranges that are likely to be used for in self defense, as in short range shooting. That argument has a VERY short effective range for what someone might say is "garunteed" fragmentationShort range is the range that things are gonna happen at. Sorry, your not going to be shooting people at 500+ yards. You are responsible for every round you send down range. Sooner or later you're gonna have to account for what you've done. Have fun explaining why you shoorting people at 500+ yards to a grand jury a year or two after everything gets sorted out.. M80 Ball ammunition (or M-193 for that matter) through the should/Head/Lungs will kill the same as a Remington Core-Lokt in .308...This doesn't really bolster your point. Shot placement is key whether its a 22lr or a .308 175gr BTHP. You can carry a lot more M193 or M855 than anytype of .308 loading. That is a fact. And if you only feel that you need 200rds of ammo, 200rds of 5.56 is ALWAYS gonna weigh less. Less weight = more options. I've carried heavy packs in different climates. Heavy packs suck. Given the option I will always opt for lighter equipment as long as its still viable.

The "you can't carry as much .223 as me" is as right as it is stupid. What? Seriously, when did I type you can't carry as much .223 as me? My point is that round per round, 5.56 is a weight savings compared to .308. Its just a simple fact.What are you doing fucking around with needing more than a few mags in some sort of SHTF scenario? I've no idea if or when resupply will be possible. If I don't have it with me, it doesn't exist. I don't plan on shooting anyone. Once bullets start being traded, all bets are off. I've got the ammo and mags because its better to have them as options then to need them and not have them. I can always discard them or cache them or just not use. Or just decide to not bring them/use them if I have to bug out. The more you shoot, possession does not imply intent in this case. Cause I've got a hundred loaded PMAGs doesn't mean that I intend to shoot 100rd mags at people when shtfthe more attention your getting. Who disputed this?I personally assure you of that Well thanks for your personal assurance on that.. I'm set with 4 mags in pouches, and one in the rifle. Thats OVERKILL to me. Opinions are like asses, everyone has one. Great, rock on with your 100rds of ammo. Good for you. I plan on keeping more on hand. And if I am using only 100rd of 5.56 in mags, its still a lighter load than what you've brought.I better not need that much. If its long term, I aint going anywhere for a freaking while. Like at least a week. Bugging out is rarely a good idea, and scooting around your hood living out your Red Dawn dreams wearing 300 rounds (in any caliber)is retarded. I'm not leaving unless radiation is wiping out my town. This is my house, and all of it is mine and my families. We've got little kids, we aren't about to pull the pin on living like nomads or roughing it until we absolutely must do that. I cannot carry much stuff compared to what I have at my finger tips here at home. Bugging out is the absolute worst/last case for us.

Go to where it has ACTUALLY hit the fan, and your going to notice a couple things.

1. They carry what they can get, and they make do. If its a fucking K98, so be it. Some ragheads can shoot irons. I suggest you (as in all of us) do the same.

2. They rarely have more than a few magazines. That goes for civvies, police, terrorists, and the military. You really don't need more than 4 or 5 mags of ammo, plain and simple.

People don't like to fight, especially with guns. Even "hardened" guys are wanting it over with quickly. Folks start running, and it gets chaotic. Before long, the fight peters out. I'm not talking about taking Pork Chop Hill, I'm talking day to day America. Take 300 rounds of 556 and applicable gear out running sometime and your going to see just what I mean. I'm fit, run my 6:45-7:00 minute mile, and I get tuckered out quickly with all that shit.


There is alot of assumption on your part here in parts 1 and 2.
You nor I nor anyone can definitively say what its going to look like when the shit hits the fan,

I've taken training and classes and instruction to learn how to shoot. Up until recently, I've shot in formal CMP/NRA highpower shoots as well as informal carbine type shoots. Ditto handguns and shotgun. I reload and shoot almost every week. Shooting well consistently is a perishable skill.

You choose .308 I choose 5.56. Guess we will have to disagree.
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Posted: 12/20/2010 4:25:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By coyotebait:
Originally Posted By Zamo:
I don't think you should limit yourself to just those two choices. Why not look at an AR in 6.8 SPC, or even a .308 rifle like a FAL, M1A, PTR-91, AR-10 or SCAR17S?
I have lots of rifles, and just laid out a lot of change to get the SCAR, and while spendy, it fits your criteria EXACTLY. If it's beyond budget, as I mentioned there are numerous other options.
The 5.56 is pretty anemic for whitetail, and isn't even legal in some states. .308 is a prime deer cartridge.


It's my understanding that this is a shit hits the fan scenario, society has collapsed in some form and now the O.P. is on his own in a survival situation. Therefore, the legality of White tail hunting with 223 does not apply.


x2

5.56 fits all your requirements. With a fast twist barrel and heavier 70+ grain loads you can kill any deer-sized creature on Earth within 200+ yards and men out to 500 or more.

With an accurate AR you can pick which eye you want to put the bullet through at 200 yards. Try that with anything chambered in x39.

Of course there are better rounds for hunting deer and bigger game but .223 and 5.56 will certainly work if need be.


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Posted: 12/20/2010 5:48:15 PM EST
If this is about initial cost of acquisition, then my answer is this.

If I have $500 alloted to buy 1 rifle for your scenario, I would much rather have a $500 30/30 as oppsed to a $500 ar15.

A $500 30/30 is going to be a top of the line, best the manufacturer makes type weapon.
A$500 Ar15, is going to be the bottom of the barrel Shittiest AR the manufacturer makes.
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Posted: 12/21/2010 7:28:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/21/2010 7:37:42 AM EST by SecurityForcesmember]
Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:
Originally Posted By SecurityForcesmember:
Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:
Originally Posted By Zamo:
Doesn't matter. You're now wasting ammo and animals by wounding one that will wander all over hell's half acre and probably never be recovered. *OR* You're going to be burning precious starving calories tracking the bleeding thing over hill and dale. Best to use the proper cartridge, not a varmint load. Bring enough gun.
If money is tight, as it is everywhere these days, does it really make sense to buy a gun that's only purpose is as a SHTF gun for some hypothetical doomsday that will never happen, or a rifle a person can actually use all the time RIGHT NOW?
Having said that, I stick by my original recommendation and recommend a 7.62x51 NATO battle rifle as encompassing the best of both worlds.


