- Mar 2010
- Posts: 319
Link To Post:
Posted: 12/21/2010 2:17:40 PM EST
|Originally Posted By SecurityForcesmember:
Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:
Originally Posted By SecurityForcesmember:
Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:
Originally Posted By Zamo:
Doesn't matter. You're now wasting ammo and animals by wounding one that will wander all over hell's half acre and probably never be recovered. *OR* You're going to be burning precious starving calories tracking the bleeding thing over hill and dale. Best to use the proper cartridge, not a varmint load. Bring enough gun.
If money is tight, as it is everywhere these days, does it really make sense to buy a gun that's only purpose is as a SHTF gun for some hypothetical doomsday that will never happen, or a rifle a person can actually use all the time RIGHT NOW?
Having said that, I stick by my original recommendation and recommend a 7.62x51 NATO battle rifle as encompassing the best of both worlds.
So do you have alot of SP hunting ammo for your "NATO battle rifle"?
Because if you don't then I'd rather hunt a deer with M193 Ball out of a bone stock A2 configured AR-15 than try and launch some M80 ball outta a "NATO battle rifle" at a deer for food gathering purposes post-balloon going up.
The M-193 ball will fragment inside the deer and provide a better chance of destroying the boiler room of the deer than the terminal ballistics of say Port or SA M80 ball in the same deer.
If using some 64 gr Power Points or Federal Fusion type bullets out of an AR, even more the better.
The whole point I'm making is that bullet selection and shot placement are many many times more important than using a "NATO battle rifle" or some Springfield Armory ad line of "bring enough gun".
AR with proper bullet > M80 ball outta a "NATO battle rifle" for almost everything except barrier penetration.
I've got a STG-58 FAL as well as an AR-10 and a PSL among other .30cal auto loading rifles.
I like the extra power of the ,30cal rifles, however they incur such a weight penalty on ammo, mags, and the rifle itself that they are mostly regulated to static uses for me. I've been hiking and hunting with rifles before, they get heavy fast, especially after the 2 or 3rd mile or the 2nd or 3rh hour of walking around with it in your arms. And that was with just a hunting mag (5 or 10 rd mag) and maybe a few extra cartridges in the pack with a light day pack full of basic stuff that I take when I go outdoors (FA kit, water, matches, map/compass, etc). If I had to haul some serious bug out gear with me, carrying my FAL with the DSA flat top with an Eotech 552 along with 15 loaded mags sounds like he
. I'll take my M4 the same amount of mags and more ammo for less weight.
If he reloads like I do, I'm betting hes got a couple thousand rounds of suitable .308 hunting ammo. I reload .308 a lot, M118LR clones being the most I produce, but I load as much 155 and 178 AMAX as I can, and I load them to safe levels for gas guns. Fantastic on paper, at disance, and on people too. Pretty much the cats meow.
Enough with that "but my M-193 fragments" BS. M193 does fragment out of 16" - 20" barrels at the ranges that are likely to be used for in self defense, as in short range shooting.
That argument has a VERY short effective range for what someone might say is "garunteed" fragmentationShort range is the range that things are gonna happen at. Sorry, your not going to be shooting people at 500+ yards. You are responsible for every round you send down range. Sooner or later you're gonna have to account for what you've done. Have fun explaining why you shoorting people at 500+ yards to a grand jury a year or two after everything gets sorted out.
. M80 Ball ammunition (or M-193 for that matter) through the should/Head/Lungs will kill the same as a Remington Core-Lokt in .308...This doesn't really bolster your point. Shot placement is key whether its a 22lr or a .308 175gr BTHP. You can carry a lot more M193 or M855 than anytype of .308 loading. That is a fact. And if you only feel that you need 200rds of ammo, 200rds of 5.56 is ALWAYS gonna weigh less. Less weight = more options. I've carried heavy packs in different climates. Heavy packs suck. Given the option I will always opt for lighter equipment as long as its still viable.
The "you can't carry as much .223 as me" is as right as it is stupid. What? Seriously, when did I type you can't carry as much .223 as me? My point is that round per round, 5.56 is a weight savings compared to .308. Its just a simple fact.
What are you doing fucking around with needing more than a few mags in some sort of SHTF scenario? I've no idea if or when resupply will be possible. If I don't have it with me, it doesn't exist. I don't plan on shooting anyone. Once bullets start being traded, all bets are off. I've got the ammo and mags because its better to have them as options then to need them and not have them. I can always discard them or cache them or just not use. Or just decide to not bring them/use them if I have to bug out.
The more you shoot, possession does not imply intent in this case. Cause I've got a hundred loaded PMAGs doesn't mean that I intend to shoot 100rd mags at people when shtf
the more attention your getting. Who disputed this?
I personally assure you of that Well thanks for your personal assurance on that.