So do you have alot of SP hunting ammo for your "NATO battle rifle"?

Because if you don't then I'd rather hunt a deer with M193 Ball out of a bone stock A2 configured AR-15 than try and launch some M80 ball outta a "NATO battle rifle" at a deer for food gathering purposes post-balloon going up.

The M-193 ball will fragment inside the deer and provide a better chance of destroying the boiler room of the deer than the terminal ballistics of say Port or SA M80 ball in the same deer.

If using some 64 gr Power Points or Federal Fusion type bullets out of an AR, even more the better.

The whole point I'm making is that bullet selection and shot placement are many many times more important than using a "NATO battle rifle" or some Springfield Armory ad line of "bring enough gun".

AR with proper bullet > M80 ball outta a "NATO battle rifle" for almost everything except barrier penetration.

ETA:
I've got a STG-58 FAL as well as an AR-10 and a PSL among other .30cal auto loading rifles.

I like the extra power of the ,30cal rifles, however they incur such a weight penalty on ammo, mags, and the rifle itself that they are mostly regulated to static uses for me. I've been hiking and hunting with rifles before, they get heavy fast, especially after the 2 or 3rd mile or the 2nd or 3rh hour of walking around with it in your arms. And that was with just a hunting mag (5 or 10 rd mag) and maybe a few extra cartridges in the pack with a light day pack full of basic stuff that I take when I go outdoors (FA kit, water, matches, map/compass, etc). If I had to haul some serious bug out gear with me, carrying my FAL with the DSA flat top with an Eotech 552 along with 15 loaded mags sounds like hell. I'll take my M4 the same amount of mags and more ammo for less weight.



If he reloads like I do, I'm betting hes got a couple thousand rounds of suitable .308 hunting ammo. I reload .308 a lot, M118LR clones being the most I produce, but I load as much 155 and 178 AMAX as I can, and I load them to safe levels for gas guns. Fantastic on paper, at disance, and on people too. Pretty much the cats meow.

Enough with that "but my M-193 fragments" BS. M193 does fragment out of 16" - 20" barrels at the ranges that are likely to be used for in self defense, as in short range shooting. That argument has a VERY short effective range for what someone might say is "garunteed" fragmentationShort range is the range that things are gonna happen at. Sorry, your not going to be shooting people at 500+ yards. You are responsible for every round you send down range. Sooner or later you're gonna have to account for what you've done. Have fun explaining why you shoorting people at 500+ yards to a grand jury a year or two after everything gets sorted out.. M80 Ball ammunition (or M-193 for that matter) through the should/Head/Lungs will kill the same as a Remington Core-Lokt in .308...This doesn't really bolster your point. Shot placement is key whether its a 22lr or a .308 175gr BTHP. You can carry a lot more M193 or M855 than anytype of .308 loading. That is a fact. And if you only feel that you need 200rds of ammo, 200rds of 5.56 is ALWAYS gonna weigh less. Less weight = more options. I've carried heavy packs in different climates. Heavy packs suck. Given the option I will always opt for lighter equipment as long as its still viable.

The "you can't carry as much .223 as me" is as right as it is stupid. What? Seriously, when did I type you can't carry as much .223 as me? My point is that round per round, 5.56 is a weight savings compared to .308. Its just a simple fact.What are you doing fucking around with needing more than a few mags in some sort of SHTF scenario? I've no idea if or when resupply will be possible. If I don't have it with me, it doesn't exist. I don't plan on shooting anyone. Once bullets start being traded, all bets are off. I've got the ammo and mags because its better to have them as options then to need them and not have them. I can always discard them or cache them or just not use. Or just decide to not bring them/use them if I have to bug out. The more you shoot, possession does not imply intent in this case. Cause I've got a hundred loaded PMAGs doesn't mean that I intend to shoot 100rd mags at people when shtfthe more attention your getting. Who disputed this?I personally assure you of that Well thanks for your personal assurance on that.. I'm set with 4 mags in pouches, and one in the rifle. Thats OVERKILL to me. Opinions are like asses, everyone has one. Great, rock on with your 100rds of ammo. Good for you. I plan on keeping more on hand. And if I am using only 100rd of 5.56 in mags, its still a lighter load than what you've brought.I better not need that much. If its long term, I aint going anywhere for a freaking while. Like at least a week. Bugging out is rarely a good idea, and scooting around your hood living out your Red Dawn dreams wearing 300 rounds (in any caliber)is retarded. I'm not leaving unless radiation is wiping out my town. This is my house, and all of it is mine and my families. We've got little kids, we aren't about to pull the pin on living like nomads or roughing it until we absolutely must do that. I cannot carry much stuff compared to what I have at my finger tips here at home. Bugging out is the absolute worst/last case for us.

Go to where it has ACTUALLY hit the fan, and your going to notice a couple things.

1. They carry what they can get, and they make do. If its a fucking K98, so be it. Some ragheads can shoot irons. I suggest you (as in all of us) do the same.

2. They rarely have more than a few magazines. That goes for civvies, police, terrorists, and the military. You really don't need more than 4 or 5 mags of ammo, plain and simple.

People don't like to fight, especially with guns. Even "hardened" guys are wanting it over with quickly. Folks start running, and it gets chaotic. Before long, the fight peters out. I'm not talking about taking Pork Chop Hill, I'm talking day to day America. Take 300 rounds of 556 and applicable gear out running sometime and your going to see just what I mean. I'm fit, run my 6:45-7:00 minute mile, and I get tuckered out quickly with all that shit.


There is alot of assumption on your part here in parts 1 and 2.
You nor I nor anyone can definitively say what its going to look like when the shit hits the fan,

I've taken training and classes and instruction to learn how to shoot. Up until recently, I've shot in formal CMP/NRA highpower shoots as well as informal carbine type shoots. Ditto handguns and shotgun. I reload and shoot almost every week. Shooting well consistently is a perishable skill.

You choose .308 I choose 5.56. Guess we will have to disagree.


Dude, reading that quote tree just destroyed my eyesight. I'll touch on a couple of things though.

When I'm talking about fragmentation, its not going to happen every time, and relying on it to do just that(as in with short range shooting) is a poor idea. Better tools than that for the task at hand. Its common knowledge that the shorter the barrel you get, and the more distance you add between the shooter and the target the less effective that bullet becomes. This isn't about pro or anti (insert caliber here). I didn't mention what caliber I "chose", simply what I mostly load for. I have many 5.56 rifles, and plenty of ammo. I buy M855. Its what they all shoot pretty well, and it matches the ACOGS I like, so its a no brainer to me. Hand me an AR and a hundred rounds fo M855 and I won't feel undergunned.

You're also going to have to show me where I advocated "500 yard" shooting. I agree that its a bad idea, and answering for it may become difficult (albeit not impossible). I'm not going to play into the amount of ammo argument, either. I won't carry 200 rounds of any freaking caliber, its a waste of precious energy. I'm not on a mission intent to fight/destroy/maim.

Without serious freaking fireteam support, you won't last nearly long enough to blast your way through 200 rounds of 5.56....

And my Point 1 is from personal observation from my latest year in Iraq. I've never seen a mix of weapons like that, every checkpoint or rural police station was a weapons museum.

I've seen :
M16's (A1's, A2's, array or carbines)
AK47's from every corner of the globe
G3 and licensed HK copies
STG44's
PPSH 41 and 43's
Browning 1919's
PKM's
Lee-Enfield (almost every variant, varying states of decay)
Mauser's (yugo/german mostly)
FR-7's
Mosin-Nagant rifles
Dragunov copies(never saw the real deal)
Iranian MG42's
Yugo SKS's
Chinese SKS's
That little beretta submachinegun I have no idea of the name

As you can see, thats quite the list. I'll provide some pix when I can. Since I'm at work right now, it'll have to wait.

As for point number 2, they rarely had much ammo. And I mean I've never seen more than 4 or 5 mags, per person, and that was fairly well armed. Many after action reports taken show only 2 or 3 magazines of ammo fired (assuming you don't use rock 'n roll) So no, its not assumption, or conjecture, but rather "experience".

Just like someone would have to answer for shooting 500 yards, someone else will be having one hell of a time answering as to why they fired at something, someone, or a group of folks 200 or 300 times.

I'm sure some may argue whether Iraq really counts as SHTF. While I feel it wasn't a SHTF life for me, it is for Iraqi's, and seeing how they lived and operated told me a great deal. Folks growng their own food, general lawlessness, some good and some corrupt police, limited food at food marts, and no power grid (unless you have/had a generator, which people loved to try stealing).

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Posted: 12/21/2010 2:17:40 PM EST
Originally Posted By SecurityForcesmember:
Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:
Originally Posted By SecurityForcesmember:
Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:
Originally Posted By Zamo:
Doesn't matter. You're now wasting ammo and animals by wounding one that will wander all over hell's half acre and probably never be recovered. *OR* You're going to be burning precious starving calories tracking the bleeding thing over hill and dale. Best to use the proper cartridge, not a varmint load. Bring enough gun.
If money is tight, as it is everywhere these days, does it really make sense to buy a gun that's only purpose is as a SHTF gun for some hypothetical doomsday that will never happen, or a rifle a person can actually use all the time RIGHT NOW?
Having said that, I stick by my original recommendation and recommend a 7.62x51 NATO battle rifle as encompassing the best of both worlds.


So do you have alot of SP hunting ammo for your "NATO battle rifle"?

Because if you don't then I'd rather hunt a deer with M193 Ball out of a bone stock A2 configured AR-15 than try and launch some M80 ball outta a "NATO battle rifle" at a deer for food gathering purposes post-balloon going up.

The M-193 ball will fragment inside the deer and provide a better chance of destroying the boiler room of the deer than the terminal ballistics of say Port or SA M80 ball in the same deer.

If using some 64 gr Power Points or Federal Fusion type bullets out of an AR, even more the better.

The whole point I'm making is that bullet selection and shot placement are many many times more important than using a "NATO battle rifle" or some Springfield Armory ad line of "bring enough gun".

AR with proper bullet > M80 ball outta a "NATO battle rifle" for almost everything except barrier penetration.

ETA:
I've got a STG-58 FAL as well as an AR-10 and a PSL among other .30cal auto loading rifles.

I like the extra power of the ,30cal rifles, however they incur such a weight penalty on ammo, mags, and the rifle itself that they are mostly regulated to static uses for me. I've been hiking and hunting with rifles before, they get heavy fast, especially after the 2 or 3rd mile or the 2nd or 3rh hour of walking around with it in your arms. And that was with just a hunting mag (5 or 10 rd mag) and maybe a few extra cartridges in the pack with a light day pack full of basic stuff that I take when I go outdoors (FA kit, water, matches, map/compass, etc). If I had to haul some serious bug out gear with me, carrying my FAL with the DSA flat top with an Eotech 552 along with 15 loaded mags sounds like hell. I'll take my M4 the same amount of mags and more ammo for less weight.



If he reloads like I do, I'm betting hes got a couple thousand rounds of suitable .308 hunting ammo. I reload .308 a lot, M118LR clones being the most I produce, but I load as much 155 and 178 AMAX as I can, and I load them to safe levels for gas guns. Fantastic on paper, at disance, and on people too. Pretty much the cats meow.