. I'm set with 4 mags in pouches, and one in the rifle. Thats OVERKILL to me. Opinions are like asses, everyone has one. Great, rock on with your 100rds of ammo. Good for you. I plan on keeping more on hand. And if I am using only 100rd of 5.56 in mags, its still a lighter load than what you've brought.
I better not need that much. If its long term, I aint going anywhere for a freaking while. Like at least a week. Bugging out is rarely a good idea, and scooting around your hood living out your Red Dawn dreams wearing 300 rounds (in any caliber)is retarded. I'm not leaving unless radiation is wiping out my town. This is my house, and all of it is mine and my families. We've got little kids, we aren't about to pull the pin on living like nomads or roughing it until we absolutely must do that. I cannot carry much stuff compared to what I have at my finger tips here at home. Bugging out is the absolute worst/last case for us.
Go to where it has ACTUALLY hit the fan, and your going to notice a couple things.
1. They carry what they can get, and they make do. If its a fucking K98, so be it. Some ragheads can shoot irons. I suggest you (as in all of us) do the same.
2. They rarely have more than a few magazines. That goes for civvies, police, terrorists, and the military. You really don't need more than 4 or 5 mags of ammo, plain and simple.
People don't like to fight, especially with guns
. Even "hardened" guys are wanting it over with quickly. Folks start running, and it gets chaotic. Before long, the fight peters out. I'm not talking about taking Pork Chop Hill, I'm talking day to day America. Take 300 rounds of 556 and applicable gear out running sometime and your going to see just what I mean. I'm fit, run my 6:45-7:00 minute mile, and I get tuckered out quickly with all that shit.
There is alot of assumption on your part here in parts 1 and 2.
You nor I nor anyone can definitively say what its going to look like when the shit hits the fan,
I've taken training and classes and instruction to learn how to shoot. Up until recently, I've shot in formal CMP/NRA highpower shoots as well as informal carbine type shoots. Ditto handguns and shotgun. I reload and shoot almost every week. Shooting well consistently is a perishable skill.
You choose .308 I choose 5.56. Guess we will have to disagree.
Dude, reading that quote tree just destroyed my eyesight. I'll touch on a couple of things though.
When I'm talking about fragmentation, its not going to happen every time, and relying on it to do just that(as in with short range shooting) is a poor idea. Better tools than that for the task at hand. Its common knowledge that the shorter the barrel you get, and the more distance you add between the shooter and the target the less effective that bullet becomes. This isn't about pro or anti (insert caliber here). I didn't mention what caliber I "chose", simply what I mostly load for. I have many 5.56 rifles, and plenty of ammo. I buy M855. Its what they all shoot pretty well, and it matches the ACOGS I like, so its a no brainer to me. Hand me an AR and a hundred rounds fo M855 and I won't feel undergunned.
You're also going to have to show me where I advocated "500 yard" shooting. I agree that its a bad idea, and answering for it may become difficult (albeit not impossible). I'm not going to play into the amount of ammo argument, either. I won't carry 200 rounds of any freaking caliber, its a waste of precious energy. I'm not on a mission intent to fight/destroy/maim.
Without serious freaking fireteam support, you won't last nearly long enough to blast your way through 200 rounds of 5.56....
And my Point 1 is from personal observation from my latest year in Iraq. I've never seen a mix of weapons like that, every checkpoint or rural police station was a weapons museum.
I've seen :
M16's (A1's, A2's, array or carbines)
AK47's from every corner of the globe
G3 and licensed HK copies
PPSH 41 and 43's
Lee-Enfield (almost every variant, varying states of decay)
Mauser's (yugo/german mostly)
Dragunov copies(never saw the real deal)
That little beretta submachinegun I have no idea of the name
As you can see, thats quite the list. I'll provide some pix when I can. Since I'm at work right now, it'll have to wait.
As for point number 2, they rarely had much ammo. And I mean I've never seen more than 4 or 5 mags, per person, and that was fairly well armed. Many after action reports taken show only 2 or 3 magazines of ammo fired (assuming you don't use rock 'n roll) So no, its not assumption, or conjecture, but rather "experience".
Just like someone would have to answer for shooting 500 yards, someone else will be having one hell of a time answering as to why they fired at something, someone, or a group of folks 200 or 300 times.
I'm sure some may argue whether Iraq really counts as SHTF. While I feel it wasn't a SHTF life for me, it is for Iraqi's, and seeing how they lived and operated told me a great deal. Folks growng their own food, general lawlessness, some good and some corrupt police, limited food at food marts, and no power grid (unless you have/had a generator, which people loved to try stealing).
Fragmentation, ballistics data aside, I had a thought. (yes, it was painful) Wouldn't a good way to get some idea of what guns, ammo, and other supplies that you would possibly need in a shtf scenario be to take a vacation from work, suit up with all of the supplies that you think you may need, and head in to the hills for 5 days? As far as homestead defense, kinda a moot point in that you won't have to move around with it so you can stock up on ammo for everything.