Enough with that "but my M-193 fragments" BS. M193 does fragment out of 16" - 20" barrels at the ranges that are likely to be used for in self defense, as in short range shooting. That argument has a VERY short effective range for what someone might say is "garunteed" fragmentationShort range is the range that things are gonna happen at. Sorry, your not going to be shooting people at 500+ yards. You are responsible for every round you send down range. Sooner or later you're gonna have to account for what you've done. Have fun explaining why you shoorting people at 500+ yards to a grand jury a year or two after everything gets sorted out.. M80 Ball ammunition (or M-193 for that matter) through the should/Head/Lungs will kill the same as a Remington Core-Lokt in .308...This doesn't really bolster your point. Shot placement is key whether its a 22lr or a .308 175gr BTHP. You can carry a lot more M193 or M855 than anytype of .308 loading. That is a fact. And if you only feel that you need 200rds of ammo, 200rds of 5.56 is ALWAYS gonna weigh less. Less weight = more options. I've carried heavy packs in different climates. Heavy packs suck. Given the option I will always opt for lighter equipment as long as its still viable.

The "you can't carry as much .223 as me" is as right as it is stupid. What? Seriously, when did I type you can't carry as much .223 as me? My point is that round per round, 5.56 is a weight savings compared to .308. Its just a simple fact.What are you doing fucking around with needing more than a few mags in some sort of SHTF scenario? I've no idea if or when resupply will be possible. If I don't have it with me, it doesn't exist. I don't plan on shooting anyone. Once bullets start being traded, all bets are off. I've got the ammo and mags because its better to have them as options then to need them and not have them. I can always discard them or cache them or just not use. Or just decide to not bring them/use them if I have to bug out. The more you shoot, possession does not imply intent in this case. Cause I've got a hundred loaded PMAGs doesn't mean that I intend to shoot 100rd mags at people when shtfthe more attention your getting. Who disputed this?I personally assure you of that Well thanks for your personal assurance on that.. I'm set with 4 mags in pouches, and one in the rifle. Thats OVERKILL to me. Opinions are like asses, everyone has one. Great, rock on with your 100rds of ammo. Good for you. I plan on keeping more on hand. And if I am using only 100rd of 5.56 in mags, its still a lighter load than what you've brought.I better not need that much. If its long term, I aint going anywhere for a freaking while. Like at least a week. Bugging out is rarely a good idea, and scooting around your hood living out your Red Dawn dreams wearing 300 rounds (in any caliber)is retarded. I'm not leaving unless radiation is wiping out my town. This is my house, and all of it is mine and my families. We've got little kids, we aren't about to pull the pin on living like nomads or roughing it until we absolutely must do that. I cannot carry much stuff compared to what I have at my finger tips here at home. Bugging out is the absolute worst/last case for us.

Go to where it has ACTUALLY hit the fan, and your going to notice a couple things.

1. They carry what they can get, and they make do. If its a fucking K98, so be it. Some ragheads can shoot irons. I suggest you (as in all of us) do the same.

2. They rarely have more than a few magazines. That goes for civvies, police, terrorists, and the military. You really don't need more than 4 or 5 mags of ammo, plain and simple.

People don't like to fight, especially with guns. Even "hardened" guys are wanting it over with quickly. Folks start running, and it gets chaotic. Before long, the fight peters out. I'm not talking about taking Pork Chop Hill, I'm talking day to day America. Take 300 rounds of 556 and applicable gear out running sometime and your going to see just what I mean. I'm fit, run my 6:45-7:00 minute mile, and I get tuckered out quickly with all that shit.


There is alot of assumption on your part here in parts 1 and 2.
You nor I nor anyone can definitively say what its going to look like when the shit hits the fan,

I've taken training and classes and instruction to learn how to shoot. Up until recently, I've shot in formal CMP/NRA highpower shoots as well as informal carbine type shoots. Ditto handguns and shotgun. I reload and shoot almost every week. Shooting well consistently is a perishable skill.

You choose .308 I choose 5.56. Guess we will have to disagree.


Dude, reading that quote tree just destroyed my eyesight. I'll touch on a couple of things though.

When I'm talking about fragmentation, its not going to happen every time, and relying on it to do just that(as in with short range shooting) is a poor idea. Better tools than that for the task at hand. Its common knowledge that the shorter the barrel you get, and the more distance you add between the shooter and the target the less effective that bullet becomes. This isn't about pro or anti (insert caliber here). I didn't mention what caliber I "chose", simply what I mostly load for. I have many 5.56 rifles, and plenty of ammo. I buy M855. Its what they all shoot pretty well, and it matches the ACOGS I like, so its a no brainer to me. Hand me an AR and a hundred rounds fo M855 and I won't feel undergunned.

You're also going to have to show me where I advocated "500 yard" shooting. I agree that its a bad idea, and answering for it may become difficult (albeit not impossible). I'm not going to play into the amount of ammo argument, either. I won't carry 200 rounds of any freaking caliber, its a waste of precious energy. I'm not on a mission intent to fight/destroy/maim.

Without serious freaking fireteam support, you won't last nearly long enough to blast your way through 200 rounds of 5.56....

And my Point 1 is from personal observation from my latest year in Iraq. I've never seen a mix of weapons like that, every checkpoint or rural police station was a weapons museum.

I've seen :
M16's (A1's, A2's, array or carbines)
AK47's from every corner of the globe
G3 and licensed HK copies
STG44's
PPSH 41 and 43's
Browning 1919's
PKM's
Lee-Enfield (almost every variant, varying states of decay)
Mauser's (yugo/german mostly)
FR-7's
Mosin-Nagant rifles
Dragunov copies(never saw the real deal)
Iranian MG42's
Yugo SKS's
Chinese SKS's
That little beretta submachinegun I have no idea of the name

As you can see, thats quite the list. I'll provide some pix when I can. Since I'm at work right now, it'll have to wait.

As for point number 2, they rarely had much ammo. And I mean I've never seen more than 4 or 5 mags, per person, and that was fairly well armed. Many after action reports taken show only 2 or 3 magazines of ammo fired (assuming you don't use rock 'n roll) So no, its not assumption, or conjecture, but rather "experience".

Just like someone would have to answer for shooting 500 yards, someone else will be having one hell of a time answering as to why they fired at something, someone, or a group of folks 200 or 300 times.

I'm sure some may argue whether Iraq really counts as SHTF. While I feel it wasn't a SHTF life for me, it is for Iraqi's, and seeing how they lived and operated told me a great deal. Folks growng their own food, general lawlessness, some good and some corrupt police, limited food at food marts, and no power grid (unless you have/had a generator, which people loved to try stealing).



Fragmentation, ballistics data aside, I had a thought. (yes, it was painful) Wouldn't a good way to get some idea of what guns, ammo, and other supplies that you would possibly need in a shtf scenario be to take a vacation from work, suit up with all of the supplies that you think you may need, and head in to the hills for 5 days? As far as homestead defense, kinda a moot point in that you won't have to move around with it so you can stock up on ammo for everything.
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Posted: 12/22/2010 4:18:33 AM EST


Fragmentation, ballistics data aside, I had a thought. (yes, it was painful) Wouldn't a good way to get some idea of what guns, ammo, and other supplies that you would possibly need in a shtf scenario be to take a vacation from work, suit up with all of the supplies that you think you may need, and head in to the hills for 5 days? As far as homestead defense, kinda a moot point in that you won't have to move around with it so you can stock up on ammo for everything.


It would be. In fact, Ibelieve there are classes help out in the mid/southwest that teach "bugging out", or something very close to it. If Bugging out was a survival plane and you've never had training on traveling light/fast like that, it would be good to attend.

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Posted: 12/22/2010 4:36:16 AM EST
Definitely a .223 or 5.56 will take down a deer and it is legal in many states to use these for hunting them. 7.62x39 is a nice round similar in ballistics to the 30-30. It will get the job done as well.

If I didn't own an AR-15, I would seriously consider an SKS in 7.62x39 to fill this dual role you asked about.
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Posted: 12/22/2010 9:43:08 AM EST
Thats a good point. 500 bucks could get one a very nice SKS and ammo on stripper clips.

SKS rifles can hold their own if someone practices with it. I woulnd't take an opponent armed with one very lightly at all
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Posted: 12/22/2010 10:50:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By KnightofTheOldeCode:

Which would serve the dual role of moderate range whitetail and smaller game hunting as well be an effective 300 hundred yard
defensive cartridge. Opinions appreciated.


Also feel free to speak to 7.62x39 as a semi auto substitue for the 30-30


223 is a proven performer for self defense and is available in quality rifles that are easy to maintain and repair. It's a light enough round that, when going for one shot kills on deer sized game, you'll want to use a bonded soft point that gets good deep penetration. For that matter, your bonded soft point is probably a better round for defensive use, unless the badguys are wearing armor.

300 yards is pushing the practical limits of 30-30. On the upside, 30-30 ammo is common as dirt and isn't in as high of demand as 223; your odds of scrounging it are probably better. It's also not a high intensity cartridge, so the rifles that chamber it last a long time.

You might also consider a 45-70 lever action. It can be reloaded with Holy Black and cast boolits, both of which can be hand made with the right tools and materials. A 45-70 stoked with black powder cartridges is far superior to an AR-15 with no ammo, after all. For the same reasons, a 357 Magnum or 44 Magnum lever gun might be a decent choice as well.
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Posted: 12/22/2010 10:55:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By Zamo:
Doesn't matter. You're now wasting ammo and animals by wounding one that will wander all over hell's half acre and probably never be recovered. *OR* You're going to be burning precious starving calories tracking the bleeding thing over hill and dale. Best to use the proper cartridge, not a varmint load. Bring enough gun.
If money is tight, as it is everywhere these days, does it really make sense to buy a gun that's only purpose is as a SHTF gun for some hypothetical doomsday that will never happen, or a rifle a person can actually use all the time RIGHT NOW?
Having said that, I stick by my original recommendation and recommend a 7.62x51 NATO battle rifle as encompassing the best of both worlds.


And if one can't afford a 308 rifle and the ammo for it, don't discount the lowly Mosin Nagant with its powerful and cheap 7.62x54R. For that matter, you could get a PSL that shoots the same ammo and that will give you optics for making longer shots.
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Posted: 12/22/2010 11:00:07 AM EST
Originally Posted By Moondog:
I also enjoy the "lone survivor" concept in fiction, however I believe in safety in numbers. Depending on how far you' are from your camp or shelter, a hunting party might be more sensible, especially when it comes to dragging a deer or other larger food source back to camp. Same applies if you find yourself in a sticky situation. With two or more people, you can ambush an invader, or give an attacker more than they bargained for.

Depending on the locale, trapping small game may be more economical than wasting precious ammo.

Regarding the question of .308 hunting ammo, would it be possible with a 147gr FMJ to file the tip off, and turn it into flat-tipped soft point?


That's very unsafe due to the differing construction of FMJ and soft points. With soft points, molten lead is poured in the top and the base of the bullet is enclosed. With FMJ, the tip is closed and lead is poured into the bottom. Having one end of the bullet's lead exposed is OK. If you file off the tip of 147gr 308 FMJ, then you expose the core at both ends. What will eventually happen is that pressure from firing will separate the lead core from its jacket, leaving the jacket lodged in the bore. Next shot = kaboom.
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Posted: 12/22/2010 12:15:40 PM EST
Originally Posted By JamesP81:
Originally Posted By Moondog:
I also enjoy the "lone survivor" concept in fiction, however I believe in safety in numbers. Depending on how far you' are from your camp or shelter, a hunting party might be more sensible, especially when it comes to dragging a deer or other larger food source back to camp. Same applies if you find yourself in a sticky situation. With two or more people, you can ambush an invader, or give an attacker more than they bargained for.

Depending on the locale, trapping small game may be more economical than wasting precious ammo.

Regarding the question of .308 hunting ammo, would it be possible with a 147gr FMJ to file the tip off, and turn it into flat-tipped soft point?


That's very unsafe due to the differing construction of FMJ and soft points. With soft points, molten lead is poured in the top and the base of the bullet is enclosed. With FMJ, the tip is closed and lead is poured into the bottom. Having one end of the bullet's lead exposed is OK. If you file off the tip of 147gr 308 FMJ, then you expose the core at both ends. What will eventually happen is that pressure from firing will separate the lead core from its jacket, leaving the jacket lodged in the bore. Next shot = kaboom.


Pretty sure they swage the lead core then seat the core into a copper jacket. No molten pouring.
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Posted: 12/22/2010 1:07:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By Moondog:
I also enjoy the "lone survivor" concept in fiction, however I believe in safety in numbers. Depending on how far you' are from your camp or shelter, a hunting party might be more sensible, especially when it comes to dragging a deer or other larger food source back to camp. Same applies if you find yourself in a sticky situation. With two or more people, you can ambush an invader, or give an attacker more than they bargained for.

Depending on the locale, trapping small game may be more economical than wasting precious ammo.

Regarding the question of .308 hunting ammo, would it be possible with a 147gr FMJ to file the tip off, and turn it into flat-tipped soft point?




I wouldn't recommend that. You can't trust the performance at that point. A 308, whether it's SP of FMJ, will kill a deer. Just place your shot correctly. Obviously the soft point, or some sort of ballistic tip is preferred, so buy a couple boxes of it.
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Posted: 12/22/2010 1:20:58 PM EST
I've taken quite a lot of deer with my handi-rifle in .223. Don't underestimate the caliber, just shoot it good. I've also shot a lot of deer with a 30-30. I like the 30-30 for a survival situation because you know you're gonna be able to shoot larger game with it, and if you run across the regular vagabond looking for trouble a 30-30 lever action is more than capable of keeping your ass alive. I also like the AR or any other assault rifle for survival because you get a lot of lead downrange and everyone knows more firepower = advantage. I have both so my answer is; get both

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Posted: 12/22/2010 1:57:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By C-S:
Originally Posted By Specop_007:
I'd rather have the AR in a defensive situation and the 30-30 in a hunting situation.

AR15 has better ergonomics, faster rate of fire, more accurate (Or easier to be accurate) and faster reload.

30-30 has better terminal ballistics for deer, but is usually a lever action so slower to fire and slower to reload. I wouldnt necessarily feel undergunned with a 30-30 depending on who I was defending against though. Just some hoodrats looking for an easy mark I'd feel fine. But a determined well armed foe? I'd be wishing for my AR right quick I think. An SKS does a decent job of bridging some of the shortcoming between the 30-30 and the AR though. I loved my SKS, I wouldnt feel undergunned with it in most situations.

My thoughts.


I agree with his post for the most part...

especially the part in red.


me too also....
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Posted: 12/22/2010 5:15:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/22/2010 5:19:24 PM EST by bassboy9123]
I would think that if you want to keep the accuracy of an AR-15 and have ample knockdown power for deer and other medium game then a 6.8 would be a good compromise. A .223 or 5.56 offers great accuracy but you had better hope that the bullet doesn't yaw when it hits your prey and also hope it doesn't hit anything while in the air. A 30-30 is a brush gun. You can, and I have, shoot at a deer through thick brush and that bullet will go straight through and put the deer down. Try that with a 5.56 and you will be disappointed. They're just two different calibers that were created for two different reasons.

Also, usually, a 30-30 is a lever-action gun such as the Winchester 94 or Marlin 336. You wouldn't want to be fooling with a lever-action gun in combat. Sure, they are great when nothing is stuck in them; but that lever and open space is a jam or failure waiting to happen. A semi-automatic OR fully-automatic would be much more useful.

Also, typically they only hold ~10 rounds compared to 30 in an AR. You would want to consider reloading time, as a tube loaded 30-30 isn't exactly fast-loaded.

There are bullets that are made to make the 30-30 more like a 5.56 such as the Hornady Lever-Evolution load which is a flat-shooting bullet:


But, IMO, is no substitute for the 5.56.

I personally have a 30-30 for hunting and a 5.56 AR15 for SHTF. You would have to decide which one you wanted to take...or go with a compromise caliber as stated earlier. I would love to build a 6.8SPC to have for all of the above (aside from small game hunting).

If you are wanting to do small and large game hunting, while still having some oomph for taking someone down, maybe consider a .22LR or even a .22 Magnum (even though a magnum is a bit much for some small game but .22LR isn't going to stand a chance against some larger game [such as hogs with tough skin] unless placed in exactly the right spot).

I don't know what your version of SHTF is, but mine does NOT include electricity to keep meat edible. So for me, I will have to make sure that what I kill I can eat that day.


Have you ever heard of preservation? Dehydration? Salt-curing?

There are many ancient techniques for preserving meat and keeping it edible without electricity.
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Posted: 12/22/2010 5:58:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By bassboy9123:
I would think that if you want to keep the accuracy of an AR-15 and have ample knockdown power for deer and other medium game then a 6.8 would be a good compromise. A .223 or 5.56 offers great accuracy but you had better hope that the bullet doesn't yaw when it hits your prey and also hope it doesn't hit anything while in the air. A 30-30 is a brush gun. You can, and I have, shoot at a deer through thick brush and that bullet will go straight through and put the deer down. Try that with a 5.56 and you will be disappointed. They're just two different calibers that were created for two different reasons.

Also, usually, a 30-30 is a lever-action gun such as the Winchester 94 or Marlin 336. You wouldn't want to be fooling with a lever-action gun in combat. Sure, they are great when nothing is stuck in them; but that lever and open space is a jam or failure waiting to happen. A semi-automatic OR fully-automatic would be much more useful.

Also, typically they only hold ~10 rounds compared to 30 in an AR. You would want to consider reloading time, as a tube loaded 30-30 isn't exactly fast-loaded.

There are bullets that are made to make the 30-30 more like a 5.56 such as the Hornady Lever-Evolution load which is a flat-shooting bullet:
http://www.bullshooterssupply.com/store/images/hornady_leverevolution_30-30_160_grain.jpg?osCsid=vgwgddnczf

But, IMO, is no substitute for the 5.56.

I personally have a 30-30 for hunting and a 5.56 AR15 for SHTF. You would have to decide which one you wanted to take...or go with a compromise caliber as stated earlier. I would love to build a 6.8SPC to have for all of the above (aside from small game hunting).

If you are wanting to do small and large game hunting, while still having some oomph for taking someone down, maybe consider a .22LR or even a .22 Magnum (even though a magnum is a bit much for some small game but .22LR isn't going to stand a chance against some larger game [such as hogs with tough skin] unless placed in exactly the right spot).

I don't know what your version of SHTF is, but mine does NOT include electricity to keep meat edible. So for me, I will have to make sure that what I kill I can eat that day.


Have you ever heard of preservation? Dehydration? Salt-curing?

There are many ancient techniques for preserving meat and keeping it edible without electricity
.


Sure, but the op just mentioned bugging out. If he's got somewhere to go that he can stay, like a cabin, or some sort of shelter, preserving would be great. When I hear "bugging out" I envision being on the move. I wouldn't want to be on the move with all the gear needed for survival, plus a half eaten deer. The mountains around me are loaded with bear and mountain lion. You could very quickly end up on the menu. I think it's important to note that everybody's situation is different. If I were single, I could grab my go bag, a bolt gun or a semi auto and head for the hills. The majority of the weight would be ammo, but sense I'm married with 3 small kids, I'm staying put. I live in a culdesac and know all my neighbors. I would be better off working with friends and neighbors, and forming hunting parties. Obviously, every plan is subject to change depending on what the scenarios are. Hopefully, this is all just "academic". Unfortunately, the old techniques of food preservation have been forgotten by most. Would be a very handy skill to relearn.
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Posted: 12/22/2010 6:12:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/22/2010 6:14:45 PM EST by bassboy9123]
Originally Posted By coyotebait:
Sure, but the op just mentioned bugging out. If he's got somewhere to go that he can stay, like a cabin, or some sort of shelter, preserving would be great. When I hear "bugging out" I envision being on the move. I wouldn't want to be on the move with all the gear needed for survival, plus a half eaten deer. The mountains around me are loaded with bear and mountain lion. You could very quickly end up on the menu. I think it's important to note that everybody's situation is different. If I were single, I could grab my go bag, a bolt gun or a semi auto and head for the hills. The majority of the weight would be ammo, but sense I'm married with 3 small kids, I'm staying put. I live in a culdesac and know all my neighbors. I would be better off working with friends and neighbors, and forming hunting parties. Obviously, every plan is subject to change depending on what the scenarios are. Hopefully, this is all just "academic". Unfortunately, the old techniques of food preservation have been forgotten by most. Would be a very handy skill to relearn.


I would be better off staying in-house as well. I have good vantage points from every side of my house upstairs. 2 windows on each side of the house that would be ideal for defense positions.

In my area, deer would be the largest animal I have to worry about. Bears and mountain lions aren't common here, and I wouldn't be worried about them as such. I have a tight-knit neighborhood of gun-owners (That is Georgia for you), and we would probably form hunting parties and patrol systems as well and would benefit from looking out for each other.

I strongly agree, it would be VERY beneficial for most people to learn the old techniques of food preservation. Season changes, caliber limitations, availability, ability to hunt (ex: injuries), and many other factors could force someone to shoot large prey to save for weeks instead of shooting one animal to live on per day. Many techniques such as dehydration, salt-curing, smoking, charcoal packing (not grocery store type) and others could literally be life savers.

And also, very good point about everyone's situation being different. I think most people forget to think about what is actually around them when trying to prepare for a SHTF situation. That is a critical and crucial tactic for proper preparation.
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Posted: 12/22/2010 6:49:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By bassboy9123:
Originally Posted By coyotebait:
Sure, but the op just mentioned bugging out. If he's got somewhere to go that he can stay, like a cabin, or some sort of shelter, preserving would be great. When I hear "bugging out" I envision being on the move. I wouldn't want to be on the move with all the gear needed for survival, plus a half eaten deer. The mountains around me are loaded with bear and mountain lion. You could very quickly end up on the menu. I think it's important to note that everybody's situation is different. If I were single, I could grab my go bag, a bolt gun or a semi auto and head for the hills. The majority of the weight would be ammo, but sense I'm married with 3 small kids, I'm staying put. I live in a culdesac and know all my neighbors. I would be better off working with friends and neighbors, and forming hunting parties. Obviously, every plan is subject to change depending on what the scenarios are. Hopefully, this is all just "academic". Unfortunately, the old techniques of food preservation have been forgotten by most. Would be a very handy skill to relearn.


I would be better off staying in-house as well. I have good vantage points from every side of my house upstairs. 2 windows on each side of the house that would be ideal for defense positions.

In my area, deer would be the largest animal I have to worry about. Bears and mountain lions aren't common here, and I wouldn't be worried about them as such. I have a tight-knit neighborhood of gun-owners (That is Georgia for you), and we would probably form hunting parties and patrol systems as well and would benefit from looking out for each other.

I strongly agree, it would be VERY beneficial for most people to learn the old techniques of food preservation. Season changes, caliber limitations, availability, ability to hunt (ex: injuries), and many other factors could force someone to shoot large prey to save for weeks instead of shooting one animal to live on per day. Many techniques such as dehydration, salt-curing, smoking, charcoal packing (not grocery store type) and others could literally be life savers.

And also, very good point about everyone's situation being different. I think most people forget to think about what is actually around them when trying to prepare for a SHTF situation. That is a critical and crucial tactic for proper preparation.


If I lived in a big city, such as L.A., which I'm about 40 miles outside of, bugging out as fast and inconspicuously as I can would be top priority, small kids and all, but I'm in a small town (by Kalifornia standards) so staying put will work. I'd feel MUCH better if I where further into the mountains though......cough.and in another state.cough cough)
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Posted: 12/22/2010 7:57:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By bassboy9123:
I would think that if you want to keep the accuracy of an AR-15 and have ample knockdown power for deer and other medium game then a 6.8 would be a good compromise. A .223 or 5.56 offers great accuracy but you had better hope that the bullet doesn't yaw when it hits your prey and also hope it doesn't hit anything while in the air. A 30-30 is a brush gun. You can, and I have, shoot at a deer through thick brush and that bullet will go straight through and put the deer down. Try that with a 5.56 and you will be disappointed. They're just two different calibers that were created for two different reasons.

Also, usually, a 30-30 is a lever-action gun such as the Winchester 94 or Marlin 336. You wouldn't want to be fooling with a lever-action gun in combat. Sure, they are great when nothing is stuck in them; but that lever and open space is a jam or failure waiting to happen. A semi-automatic OR fully-automatic would be much more useful.

Also, typically they only hold ~10 rounds compared to 30 in an AR. You would want to consider reloading time, as a tube loaded 30-30 isn't exactly fast-loaded.

There are bullets that are made to make the 30-30 more like a 5.56 such as the Hornady Lever-Evolution load which is a flat-shooting bullet:
http://www.bullshooterssupply.com/store/images/hornady_leverevolution_30-30_160_grain.jpg?osCsid=vgwgddnczf

But, IMO, is no substitute for the 5.56.

I personally have a 30-30 for hunting and a 5.56 AR15 for SHTF. You would have to decide which one you wanted to take...or go with a compromise caliber as stated earlier. I would love to build a 6.8SPC to have for all of the above (aside from small game hunting).

If you are wanting to do small and large game hunting, while still having some oomph for taking someone down, maybe consider a .22LR or even a .22 Magnum (even though a magnum is a bit much for some small game but .22LR isn't going to stand a chance against some larger game [such as hogs with tough skin] unless placed in exactly the right spot).

I don't know what your version of SHTF is, but mine does NOT include electricity to keep meat edible. So for me, I will have to make sure that what I kill I can eat that day.


Have you ever heard of preservation? Dehydration? Salt-curing?

There are many ancient techniques for preserving meat and keeping it edible without electricity.


Nothing is brush proof. If you shot it with a 30-30 after trimming the bushes you could repeat that with any other caliber with roughly equal results. Its a "brush gun" not because it has some laser like properties but rather because ballistically it sucks in anything but close range shots found in brush.
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Posted: 12/22/2010 8:08:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By Specop_007:
Originally Posted By bassboy9123:
I would think that if you want to keep the accuracy of an AR-15 and have ample knockdown power for deer and other medium game then a 6.8 would be a good compromise. A .223 or 5.56 offers great accuracy but you had better hope that the bullet doesn't yaw when it hits your prey and also hope it doesn't hit anything while in the air. A 30-30 is a brush gun. You can, and I have, shoot at a deer through thick brush and that bullet will go straight through and put the deer down. Try that with a 5.56 and you will be disappointed. They're just two different calibers that were created for two different reasons.

Also, usually, a 30-30 is a lever-action gun such as the Winchester 94 or Marlin 336. You wouldn't want to be fooling with a lever-action gun in combat. Sure, they are great when nothing is stuck in them; but that lever and open space is a jam or failure waiting to happen. A semi-automatic OR fully-automatic would be much more useful.

Also, typically they only hold ~10 rounds compared to 30 in an AR. You would want to consider reloading time, as a tube loaded 30-30 isn't exactly fast-loaded.

There are bullets that are made to make the 30-30 more like a 5.56 such as the Hornady Lever-Evolution load which is a flat-shooting bullet:
http://www.bullshooterssupply.com/store/images/hornady_leverevolution_30-30_160_grain.jpg?osCsid=vgwgddnczf

But, IMO, is no substitute for the 5.56.

I personally have a 30-30 for hunting and a 5.56 AR15 for SHTF. You would have to decide which one you wanted to take...or go with a compromise caliber as stated earlier. I would love to build a 6.8SPC to have for all of the above (aside from small game hunting).

If you are wanting to do small and large game hunting, while still having some oomph for taking someone down, maybe consider a .22LR or even a .22 Magnum (even though a magnum is a bit much for some small game but .22LR isn't going to stand a chance against some larger game [such as hogs with tough skin] unless placed in exactly the right spot).

I don't know what your version of SHTF is, but mine does NOT include electricity to keep meat edible. So for me, I will have to make sure that what I kill I can eat that day.


Have you ever heard of preservation? Dehydration? Salt-curing?

There are many ancient techniques for preserving meat and keeping it edible without electricity.


Nothing is brush proof. If you shot it with a 30-30 after trimming the bushes you could repeat that with any other caliber with roughly equal results. Its a "brush gun" not because it has some laser like properties but rather because ballistically it sucks in anything but close range shots found in brush.


X3 for the love of the FSM, there is no small arms bullet that "sheds brush" better than one or another. You shoot .338 Lapua or .223 through any brush and it'll get deflected, randomly and badly.


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Posted: 12/22/2010 9:16:35 PM EST
I think a .30 caliber cartridge such as the .30-30, .308, or 7.62x39mm is a better general purpose cartridge than .223..... especially if you live in a area with CXP3 class game.
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Posted: 12/24/2010 3:53:12 AM EST
Thanks for the great responses gents!!
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